Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

Reading Alex Poger's post on usenet about "10 Whammies in Dominions" <http://Groups.google.com/Groups?hl=e...6hl%3Den%26lr% 3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dfda648a3.0203291351.1420401b%2540postin g.google.com%26rnum%3D1> I realized that several of these won't work in Dom II, or at least not to the same effect. This made me wonder - what will take their place? (I'm thinking here particularly of #6)

The strategies that won't work (as well) in Dom II are:

2> Instant Magical Movement
someone said on another post that 'gateway' was no longer in the game - or maybe changed from how it was in Dom I. This is the only instant movement spell that allows the whole army to move.

3> Magic Duel
this has been tweaked - maybe it's still dangerous, but probably not as much as it was (when it was bugged).

6> Battlefield Domination Spells
this refers to warding your troops and then calling down the appropriate devastation spell, to which your troops will be completely immune. Of course, most wards don't give total protection any more, so it seems this won't be as rewarding of a strategy as it once was.

7> Storms
now you can shoot in storms, but just with limited range (I think), so while storms will have an effect, it won't be nearly so potent of a strategy as it once was.

So would the beta-testers care to comment on what 'army-killing' strategies they use? Or does anyone else have any ideas?

[ October 15, 2003, 14:42: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

Supercombatants have also been tuned down BTW...

Faery Trod also let's you to teleport the whole army, but only inside your Dominion.

I would say that powerfull bless efects+Sacred troops may be one of the new "killer aps".

I can already see KotC's with flaming weapons charging towards enemies...

[ October 15, 2003, 14:42: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you could place here the whole list so I can comment on that?

6 is definitely gone since wards no longer give full protection nor do they affect all your troops and still they cost gems. So that is no-go.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

I played Man and Pangaea alot with a tactic of finding a weak province, doing a "call" spell to drop units there and take it over, then build up. I had spots all over the map with castle, temple, lab that I could spread out from.

The limitations on travel spells is going to make it really hard to put a temple and lab in far places early in the game. I will have to walk mages and priests to each spot. Im unhappy with this since I didnt see these as being strategys that were massively imbalanced.

I want MORE strategy varients, not less. I dont like being pressed into playing a particular type of game. I dont mind them tweaking things so that any strategy being overused gets cut back, but I dont like them disappearing.

[ October 15, 2003, 15:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">to my dismay I read that you got wards affecting the whole battlefield in the Last levels of research. I would have preferred that these spells did not exists.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can understand your concerns Gandalf, as you play mainly solo, thus limiting some spells is surly detrimental to your pleasure. But I can assure you that limiting gateway to a friendly lab has surely been done for MP balance, as it was a bit too convenient a solution when you were an astral nation (oooh an enemy force, lets crush them with this big astral hammer, aka a gating army).
Restricting a bit the power of astral magic is a good thing, as it perhaps too powerful.

Anyway, I never heard that faery trod was toned down, so you can still preach with dryads, then gate in renforcements.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

Faery Trod is altered. You will no longer wander into your dominion but into forests anywhere.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">cool, a new strategic factor to take into account.

and what about a forest which is at death -3 and void of any life? Does it counts?

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can understand your concerns Gandalf, as you play mainly solo, thus limiting some spells is surly detrimental to your pleasure. But I can assure you that limiting gateway to a friendly lab has surely been done for MP balance, as it was a bit too convenient a solution when you were an astral nation (oooh an enemy force, lets crush them with this big astral hammer, aka a gating army).
Restricting a bit the power of astral magic is a good thing, as it perhaps too powerful.

Anyway, I never heard that faery trod was toned down, so you can still preach with dryads, then gate in renforcements.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now you may understand, that why my poll contained 2 options: singleplayer and multiplayer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Now it is clear I guess.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

The ten whammy's were;

1> Super Combatants
2> Instant Magical Movement
3> Magic Duel
4> Ritual Summons
5> Battlefield Summons
6> Battlefield Domination Spells
7> Storms
8> Army BLasting
9> Province BLasting
10> Assassination

1> Super Combatants - Toned down? How?
2> Instant Magical Movement - Only lab to lab now? Not sure if I like this. I would have prefered making it much harder/expensive, but keeping the effect.
3> Magic Duel - Not sure how this has changed, if at all.
4> Ritual Summons - Probably have changed, but I don't know about the changes yet.
5> Battlefield Summons - Word is that battlefield conjuration has been seriously limited. Gem costs for even lesser elementals and double fatigue. Not sure I like this, as it was a mainstay of the game. Will judge when I see the new system in action.
6> Battlefield Domination Spells - With ward rendered non-perfect these combo's are severely weakened.
7> Storms - Delighted to see this taken down a few notches.
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
9> Province BLasting - Same as above
10> Assassination - Not sure if the spells that kill commanders are still around. Will have to see.

In the new enviornment we may see much more play with magic pretenders and bless. Also we may see more done with global spells, since that may be the only way to "reach out" with your power now that you can't get there with troops. This is all conjecture of course... I'll have more to say once the game is released and I have a chance to evaluate the situation.

In the meantime if some beta testers have comments, feel free to give us a clue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

The Damage Shields and stuff like Vine Shield do their damage after the attack has been made.

IMO this may tone down the supercombatants a bit.

And i am more than happy to see army gaters being restricted.

[ October 15, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

...oops, this was old news by the time I posted.

[ October 15, 2003, 17:46: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

I have no problem with army gaters being restricted. I understand their problems for MP play. And limiting them lab2lab would be good.

Its the personal transports Im concerned with. Can I still "air trapeze" a mage somewhere in order to BUILD a lab?

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1: Supercombatants are somewhat weakened by the strikeback taking effect after the hit is landed instead of before, for all strikebacks except the petrification gaze of the Medua/Aegis.
2: Gateway is only to lab, Faery trod to any forest, there is a new more difficult and expensive astral spell that works like gateway used to, as well as a similar difficult death spell that carries with it a few danger for those using it.
3. In a tie both participants die.
4. Varies with the spells, some are as they used to be some are changed.
5: Varies with the battlefield summons.
6,7: Is altered as you mentioned above
8,9,10: Are more or less the same.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1) Super Combatants are practically non-existent, at least not in the same way they used to be in Dom I. There is new combat system that allows units to hit enemy with fire shield before they take damage, so even if fire shield will kill them, they still do damage. Also, any following attack after first one (during same turn of course) reduces protection by 1 and defender's fatigue also increases chances of penetrating armor. In effect, units may gang up on "super combatant" and take him down even if they suffer heavy losses. I've seen this in action and rarely if ever send my combatants in battle without some heavy cover from other troops.

2) Well, I'm not 100% sure about change since I'm not sure how it was, but you can move armies between friendly labs and there is teleport spell that can teleport your mage anywhere. Note that labs have more strategic importance now since they can repair magical units that normally don't heal (like crushers). Of course, you can destroy labs if needed.

3) Not sure about this one since I rarely use it.

4) Again hard to tell what has changed about them since I have little insight on how it was in Dom I, but as far as I can tell there are lots more summons which vary greatly. Also, seasonal spirits have been toned down and since there are seasons in game now, their power depends on time of season they are in. E.g. Summer Lions are weakest during winter and strongest during summer.
There are elemental Kings and Queens that can "Summon Allies" (no cost of gems) and add elementals to your standard armies. They are in limited number for each element and each has his own name, characteristics and special abilities. They even summon different creatures.
Not sure if it was in Dom I but there is Fairy Queen that can be summoned which can heal your troops just like Arco priestess. The rest of the changes you will probably be able to see for yourselves, but in my experience there is no real summon that will dominate all others. All have some purpose.

5) There have been discussions about that already but you are first person I saw that liked previous system better. Its true, now all elemental summons cost gems, but there are high level spells that can summon a larger number of them instantly (at great cost of gems and fatigue of course).

6) Wards have been nerfed, but Pocus is right. There are high-level (8th level) enchantment spells that will protect all your troops. However, that can be thwarted by simply increasing research costs to high or very high, thus making their usage available only in late long games.

7) Yes, storms are toned down but still useful. Of course there is still arrow fend spell that gives 80% protection from missiles (rather hard to get to if high research cost though)

8) Not much experiences with that one but they are probably still useful. I have experienced enemy global spell (Wrath of God I think it was called) but his effect was slight anywhere outside his dominion. I WAS losing troops to it, although rarely. Most likely those spells are domain dependant: stronger caster's dominion = more powerful spell.

9) Not sure what has changed

10) Seeking arrows and flaming arrows are still working but not overpowered since they cost significant number of gems and you can never be really sure of the effect they had (no report if you killed anything). Also, AI will use lots of them and will use Assassins and spies a lot. Protect those commanders!

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

Flaming arrows killing commanders?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Is there a new commander-bLasting spell?

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">8,9,10: Are more or less the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">8,9,10: Are more or less the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... I hope the mod tools are powerful enough to change this. But I'd prefer if it was changed in the vanilla game. Especially 8 and 9... making the effect proportional to dominion strength might be useful... so that you could still target any province, but you couldn't annihilate the enemy's capitol easily and cheaply. Something like... +10 your dominion gives a full-strength spell, +10 enemy dominion gives a zero-strength spell, and anywhere in between gives a linearly interpolated strength.

-Cherry

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">8,9,10: Are more or less the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... I hope the mod tools are powerful enough to change this. But I'd prefer if it was changed in the vanilla game. Especially 8 and 9... making the effect proportional to dominion strength might be useful... so that you could still target any province, but you couldn't annihilate the enemy's capitol easily and cheaply. Something like... +10 your dominion gives a full-strength spell, +10 enemy dominion gives a zero-strength spell, and anywhere in between gives a linearly interpolated strength.

-Cherry</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I second this.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

>3. In a tie both participants die.

Nice. I like that.
It's still potent though. The nations with mages that have astral-1 skill will have to worry about a beefy astral mage waltzing in and cleaning house.

>there is a new more difficult and expensive astral spell that works like gateway used to, as well as a similar difficult death spell that carries with it a few danger for those using it.

Excellent.
I like that it's still available, just more difficult.

>1) Super Combatants are practically non-existent

I must really wonder if this is true, or if you just haven't been abused yet.

>There is new combat system that allows units to hit enemy with fire shield before they take damage

While this is a good first step, it would barely degrade many super-combatants.

>Also, any following attack after first one (during same turn of course) reduces protection by 1 and defender's fatigue also increases chances of penetrating armor. In effect, units may gang up on "super combatant" and take him down even if they suffer heavy losses.

It's this way in Dom I as well. A well constructed super combatant will still clean house.

The worst offenders were Ice Devils, which were simply too cheap, and were easy to mass produce. Father Illearths and Pazazu also made quite an impact. I'm hoping this all got toned down a few notches.

>2) Well, I'm not 100% sure about change since I'm not sure how it was, but you can move armies between friendly labs and there is teleport spell that can teleport your mage anywhere.

If the personal movement spells are still working, which is what you seem to imply, then players will react by changing strategy to promote mobile super combatants, and mobile mage teams. If you can bring the mages but not the armies, then that's what will happen. Players will abuse mobility at any opportunity. I know I do...

> Also, seasonal spirits have been toned down and since there are seasons in game now, their power depends on time of season they are in.

Sounds interesting, but I'd need to see that in action before comment.

>There are elemental Kings and Queens that can "Summon Allies" (no cost of gems)

That was in Dom I.

>They are in limited number for each element and each has his own name, characteristics and special abilities.

However in Dom I they wern't limited.

>Not sure if it was in Dom I but there is Fairy Queen that can be summoned which can heal your troops just like Arco priestess.

Always a good summons. The heal ability is new, as far as I know.

>5) There have been discussions about that already but you are first person I saw that liked previous system better.

I'm not sure which system I like better.
I am just concerned because this is a major change to game balance.

>6) Wards have been nerfed, but Pocus is right. There are high-level (8th level) enchantment spells that will protect all your troops.

I have no problem with that. In fact I like that the potent spells are available but take more effort.

>10) Seeking arrows and flaming arrows are still working but not overpowered since they cost significant number of gems

I'm more concerned with Mind Hunt and Vengence of the Dead.

[ October 15, 2003, 19:34: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not a bad idea, but full strength only in +10 for you is insane... They aren't THAT powerful! But, if it only gave full damage in your own dominion, atleast two or three candles, that would be better...
But this does not work with the population destructives. You could only kill people who believe in you. THAT would be mad!

Oh, and did you notice that Crusher-thingie? It seems constructs must be healed in labs now... Can Ulmish smiths heal them too?

Dammit, and I might not be getting the game before christmas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif This is not fair...

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">8,9,10: Are more or less the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I always disliked these as well, as there's no defense against them, but had never seen a game go long enough to really see them in action and so held my tongue.

I just recently have seen Murdering Winter in action, and it's every bit as bad as I suspected it would be. I can think of no viable tactic to take an opponent's castle, short of using only inherently cold resistant troops, or bringing so many I can afford the losses. :-/

Perhaps I'm daft and am missing, but the existance of such spells seems to make mundane units useless once they come out.

Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">8,9,10: Are more or less the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I always disliked these as well, as there's no defense against them, but had never seen a game go long enough to really see them in action and so held my tongue.

I just recently have seen Murdering Winter in action, and it's every bit as bad as I suspected it would be. I can think of no viable tactic to take an opponent's castle, short of using only inherently cold resistant troops, or bringing so many I can afford the losses. :-/

Perhaps I'm daft and am missing, but the existance of such spells seems to make mundane units useless once they come out.

Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lads, if the mod tools will be powerful enough and we can disable spells, these problems won't exist. Simply you will have the chance to disallow the disliked spells.

[ October 15, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">8,9,10: Are more or less the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I always disliked these as well, as there's no defense against them, but had never seen a game go long enough to really see them in action and so held my tongue.

I just recently have seen Murdering Winter in action, and it's every bit as bad as I suspected it would be. I can think of no viable tactic to take an opponent's castle, short of using only inherently cold resistant troops, or bringing so many I can afford the losses. :-/

Perhaps I'm daft and am missing, but the existance of such spells seems to make mundane units useless once they come out.

Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lads, if the mod tools will be powerful enough and we can disable spells, these problems won't exist. Simply you will have the chance to disallow the disliked spells.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IF...but hopefully it will have the spell disabling part.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are not only partial resistances, just that the spells affecting the entire battlefield only offer partial resistance. As long as you are not besieging there are domes, but when you siege this is not an option. One way to deal with this is to take out the opposing mage casting the murdering winter. After he has used murdering winter you can target him with veangeance of the dead for example.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I typically play multiplayer, and modding individual aspects that don't fit my taste isn't really a viable option.

Besides, I don't have time to do the balancing necessary to make a good mod of Dominions.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are not only partial resistances, just that the spells affecting the entire battlefield only offer partial resistance. As long as you are not besieging there are domes, but when you siege this is not an option. One way to deal with this is to take out the opposing mage casting the murdering winter. After he has used murdering winter you can target him with veangeance of the dead for example.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure I understand what you mean... do you mean that Caelum and Jotunheim are still 100% immune to cold?

Domes are not really effective against spells like Murdering winter, unless you never move your troops. And you must beseige in order to win, and likely can't kill the responsible mage without the catch-22 of storming a castle in the first place.

The counters you mention make your opponent think a little more carefully about when to Murdering Winter, but don't really limit it's power. You can only be protected if you are static -- which is a loosing strategy in itself.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are not only partial resistances, just that the spells affecting the entire battlefield only offer partial resistance. As long as you are not besieging there are domes, but when you siege this is not an option. One way to deal with this is to take out the opposing mage casting the murdering winter. After he has used murdering winter you can target him with veangeance of the dead for example.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps I suffered traumatic experience with murdering winter (having been hammered by an uber caelum with this spell during 25 turns), but here is my opinion :

1. in practice you only dome provinces that you think you can hold. Perhaps 2 or 3 provinces at most will be domed. Aside that, I can assure you that you will get bLasted most often than not, either in your empire (in the 90% remaining provinces not domed), or in the provinces of your enemy.

2. the mage casting the spell must be found. There is no easy mean to do that, as generally he wont stand in the capitol (the player is not that stupid). And even if you find it, you can bet that there is some domes up (3 or more from my experience).

To end the story I started, the Caelian mage was never killed, as he was not reachable by any mean. The game ended when Caelum started to stall heavily (we dispatched his ally) and after our own ally Abysia started to vitrify his armies with Flames from the sky (and everybody else was sending leprosy, the third tactical nuke of the family)

I think that more than half of all units killed in the game were done by these 2 spells (MW and FFTS). When the game ended, most of the players were dispirited by this fact (or is all?), by the no brainer in using these spells. Even the Caelian player recognized that he used MW with distate, so powerful they were. And no, the game was not a big one, there was only 7 players, but it dragged as nobody wanted to concede (which is a good thing).

Murdering winter is level 7, that's easily reachable. With some water income, you can have a big reserve when you can cast it. Sure, you wont see many of these spells cast in small to medium games, or games ending at turn 50, but otherwise they are really detrimental to the gameplay (in the experience of our group).

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Even worse, this strategy synergizes with the underpriced Ice Devils, which are immune to the effects, and generate water gems to pay for casting Murdering Winter.

This is a very popular strategy and effective strategy; 3 out of 6 players in my current game seem to use it!

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

>Even worse, this strategy synergizes with the underpriced Ice Devils, which are immune to the effects, and generate water gems to pay for casting Murdering Winter.

I have heard that blood hunting has been altered somewhat, and that the large blood summons will be handled differently in Dom II.

Perhaps some of the testers could enlighten us about the way it works now.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Even worse, this strategy synergizes with the underpriced Ice Devils, which are immune to the effects, and generate water gems to pay for casting Murdering Winter.

This is a very popular strategy and effective strategy; 3 out of 6 players in my current game seem to use it!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the demons&devils commanders are now limited in number in doms II (as the elemental kings and queens), so at least this abuse will be fixed. It wont change much how much murdering winter can be used anyway (the Caelian player I mention never recruited ice devils, but still managed to cast something like 10 MW - each time you gather a sizable force to counter him, bLast, you were back to stone age, very frustrating).

I wonder who really appreciate these spells, (gameplay wise not power wise). Alex Poger gave his opinion, but I would like to hear some MP vets like Wendigo, YWL, Sunray, etc.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

I have a question about the greater wards, those that take longer to research and which offer full protection. Do they give full protection, or something like 90% resistance, which added to the normal ward would offer immunity?
And how powerful wizard do you need for these spells? Atleast both need gems.

Just came to my mind, and would like to check this out.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I typically play multiplayer, and modding individual aspects that don't fit my taste isn't really a viable option.

Besides, I don't have time to do the balancing necessary to make a good mod of Dominions.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I will play singleplayer, and you bet that I will make a mod without those uber, unbalanced spells, if disabling spells will be possible. [It must be!]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">it is anyway better to reach a consensus about these spells. Something like 40 to 50% of the people here (according to two polls) play MP. It would be far better to have a common set of rules accepted in this case.

In solo you will encounter the problem too with most of the scenarios, if modding tools are allowed. The scenario author will have surely modded some particular aspects of doms, to better fit the setting of the map. Thus you will have to play with his mod, not your.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Although I too think these spells are a bit too potent for my comfort, in my own games MW/FFTS abuse did little to alter the balance of power, as when a side starts using them the opposition isn't long to reply with weapons of the same caliber. At the very least it seems everyone is Leprosy-capable at some point.

On the contrary I've sometimes seen an overwhelmingly dominant faction being leveled to reasonable size by a coalition of weaker, but more numerous nations (with a bigger gem income) - and I'd say that's a rather good thing.

In any case, since game balance is really only an issue in MP, the players can always vote to ban these rituals or restrict their use.

Re: the "dispatch the offending mage with VOTD" - in my experience the offender is more often than not an Ice Devil, thus undead, thus unaffected by VOTD.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I brought this subject up a few months ago in the newsgroup, but it seems I have to repeat a few things, mainly concerning blood hunting/blood summonings.

Blood hunting has been nerfed by not adding any bonuses for the dousing rods to commanders without skill in blood. Even for nations with cheap blood mages (Mictlan), it makes hunting more expensive.

There are six different Ice Devils, 55 slaves apiece. They are more cold dependent (+/- 2 per temperature change) and don't automatically generate gems anymore.

IIRC, there are five Arch Devils, four Heliophages and one Father Illearth. The Pazuzu (sp?) is now one of the Demon Lords (lvl 9).

As for army-bLasting spells, I personally try to counter them by switching to raiding warfare (with small forces) until I can build a large enough resistant army. With the introduction of seasons in DomII, I hope they will have enough of an impact to make it worthwile to campaign in the summer season against cold enemies, and vice versa against hot ones. I am not sure how much the seasons will affect the army-bLasting spells though.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Err, just 2 now, I already killed the 3rd one.

I am the one who just bLasted Jasper's sieging force with a MW, (feel the wrath of the true God you infidel!), so, by references & seeing as Pocus also asked for my opinion, here it goes:

I have mixed feelings regarding the army bLasters, I recon they are both powerful & flexible due to their nº of hits being % based on the size of the targetted army & the abilty to strike from afar, I do however disagree with the point about them being particularly unbalanced when compared to the many other cost-effective aspects/combos/etc of the game. They are just another tool, and they are counterable.

In Jasper's case he spent like 200 or so waters empowering his Nataraja in water & summoning a couple Sea Kings with their retinues, those gems could have been spent in protection gear for his mages & cold resistant troops for example, which might -or not- have been a better option...everything has a trade-off in this game: he made his choice (in a game with a 3 cold Caelum, a 3! cold Jotunheim & a 1 cold Vanheim), I spotted his weak point & took advantage of it. In his discharge it must be said that he's been playing a brilliant game until present and he still has chances to win seeing as I am outsized by my 2 enemies...I only really have a broader experience in endgame warfare to face them, and that might not be enough after all.

FFS comes very late in the game. Leprosy has a slow effect & the diseasing can be ignored by some & cured by others. Murdering winter is weather dependant. The bLasters have their counters & balancing points: resistances, hit points, domes, weather, cures, killing the caster....

One particular point in favour of the army bLasters is that they are one of the few options vs the armies that consist in an horde of mages supported by relief & communion. How should a player that is outclassed in these points face that kind of army otherwise?

By limiting MW we would be affecting the balance between the nations strongly, and downing even more a magic field (water), that is considered by many one of the weakest. IN Dom I IMO Air rules the mid game, while Astral & Blood rule the end game, certainly not Water.
While Caelum could certainly take a little balancing this would be the first time I heard that Jotunheim is too powerful...this is a nation with no proficiency in 3 out of 4 elemental magics, outclassed in Astral by the big Astral nations regarding its combat mages & with huge survival needs.

While we are at this, I will add that I disagree with Alex' list of whammies. While all those are certainly strong tactics, most of them are countereable &, although powerful in the right setting, you can both win without most of them & you can fight them.

If I had to name the most decisive/unbalancing factors of the game in Dom I MP I would name the following:

1.- Diplomacy
Yes, diplomacy!. Nothing more fustrating than being ganged by 6 opponents. While diplomacy can sometimes work in favour of a better game by giving the big guy a challenge it most often than not is used as a way to get an easy, unchallenged win. Diplomacy is the most powerful weapon in the game.

I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada: Either you play this way or you are handicapped, because all the MP games I have played have either been with Normal or Rich settings, and this is the way to go in such games.

Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on.
This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The above 4 are my 'whamies', and IMO you need to use at least 2-3 of them in a vet game or you will see them used vs you & lose. I consider army bLasters secondary when compared to the above four.

--editted grammar

[ October 16, 2003, 11:22: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

1.- Diplomacy
Yes, diplomacy!. Nothing more fustrating than being ganged by 6 opponents. While diplomacy can sometimes work in favour of a better game by giving the big guy a challenge it most often than not is used as a way to get an easy, unchallenged win. Diplomacy is the most powerful weapon in the game.

I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada: Either you play this way or you are handicapped, because all the MP games I have played have either been with Normal or Rich settings, and this is the way to go in such games.

Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on.
This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The above 4 are my 'whamies', and IMO you need to use at least 2-3 of them in a vet game or you will see them used vs you & lose. I consider army bLasters secondary when compared to the above four.

--editted grammar[/QB][/quote]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">this will adress the power of Howl, but wont change anything about relief, as Wendigo pointed it. With 3 druids, you basically suppress the fatigues incurred by your mages during the 5 first rounds. Dont appears very balanced too me, for a 0 gem spell.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wendigo said
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Relief combined with gemfree summonings was truly abusive, when those are gone relief will still be powerful, but less so. Maybe relief should be area restricted, but IMHO Nature magic needs this spell to be competitive.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would you spend 120 points on production for a 6% increase in income? Does it have some other effect?

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

10% resource bonus per step from the production scale. Growth and supplies increase from the growth scale.

[ October 16, 2003, 16:52: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

>While we are at this, I will add that I disagree with Alex' list of whammies. While all those are certainly strong tactics, most of them are countereable &, although powerful in the right setting, you can both win without most of them & you can fight them.

I (nor anyone else, AFAIK) ever said that they were uncounterable. You are reading more into what was said than was there.

>1.- Diplomacy

I wouldn't disagree that diplomacy is incredibly potent.

>I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

This I disagree with this strongly.
In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

I understand that some players like the idea of anomymous power-gaming where there is limited interaction. I have no issue with that. Such players would always have the option of turning dippy off or playing in a low interaction game. Just because some players like this however, is no reason to spite those that do like dippy.

I submit that the best path is to give the players as many options as possible, and let them pick and choose what type of game they wish to participate in.

>2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada:

>Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

While I'd like to see some changes to this as well, I have concerns that the current system (Dom II) that limits the "money" scales will have the opposite effect, making gold more scarce will limit mages and might inspire much more military and early game super combatants. I dearly hope I'm wrong.

>3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on. This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

>This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

Again, less money and more magic scale will inspire more super pretenders. Lessening the effect of the shields is only a small check on their potency.

I'll be better able to comment once I see the new game.

>4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The reason this isn't a huge issue is that by the time you have giant armies of mages and all the research for such combo's, we are also entering the "army bLasting" phase of the game. The army bLasters rip up stacks of mages.

Furthermore, super combatants were always much more in evidence than mage stacks. The mage stacks were one of the few ways to counter super combatants. Hence the lack of complaints.

Indeed, if Dom II has restrictions on conjuration (seems that way), then we will just see a movement towards evocation/relief instead.

This said, much of this is conjecture since I haven't seen the new system in action. I think once we all get the new game and spend some time with it, we will all be better qualified to judge the new balance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

Oh, I have another favorite DomI strategy that won't work in DomII!

"Getting the demo, and never bothering to get the full Version, because the demo basically is the full Version."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup.
Dom II demo is like tigthened social security.

Ooops, culture specific humor...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

Me:
>> diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

Alex:
>This I disagree with this strongly.

No surprise here, we have held opposing views on this topic before in the newsgroup.

IIRC you campaigned for:
- Right of passage.
To which I answered same as here: it would only make gangfests easier.

- Exchange of commanders/mages/troops.
To which I said that allowing such would only dilute the differences between nations and result in a duller game, as nations would not have to find ways to compensate for their weaknesses because they could do so easily via diplomacy.

I haven't however seen any argument to counter the above ones, as the one that follows doesn't hold.

>In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

This is a false analogy with RL. In RL it is possible for a nation to 'win' by staying out of trouble or either achieve a mutual gain by submitting to a bigger power. Obviously, this has no place in a game where 'there can be only one ruling God' by definition. You can say that you personally would like to have more diplomacy options in this game, but there's definitely no need for those as you seem to imply in your argument, the game is not a simulation of our world.

I do not oppose cooperative gameplay per se, but the limits of it must definitely be stated beforehand when the game is launched (looks like we at least agree on this), otherwise it only results in fustration as players develop different expectatives of what is, or not, allowed in a game that requires a heavy time investment.

And I definitely do not see any need to increase the power of what is already the most powerful MP weapon with further coding favoring its use (or abuse), for me this would detract from the game, by making it duller and less challenging (as in, your actions & gaming have a much lower impact on the result of the game the more powerful diplomacy is, as taken to the extreme what counts is how many nations you can get under the umbrella of your alliance vs that of your enemy).

I would rather have the devs spend their time in stuff that improved my enjoyment (balancing, micromanagement reductions...) or at least were neutral to it (Diplomacy in SP regarding the AI...).

[ October 16, 2003, 18:12: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Saber - you are funny! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

>No surprise here, we have held opposing views on this topic before in the newsgroup.

Yes, however my view is that both types of players should be able to get what they want. You seem to want to limit everyone to your style of play.

>- Right of passage.
>To which I answered same as here: it would only make gangfests easier.

Since gateway has been crippled in Dom II, I think that offering some method to cross non-enemy territory is apporpriate.

>- Exchange of commanders/mages/troops.

I never asked for this, and don't like the idea.

>In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

>This is a false analogy with RL.

While real life and games are certainly different, this is a multi-nation game of conflict. I honestly don't see how anyone can argue that dippy and cooperation aren't compatible with such a theme.

Again, I'm not saying that YOU must play dipplomatically, nor that dipplomacy should be forced on anyone. What I'm saying is that it's a very important facet to many players and as such should be included as an option for those that want it.

>I do not oppose cooperative gameplay per se, but the limits of it must definitely be stated beforehand when the game is launched (looks like we at least agree on this), otherwise it only results in fustration as players develop different expectatives of what is, or not, allowed in a game that requires a heavy time investment.

I agree whole-heartedly.
Don't you think having the dippy functionality inside the game would help define such limits? I submit that the lack of structured dippy is precisely what leads to the issue you just brought up!

>And I definitely do not see any need to increase the power of what is already the most powerful MP weapon with further coding favoring its use (or abuse), for me this would detract from the game, by making it duller and less challenging

You don't like dippy. Got it.
Don't use it. Stick to games where all players agree to the same. Why force this view on others?

>I would rather have the devs spend their time in stuff that improved my enjoyment

That pretty much says it all.
What about *my* enjoyment? Or the enjoyment of *other* players? The whole idea here is to have a discussion about what many players want. If there is a good deal of support for dippy (as seems the case) then why should IW program for your enjoyment at the expense of others? I don't mean to be rude, but this comes across as a rather selfish point of view.

This is obviously someting that many players care about passionately. As such I see no reason why IW shouldn't implement options for everyone, so we can all play the game we want.

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How true, that is why were making polls. We know that most of the players are preferring SP, and that lot of players want SP diplomacy.
Period.

[ October 16, 2003, 19:55: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Definitely wrong. I do not want to define how others play or enjoy the game. If they enjoy a different set of rules let them play their way via house rules. What I oppose is the hard-coding of something that goes against the very definition of the game. If you want allied victory you can have it via house rules, why do you need any coding to support something which doesn't fit with the world? Do you need an official clap in the back?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you want totally _free_ passage through enemy lands to replace gateway?. Colour me unconvinced.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry, it seems after a Google search that my recollection of this was inaccurate, you campaigned for Allied victory instead. My apologies.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because in the Dominions world in the end there canbe only one. You can cooperate up to a point, when your ally will become your enemy. While you can play differently if you feel like it or in a scenario it would make no sense for IW to code such possibility which would not fit the story of the world as defined in the colourful background. In your house games, you are king.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can play diplomatically: You can forward gems, coin, slaves & items, and you can trade information & coordinate attacks. It sounds like quite a lot to me.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why so? are you not capable of defending your point of view & what you like? do you expect me to do it for you in addition to defending mine?

I will tell you a secret: I will defend what I like & you can defend what you like, that way we can have...a debate. If we are to 'have a discussion about what players want' why do you label as selfish the opinions that disagree with yours?

Targeting the poster when you run out of arguments to target the post?

Re: Dom I Strategies which WON\'T work in Dom II
 

House rules are impossible for SP, unless we're refering to ironman rules, therefore the only option is to have them hardcoded. OTOH, they are quite possible to ignore in MP. The option has to exist to be ignored/switched off, so which scenario happens to take more players into account?