Dominion effects
 

AFAIK the new effects are:
Order +7% gold/lvl, -5% random events/lvl
Production +10% res/lvl, +2% gold/lvl
Heat (unc) -10% gold/lvl away from norm
Growth +2% pop/lvl, +xx? supply/lvl
Luck (unc) +20% event will be good/lvl, +5%random events/lvl away from norm
Magic (unc) +1 research/mage/lvl, -0.5 MR/lvl

It looks like Order has been relativly improved but, with patrolling being nerfed, less so then just leaving it alone would have. The lack of patrolling also makes Turmoil worse since you can't maintain your big provinces at the same level as everyone else any more. I can't see anyone not buying this.

Since Order also reduces the benefit of Luck, nations with important heroes, such as Pangea and Jotunheim, are likely to suffer. I worry about Pangea under the new regime.

Production looks better for Ulm but otherwise I usually had enough resources to spend my gold. Of course. Sloth looks better for C'tis -- who else now has good low resource troops that aren't sacred limited? Machaka and Mictlan?

Growth is dead. Since you're near your castles when defending and outside you domionion attacking the supplies are rarely a big deal. It's 10 turn ROI from population growth is 11%/turn but it comes so slow. I expect to see a lot of death dominions.

Anything else? Have Heat, Luck, and Magic changed?

Re: Dominion effects
 

>Growth +2% pop/lvl, +xx? supply/lvl

Is that a one time 2% boost or 2% every turn?

>The lack of patrolling also makes Turmoil worse

What's the deal on patrol and unrest in Dom II?

>Since Order also reduces the benefit of Luck,

It did in Dom I as well. No change there.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Growth increases income by 2% per scale step, and growth by 0.2% per scale step. There is another thread on this somewhere.

Patrol reduces unrest in the same way as it did in dom 1, just that it is more punitive to raise taxes. The turmoil scale only affects income and not unrest.

Also I do not think anyone should be worried about Pangaea, if anything they have become significantly stronger by various changes in their unit rooster.

[ October 17, 2003, 23:50: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Dominion effects
 

Pangea gets a unit rooster? I can't wait to get my hands on one of them...although you'd need some hens to get any troops out of that. Or maybe its like a fey boar but the chicken variety. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I predict we see lots of high order and production scales...just like before. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hahaha... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you dont like the whole idea of population growing right? I wonder why. Having to invest 120 design points to get a +18% increase in the population of a province, after 30 turns, is not that interesting.

[ October 18, 2003, 06:51: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you dont like the whole idea of population growing right? I wonder why. Having to invest 120 design points to get a +18% increase in the population of a province, after 30 turns, is not that interesting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is 18% more people that pay taxes. Now, when patrolling+200% taxes combo has been nerfed (thank god), this migth even be viable.

However, i do agree that the bonus could be bit higher, perhaps 0.4% or 0.5%.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you dont like the whole idea of population growing right? I wonder why. Having to invest 120 design points to get a +18% increase in the population of a province, after 30 turns, is not that interesting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is appr 23% after 30 turns. And you get the 6% flat income increase, and the supply bonus, and are not eligeble for certain bad luck events. Growth scales were by many considered one of the no brainers in dom 1, now its effectiveness is reduced by giving it 3% less of an income increase per step, I still think it is a useful scale.

Population growth in excess of 9% a year seems absurd to me.

[ October 18, 2003, 10:15: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you dont like the whole idea of population growing right? I wonder why. Having to invest 120 design points to get a +18% increase in the population of a province, after 30 turns, is not that interesting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is appr 23% after 30 turns.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Almost 25%? Well, that's not shabby at all.

Re: Dominion effects
 

"It is appr 23% after 30 turns. And you get the 6% flat income increase, and the supply bonus, and are not eligeble for certain bad luck events. Growth scales were by many considered one of the no brainers in dom 1, now its effectiveness is reduced by giving it 3% less of an income increase per step, I still think it is a useful scale.

Population growth in excess of 9% a year seems absurd to me."

Inspired by the Astral Clam and Fever Fetish, I generally try to normalize investment calculations over 10 turns. During that time, IICC, the pop bonus averages 1% per level, add the direct +2% and that's +3% gold/lvl/turn. With Order giving +7%, your troops need to be real hungry to make up the difference. As for 9% being excessive, no argument. The cost/lvl could be adjusted downward instead or something. Are the starting gold and population numbers untouchable?

You did raise another interesting point though: which scales influence particular events? Magic I know does (and I'm pretty sure effects Crossbreeding too), and you've just said Growth. Is Productivity/Sloth or Heat/Cold required for any events? I imagine that Order & Luck only effect the chance?

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All the scales influences the events in some way. For example you need a death scale to get death gems or the plague. I do not remember for certain but you probably need at least growth 0 for exceptional harvest etc. I do not remember most of them but there are many events that requires a specified scale or some other circumstance. There are even more of these types of events in dom 2 where there are events that only take place if a certain unit is present in the province or if the terrain is of a specified terrain etc.

[ October 18, 2003, 11:19: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Dominion effects
 

You have to keep in mind that +growth will only get maximum influence at the capital and your core nation area. Out at the borders and inside post-enemy territory the effect won't get you as much, unless the ex-enemy also had +growth.

In comparison +order will pump taxes as soon as your dominion pushes the scales up.

With the weakening of growths tax influence, the scale has lost a huge amount of it's potency.

I suspect we will see many players taking +0, and possibly even -3.

My gut feeling is that both growth and production scales have been diminished to the point that they aren't very important. I hope I'm wrong, and that it turns out to be better balanced than I'm guessing.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not a problem, hopefully the changes in growth and production will make it viable to not have growth and production +3.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you dont like the whole idea of population growing right? I wonder why. Having to invest 120 design points to get a +18% increase in the population of a province, after 30 turns, is not that interesting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is appr 23% after 30 turns. And you get the 6% flat income increase, and the supply bonus, and are not eligeble for certain bad luck events. Growth scales were by many considered one of the no brainers in dom 1, now its effectiveness is reduced by giving it 3% less of an income increase per step, I still think it is a useful scale.

Population growth in excess of 9% a year seems absurd to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">dunno, for me 30 turns @ 1.006 give 19% , perhaps there is a base 0.1% at growth 0 (thus giving 22%) ?

higher pop growth would be absurd, but you need to balance scale cost with advantages given. oh well, minor point anyway, there is no that many way to increase economy. I just regret that you had to give growth a blend of pop increase and econ increase, and not only pop increase, just because you felt a too high growth rate would not be realistic.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Higher growth rate is NOT absurd. This is a land of magic, remember? Not to mention that high-growth provinces are lush, beautiful, attractive places to live, and should draw immigrants (pop increase is never defined as "through births only"). Lastly... who says months are 30 days long (or days 24 hours)? That's an Earth thing. If months represent more time, population growth per month could be arbitrarily high, yet still realistic.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">9% Growth a year is very high even for a magical world, the population in a province more than quadrouples every generation. Besdides, I like that population is by and large a diminishing resource, it makes the game more apocalyptic.

Re: Dominion effects
 

Originally posted by johan osterman:

Quote:

Besdides, I like that population is by and large a diminishing resource, it makes the game more apocalyptic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That explains spells like Wrath of God, Illwinter, Second Sun and summoning of Demon Lords...

[ October 18, 2003, 18:24: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Dominion effects
 

100% agreement with Saber on this. This is a fantasy game. Balance is more important that realism. Besides you can always explain growth as immigration or increased number of people now prosperous enough to pay taxes.

I understand the intention behind making Production +3 less needed, however my fear is that we will end with the exact opposite situation where competive players will almost always favor -3. Again I haven't seen the new game in action... but this is my concern.

In Dom I, I would often take Prod +3, Drain +3. If that has now changed to Sloth +3, Magic +3, we have a shift, but there is still imbalance. The idea is to inspire the use of all scales, not to rotate problems.

With the information at hand (which is limited) it appears that Order +3 is almost required. Production and Growth look watered down to the point that I'm not sure I care about them. Luck looks the same as always. Magic looks like the new place to toss the extra nation points.

With less gold but lots of points to spend on magic and magic scale, my thought is that players are going to go crazy making super combatant pretenders.

I'd like to hear from some of the beta testers, as you guys have much more experience in this matter than I. What scale choices have you been inspired to use? How does the balance between military and magic feel, in your opinion.

We don't have a demo to examine yet, please throw us a bone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont quite follow, how you deduce from a 0.6% growth a turn that you get 9% a year? Correct me if I'm wrong but you have decided that a game turn is a season no?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that, and this is why I feel you are biased against growth, whatever our arguments could be. The game is sufficiently apocalyptic with the end game magical arsenal we have, you dont have to diminish the growth rate to induce this feeling, frankly. With tidal waves, black plagues etc., raising the growth rate to an acceptable level (ie to the point that 120 design points are worth spending) would not change much the resilience of provinces against these spells.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It was hanging in the air little in dom 1, turns might even have been refered to as alternatively months or seasons within the game. In dom 2 a turn is defined as a month.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess all my preferences constitute biases, so yes I am biased against growth. In the end dominions is the way it is because of JK and Kristoffers different biases, one of these biases which I share is a bias against growth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 18, 2003, 19:48: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Dominion effects
 

"With less gold but lots of points to spend on magic and magic scale, my thought is that players are going to go crazy making super combatant pretenders."

I was wondering about something related. The betas seem to think a 9 and two 4 magic paths are reasonable on a pretender. I've never played a MP end game and most of my pretenders have <7 in all paths combined. What does one do with that much magic!? None of the summonings or items needed over a five, likewise battlefield enchantments and defensive spells. Are globals or better offensive combat casting that important? "That" depending on what else you can use the design points for, of course.

I still want to see a truely horrific 200+pt chassis for an Ermorian combat pretender. The immense creature crawled forward disolving flesh, blood, and even the very stones in its path...

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Part of the idea behind the new variable bless effects was to encourage players to make less wimpy pretender, not neccesarily combat pretender but pretenders with respectable magic abilities. In dom 1 if you wanted to play competetively two paths with 6 were probably not a good design decision in most cases, hopefully now it might be.

And there are battlefield spells that require more than 5, but of course you can reach higher values by communion or items etc instead.

Re: Dominion effects
 

>What does one do with that much magic!?

In Dom I typical magic use on a god would be something like;

1> Large pretender body, Astral magic for magic duel defense - body ethereal - luck - astral shield, Earth magic for invulnerability. With this much defense a pretender can pretty much slap conventional armies around at will.

2> A single spell specialist, such as taking many levels of Air magic and a bit of Water magic, so the pretender could use quickness and then spray orb lightning. I suspect we will be seeing much more of this sort of thing in Dom II.

Of course there may be a host of new and improved magic effects in Dom II. We'll all probably be experimenting and discovering new stuff for months.

[ October 19, 2003, 00:55: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dunno if this is much help, but here are my experiences:

I have yet to find any Just Right combo for the scales. What I want and what I find useful varies depending on who I'm playing, how I'm playing, who I'm playing against, and just plain what kind of mood I'm in when I set up the game.

I may well be missing some splendiferous combo, but mixing it up from game to game has been working fine for me, as long as I plan to combine them with my strengths, e.g. picking Productivity for Ulm since they need so many resources.

Re: Dominion effects
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Order is good, one of the top priorities. Magic I feel is very nice if you have cheap 1 point mages (Marignon, Pythium, Mictlan etc.) Don't underestimate Production - it can be awhile before you can put up additional castles. Furthermore, remember that most nations only can produce sacred troops in their capitals - thus, if I invest heavily in my pretender to get nice bonuses I usually take Prod +2/+3 (and/or a high adm castle). For many nations, the production of sacred units is resource (rather than dominion or gold) limited. Luck is for me not so attractive, depends on event setting and national heroes though. Growth does seem somewhat weak, yet for some reason I always hesitate to take a death scale.

For me, nation design is enormously more complicated in Dom II. Now, I start by addressing the following questions: Will I be using/rely on sacred troops? If yes, what bonuses will be most beneficial? What pretender can provide the magic at a reasonable cost? Will the pretender be used primarily for combat or site searching/forging? If primarily site searching - does the pretenders magic skills complement the national mages? And still provide useful bonuses?

Powerfull sacred troops should be most useful in short games (possibly games with Victory points conditions), games with slow research, or few magic sites. For normal settings, I am leaning towards spending points primarily on the scales instead (Vanheim and Marignon excepted). Rainbow mages might be interesting as well (The crone is now only 25 design points).

As for military - magic balance, the shift to magic dominance will occur later than in Dom I, primarily because the 'free' summonings have been removed. You can no longer (like Dom I) rely entirely on a mage based army after lvl 3 conjuration - however, eventually magic will prevail. There are just so many potent spells out there.

Re: Dominion effects
 

on dominion effects and growth

Definitely there should preferably be large population benefits for better dominion - and this shouldbe linked to more resources to mobilise more combat units etc

Goodarmy always rests on good economy which rests on large population base in ancient/feudal/medieval context.

Unless you want a silicon valley effect where critical mass of skills (say gem, site and mage-rich provinces) is decisive rather than population mass perse.

This is a good incentive for more military-inclined players to quickly beat opponents before magic power becomes too overwhelming

As an Ulm fan (which in my mind corresponds more to Teutonic Knights) this would be great!