Map Making Options and Single Player
 

I've been largely inactive in the Dominions community for a while, but with Dom2 right around the corner I have started to get back into the Dominions mode and play more. I probably won't have much time for playing multiplayer this year (mainly for happy reasons, so don't feel too bad for me!), so I've mainly been thinking about single player and the map options...

Is there a Map Designing pdfs available for Dom2? In Dom1 for SP use, I had a standard set of options to add into maps so I could be assured of fighting competent opponents - let's face it, even the impossible AI would kill itself with max turmoil and max Bogusluck, so I just force every race to get the optimal dominion for it's race. Even for a vet, this with a full host of impossible AIs you can expect a pretty tough game -well, unless you really exploit the known imbalances (lAE swarms, IDs, FIs, etc).

But, there was some problems that prevented further balancing:
a) I could hardcode a province to have a particular castle, but couldn't change a race to use a certain castle. So unless I hardcoded each start position (bad), some races still pick Watch Towers or other bad castles, and are slow starters and never catch up.

b) I could fix populations in certain provinces (change each area to be roughly equal in worth to non-Ermor), but I can't balance resources out around the capitols without changing the tga files.

c) No way to give weaker nations bonus startup troops without hardcoding the startup provinces (which again, is bad since I'd know where the other races start).

Any idea if these issues are resolved in Dom2, and if there are any Illwinter guides for mapmaking yet?

Also, are there any new fun startup options - like developed start (ie all nations start with a certain number of provinces, etc), fast research, exposed magic sites (all sites become revealed when conquering a province), etc?

ps - I seem to recognize a couple of names - hi Gandalf, Pocus, Poger, and other ex-enemies! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

Hi George. Its a pleasure to see a vet like you back into the community.

From what I know (which is few things) :
you can have 5 speed settings for research now.
the boosted AI wont choose bad scales. (unluck...), I dont know if they will choose the better castles though.
I think it is possible to start with several provinces now, but I'm not sure, perhaps its just a dream http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

There will be a map editing manual included on the Dom II CD. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

Its kindof old but you can check out
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/mapkit.zip

It has one Dom2 tga+map, and the mapedit.pdf

[ October 21, 2003, 20:48: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

Thanks for the responses!

More startup options are good - fast research in particular should be fun. I do hope the advanced start is possible too.

Looking at the map editor demo and file, some new options there:

a) Terrain - can now set the terrain types. Maybe can approximate resources and supplies this way? Would be nice, but hopefully a #setresource will still be possible. Probably a #setsupply too...

b) New victory conditions - can win game with standard victory, or by a couple of interesting other ways - victory points (enhanced Version of the province capture from Dom1), amount of Dominion, number of provinces, and number of research points. Very cool!

c) You can set the new dominion types settings (undead Ermor, Golem Cult, etc).

d) You can set allies for the AI! Nice way to make the game harder - try starting as center of Flower with AI nations allied surrounding you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

e) Start with spells researched!!! Very nice, especially for fast games and testbed scenarios.

Should be fun - when's the party starting? My wife may miss me, but I fear a relapse coming on...

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is PDF included on CD. In one of most recent patches, AI on higher difficulty levels has been prevented from choosing high turmoil/misfortune combo. You can assign specific scales and dominion strengths for each nation if you like but game designers feel that AI should be varied opponent instead of choosing same scales over and over again so you will have to make changes in map scripts if you want AI to use most powerful dominions.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can still place a certain castle in certain province but I don't know if placing some castle in starting province will force that nation to use that castle as their default. Placing a good castle in starting province should be enough for AI to give it a good start. On higher difficulty levels, in my experience (for Dom II of course) AI will choose best castles. I have yet to see Difficult AI use Watch Tower. Probably possible but very unlikely.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No option for specifying resources in provinces. You can assign some special sites that give bonus resources, though.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That should be possible and very easy now. You can set specific commanders, give them names and items, assign bodyguards (important for independent strong commanders) and place specific armies in each province. If you place them in province owned by specific nation that will add them to that nation. You can also assign multiple starting provinces for each nation as well. However, if you want nation to have random starting position I'm not sure you can assign troops to it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can assign owner for each province at the start - developed start. There is already a number of scenarios in game like Wars of Orania that do that.
Specific magic sites can be set to explored and unexplored.
Research has 4 speeds (not 5 Pocus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ):

1 - Easy Research. Cost of research is 1/2 of normal.
2 - Normal Research. Same as it was in Dom I.
3 - Difficult Research. Cost of research is 2x of normal.
4 - Very Difficult Research. Cost of research is 3x of normal.

Research speed effectively tips the balance between military/magic in game. All of those who feel that magic is too strong can now increase research cost at the start of the game, which will "nerf" it down effectively.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

Thanks for all the info Daynarr. I love the new Research speed levels, and I am glad the higher AIs are better about selecting their Dominion scales.

Dom1 had the ability to add hardcoded commanders, troops, castles, sites and such to specific provinces which could be assigned to a nation. From your post and the mapeditor, it seems like Dom2 will likewise allow that. But it doesn't seem like (at least initially) you can get a map to give bonus startup armies without hardcoding the races with fixed province ownership to allow fast start (or more balanced) startups, or set national castle type at all (ie the castle that will be built by that race), or start each race with more than one province randomly (ie everyone start with 5 provinces that are random assigned but grouped).

The good news is with the game going Gold, at least now Illwinter will likely start adding features shortly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif So perhaps sometimes soon these issues will be addressed... The advanced start might be tricky to add, but the castle and startup troops would seem to be not that complex (said as a person who has never seen their code, of course!).

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually this is not entirely right. The cost is one additional step up the cost scale, so the research cost of lvl 3 at high cost equals the resech cost of lvl 4 at normal cost.

low: 15-20-40-60-100-160-etc
normal: 20-40-60-100-160-260-etc
high: 40-60-100-160-260-420-etc
very high: 60-100-160-260-420-680-etc

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nearly 3000 pts for level 9 (if I calculate right, which is rare). So much for master enslave, flames from the sky and wish!

Some additional questions for further map making :
- is it possible to assign theme to an AI?
- are AI of imp difficulty choosing more often themes?
- is the AI able to perform blood hunt and rituals if situation permit, or is it restricted (hardcoded) to a few nations. Thinking here of Marignon with diabolical faith, or any other nations given circle master, either at start in scenario making or with a site.
- are the wrap around maps spherical (4 directions ) or cylindrical (2 directions) in their wrap?
- in doms I mountains didnt add resources to a province (to my dismay!). How terrain recognition and effect has changed? Will forests and mountains provinces have high resources intrinsicaly in Doms II?

Thanks in advance

[ October 24, 2003, 07:17: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">as for the advanced start (multi starting provinces), some randomisation of what is in the provinces, and random shuffling (disabling/enabling some AIs without player knowledge), this can be done with an external utility which modify the map file. In fact such utility is nearly done (I will release it with the Rlyeh/Dreamlands map that is under way - I aim for december).

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is command to set a theme for each nation. It's "#specdom" command, but you will see it in manual.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any AI on any difficulty can choose any theme, so you never know what are you up against. Themes are not unbalancing because they cost design points (well, most of them).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Devs will know answer better then me.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Spherical (4 directions).

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

thanks for the answers.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Spherical (4 directions). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have problem understanding what exactly does wrap-around. As province linking can be altered to our own choice (eg linking the provinces of two opposite edges), I suppose that the wraparound option is only used for scrolling purpose?

Also, am I right in assuming that you have no link detection algorithm in doms II, or does the one of Doms I still present, but optional?

What is a good map size? I was thinking of 4 1024x768 screen total, so 2048 x 1536 ? I know that with zoom it is not much an issue, but what are the average size of doms II maps made so far?

will we have a library of pre made sprites for forests and mountains? If no, do you feel its ok (for a fan made map) to use graphics from old games, like Heroes of Might and Magic III? I dont want to be accused of copyright infrigment (sp?)...

Last, what are the resolutions supported by doms II? 1024 is ok?

thank you again in sharing these infos.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Spherical (4 directions). [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not to nitpick (OK, who am I kidding? I am nitpicking http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ), but the typical wraparound theme (left to right and top to bottom) is not spherical; rather, it turns the map into a torus.

If you want a sphere, you should set thing up so that any "northernmost" Province is adjacent to every "northernmost" Province, and the same for "southernmost" Provinces - just like it is with big maps of the whole Earth.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

thats my fault, I'm loosy when it comes to 3D http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

In regards to the "#neighbors" being mandatory:
Pros and Cons, Gandalf, which I think you've said before http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It is a big con for your random map making, and I'd imagine it'd be pretty annoying for making new maps too. Since they have a Dom1 system that does this mapping, however, hopefully the mapedit tools can include a program to generate the neighbors it would have caught, and output them to a text file? I suppose Dom1 must have that matrix loaded into memory, so potentially just load a game with the file, and then some memory dump spelunking. Or the source code/algorithm/etc so a third party could do it

It's a big pro, however, for any third party map tools. With the neighbors list, you have all you need in the .map file to generate a complete distance matrix! Seperate post for that one coming (might be long)

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">- The AI performs bloodhunts and sacrifices if it has blood mages. In Dom I there was no blood hunts at all.

- Doughnut (4 directions)

- Mountains did increase resources in Dom I. Every province had a random die in resource value. Mountain pixels added to the die value, thus mountains was often but not always more resource rich. A similar mechanic applies to Dom II. There is a random resource value that is higher in mountains or forests.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mainly for scrolling purposes. You must still add borders of the un-wrapped map edges.

Border detect is still present, but you can choose not to use it.

The largest maps of Dom II are 2400x1800 IIRC. There is no particular limit that I know of.

I intend to make a forest/mountain/feature library when I have time.

We do not have any issues with player contributed maps infringing on other works. As I have stated earlier, I would gladly play on a Middle Earth map.

Resolutions is not a problem. The game supports more resoulutions than I could ever care to use.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

Thanks for the answers, they were instructive.

About mountains in doms I, I have seen many provinces which were very poor resources wise. Perhaps the random value added was too small.
If you say that they are boosted in doms II fine.

if you ever implement a #income and #resource like #population, that would be an interesting feature btw.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im guessing so. Since they have removed the "guessing" part of Dom 1 where you didnt have to specify which provinces are neighbors to each other. Now its a mandatory part of the map (something Im expecting to growl about). So its probably just that IF you build your map to be wrap-around then you can tell the game to allow the players to scroll the map. Which also means that the answer of spherical, cylindrical, or torus, doesnt really apply. The map maker can decide to do any of these.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right, for some reason they seem to have taken that out. They felt it "didnt work right" which I really never noticed. I played maps all the time where I had no neighbor commands without seeing any more irritating non-connects than existed purposely on player-made maps. And the old way you could always add a neighbor line to fix one rather than have a ton of them. I hate to see what the map file for one of my 450 province maps are going to be like now.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They said they would provide some but it might take abit for all the formating. It will probably be just a TGA file you can take from but you can do that with the maps that come with the game, or the demo. Maybe a GIMP brush file since thats what seems to be used (good choice) and then eventually the Users will create brush files for photo shop and corel draw and others.
You could grab the Dom2 example they put out and snag whats in the eye.tga

I printed out the eye.tga and have it here while I search the net trying to find a close match. Some sort of random generator would be great. Maybe some other old game that had a utility to generate maps that look at least close to what the Dom2 maps have. So far "close to" is about 50% off-target.

[ October 24, 2003, 13:01: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

Im so impatient for the demo, and for the full copy Ive already ordered. If this goes anything like Dom 1 releases we all will instantly start generating wish-lists. (Hopefully we will all remember to say thank you for what is there before we start saying please)

Such as, I see screenshots of maps with the numbers displayed. Cool. Very handy. Is this view available in the editor or the game? Are the numbers from the map file or is there an option to see numbers as the game algorythm would guess them? Can the image be saved with the numbers for outside use? For that matter ALL of the view filters, since the maps can be so huge, can they be viewed all at once so they can be screen captured? can they be written out to a tga file? within the editor? within the game? No need to answer really, I will just twiddle my thumbs impatiently until I can find out for myself. They are probably very obvious and stupid (or already answered) questions.

Oh yeah, and can it be done with a command line switch for automation? I see so many possibles here. None of which Id expect to already be in. Im just thinking about outside editors, gimp scripts, and Online journals. "How I spent my holiday vacation as the Lord Pretender of the Marignon Nation"

-- Get a life? No thanks, just had one. Im retired now and get to play games all day.

[ October 25, 2003, 13:49: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is not a random die added. The resource calculated for a province is the maxumimum value on a die roll, so if the terrain pop etc give a value of 50 the province can have between 1 and 50 resources.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

I see. Very randomised so, thats must explain why many mountains were pretty low on resources.

I have noticed a thing too, the sites which give resources dont give their full amount, even at 0 unrest (dont know if it is taken into account). How can it be?

just checked again a pbem game : I have a mine of superior iron (+25 res), 0 unrest, but still my province only produce 15. Is it because without castle the resources from sites are halved too?

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

2 questions about the map editor:

will it be included in the demo?

will a .map parser be included in it, or is it still plain text edit? If yes, will this parser let us modify/add/suppress any kind of entries, or will it be restricted to very specific purposes, like generating a list of #neighbour (eg) without typing them in the text file?

[ October 26, 2003, 19:13: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

Regarding resource sites: they are probably halved.

No ingame mapedit in the demo. Mapediting allows you to click on neighboring provinces instead of writing the #ne...etc (Is that what parsing is? - not familiar with the term, please enlighten me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif ).

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

parsing a .map file : browsing the file and understanding his content/data structure.

so if I understand well, there is no utility which can show the data structure of a .map file in a more friendly manner (with controls, boxes, drop down list, etc.).

as I'm developing the utility which can modify some of the attributes of a scenario file (randomly giving additional starting provinces, etc.), I will perhaps add some features which enable the end user to change or get statistics on some other parameters of your file format (changing the title, naming provinces, knowing how many prov are scripted etc.). I would not like to reinvent the wheel, but if you have not made this utility, I can see what can be done.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

I believe it would be a good idea to make a screenshot of the mapedit. Hmm, there are probably some other screens that should be shot as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can see how a utility like this could be useful even though there is a map editor. With the map editor you can edit the terrain and name of individual provinces and most importantly their neighbors.

However the map editor is restricted to terrain editing and you cannot use it for scenario creation, like adding mosters or special starting positions.

I hope this clarifies what the map editor can and cannot do somewhat.

Re: Map Making Options and Single Player
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">aye aye Sir