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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
The AI could be better. I play with 'normal' AIs right now, but the AI ain't that good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
posting my comment for the 'other' field: modability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Hey! IW devs are already working on the mod tools! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
It seems that it wasn't me the only one, who didnt liked the weak AI:
What should IW improve in Dominions II.? Choose 2 GFX 0% (0) Music & SFX 0% (0) AI 77% (10) Game balance 15% (2) UI (User Interface) 15% (2) What do you think about the Dominions II. AI? Choose 1 Excellent 8% (1) Good 15% (2) Average 38% (5) Below average 23% (3) Poor 15% (2) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Update #1.
What should IW improve in Dominions II.? AI 80% (12) **Interesting** The AI is really that bad? What new content would you like to see in Dominions II.? Diplomacy 60% (9) **Not a surprise so far** Do you play single or multi? I only play SP 53% (8) I prefer SP, but rarely I play MP 20% (3) **I am kinda surprised, so far the majority voted for SP** What do you think about the Dominions II. AI? Average 40% (6) Below average 27% (4) **WOW!, interesting** Keep voting lads! |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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I think, that Illwinter should drop all Dominions projects and start to working on the AI, ASAP. It must be upgraded. I bought Warlords 4. since I've seen Mortifer's post about it. I must admit that the Warlords 4. AI is very good. You guys should buy that game to check out a really powerful AI. Seriously something must be done with the Dominions AI. I don't know who coded it, but he/she failed. Other than the AI, the demo is good. The sad part is, that the AI should be the most important thing on the list. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If you guys cannot make a good AI, drop the singleplayer part, since it is pathetic with a bad AI. However checking out the polls...it seems that around 10/8 players are SPers......ergo you guys should focus on the AI - SP part, but real fast. [ October 27, 2003, 20:03: Message edited by: -Storm- ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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P.S. As for what additions I want - I'd like to see the "Heroic Tentacles" hero ability, and some other new heroisms. It just doesn't seem very fantastic otherwise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Seriously, though, 1000 spells, 1000 units, and 1000 hero types would be a nice "Golden Triad" of infinite replayability=) [ October 27, 2003, 20:08: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
ok, let me spell this out for you....this poll is only being answered by ppl that post here....
There are MANY other ppl that are VERY MUCH not into single player...ok? There are M A N Y ppl that are N O T into SP, regardless of this poll....Like I said before, go to #dominions on irc, ask them what they play...SP or MP....They will tell you. I don't care if they don't post here or not. I don't care if they are in a MP chat room, There are many ppl that prefer MP. I am not sure why you guys cannot understand that. Now, after saying that, I myself am primarily a SP type of person....but I also understand that Dominions series games are made with MP in mind. What you guys are trying to ask for, is getting a game that is made for MP (Day of Defeat....or Savage....), and complaining that there is no SP content. Go on, ask the guys over at #dominions on irc....what they prefer...ask them. Besides...Warlords 4 is a VERY not complex game compared to Dominions. So yes, the AI can be stronger in that game...How many units are in Warlords 4? how many spells? How many nations? Dominions does what these other games cannot...the amount of units/spells/magical items/nations....summed up in one word: CONTENT. This whole "discussion" that the fans want SP...when it is not true...is getting old. I mean, a whole 20 ppl has voted...wow....I want SP content added also...a good diplomacy system would make this THE perfect game ever....but if it doesn't get in...then I say "oh well, MP calls" Please, stop trying to coerce the devs to do "single player stuff" because the "fans" only play single player...stop trying to "redesign" the devs vision... |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Gee, the AI in Doms I has done pretty well against me. I've played five SP games, with pretty average difficulty settings, and it's record is 2:1 in its favor so far (2 games were lost in a hard drive crash before they had got beyond the opening stages). In the one game I am pretty clearly going to win, I was stalemated for a very long time with a two-front land war, and only barely escaped destruction when a third AI (Ermor) started sweeping in from three directions underwater. The AI showed some weaknesses, but I thought overall it did a very good job, especially considering the bazillions of possible factors to consider in the game. AI improvements are always appreciated, though. I suppose if I played it more as a competetive puzzle than as an RPG, though, I might be able to find ways to easily play against the AI weaknesses, but that's pretty much the case in all complex games.
PvK |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
PvK....I agree....I am not saying to dro the AI...but complex games, lend to mediocre AI...look at SE4....the vanilla AI there, ppl complain all the time about it....but, the mods and MP is what helped that game become what it is...
My point I am trying to make is, the only reason I hear that IW should do something is because nobody wants MP to begin with...that is what I am getting tired of hearing...There is a strong core of ppl that play ONLY MP...and practice in SP... 20 ppl voting on a message board poll does not equal the entire game community...simple as that... |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Okay lets think. Around 80% of the people here, on the Boards are SPers. Sure there is that IRC chan. I just visited it. It is a small IRC room with a few finnish Dominion players. They are MPers. Sure not everyone posting here. 3 of my friends, who preordered the game, are mainly SPers. They won't post here more than likely. We can't tell the exact number of the SP/MP community, but the fact is that hella lot of players are SPers. [Propably lot more fans are SPers.] This is normal in strategy games. Since Dominions is a SP/MP game, and the SP AI is not "that good", the developers should concentrate on this, to make it lot better. I hope that cpbeller will understand this. This has nothing to do with the SP/MP community. If IW want to make a good game, they must improve what they can. I am pretty sure that the AI can be lot better. Now that the demo is out, the game is coming, they will have time to fix things, like the AI. Just my 2 cents. (I voted below average for the AI.) [ October 27, 2003, 21:42: Message edited by: Particle ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Hey! I am a singleplayer freak too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I love the demo of Dominions II., but the AI is very average or a little worse. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
you know....if you guys don't want to listen and look at reality...fine....after the devs have made it clear in many places, that the game is primarily a MP game...keep on trying to push MP out of the picture....whatever...
[ October 27, 2003, 21:55: Message edited by: cpbeller ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Even if we would have a community with 50% SP and 50% MP fans, the devs must please both of these Groups. [I think that the SP community is lot bigger btw.] I think the MP part is really cool, but the SP AI must be lot better, so the SP fans will be happy than. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Hey cpbeller I checked out that IRC room a few days ago, and ~10 people were there. You call that big? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
well, you know, i was in there earlier, and there was about 20 ppl....different times, different amounts of ppl....yesterday I came onto these forums, it only showed 3 ppl recently visited...does that mean that nobody ever comes here?????
And, I agree, the AI does need to be upgraded if it is weak...I am not saying it doesn't need to be....my point is this...AGAIN... Why do the ppl that like SP think that they should own the stock and dismember the MP...just because they think there are more ppl that plays it SP? When really, it is only about 4 or 5 that keeps bringing the notion that sooooooo many ppl want only SP.... Read my Posts...that is what I am saying....also, if you read my Posts...I am also saying I am mostly a SP type gamer...I am all for a more robust SP game...but I am not going to DEMAND things from the developers when I KNOW that Dominions is more a MP game.... Case Closed...agree/disagree...I couldn't care less |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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was very quiet. That was mainly because everyone was waiting dom2 and thus no1 played any games or such (if you get my meaning). I've been a #dominions regular since dom1 came out and have taken part both in TCP/IP and PBEM MP games. After learning the basics in SP mode I really haven't touched SP much except to test some new pretender designs or such. I think that I can pretty much speak for the finnish Dominions community: "Yes, we prefer dom MP because there's no way a computer can be as sneaky as another human being. Besides, winning against a computer doesn't compare to utterly crushing the pitiful nation of your fellow human opponent". I've taken part in maybe two or three "international" PBEM games and taken part in the usenet conversation. I also wrote the rather longish Pangaea guide for dom1 (with my real name, Mikko Heikkilä). Btw, the most recent Version is up at sunray's site, one at dominions.tk is pretty much outdated. So you're pretty much right in saying that most of the Dominions community isn't posting here as it is (didn't see any Posts from "legends" like Gandalf Parker - otoh if he's posted here then I'm sorry because I missed it). I hope that the situation will change once people get used to the demo. EDIT: damn, got to learn to post properly in this board, the edits got sort of messy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif [ October 28, 2003, 00:08: Message edited by: Windreaper ] |
Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Breaking away from this rather pointless discussion about SP/MP...
I was surprised by the AI; I thought it would have been improved significantly since Dom I. However it seems somewhat similar (albeit with not particularly extensive testing) - maybe just avoiding the obvious mistakes of the AI in Dom I? I expected it to be much better, from some beta-testers comments etc. OTOH, I think it's serviceable enough. I did get an interesting message from Abysia in the test game I was playing: "we will burn you to the ground" - and this before actually having any conflict with them. Perhaps a declaration of war? ...now back to the MP/SP discussion: I can't quite figure out what's being argued about here. The best I can figure is that some of you are saying that the game ought to be oriented more toward SP players, and that others are saying that it ought to be more oriented to MP players. Silly statement, either way: there is no "ought" here. There is what each individual wants, there is even what the majority of individuals want, there is what the developers want. You all seem to think that if the majority of indviduals want it one way, it ought to be that way. That is illogical. Maybe you could legitimately say that doing what the majority want will sell more games , and so be more lucrative for the devs, but perhaps making the game the way they like it is more important to them than lucrative sales. That would be ok I think. So stop this foolishness about counting who has the most supporters on his side - it is completely irrelevant where the majority of public opinion lies. It's clear that there are a lot of supporters of both, anyway. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
IW has already lost a customer. Me. I am playing mostly SP in all games. Psitticine posted something in the past, that the Doms II. AI will be lot better than the Doms I. AI.
I have no idea, that why did he posted that, but he lied I guess?? I am not sure, but I am sure in one thing. The Dominions 2. AI SUCKS with big letters. It is one of the worst AIs, what I ever seen in any strategy games. I won't order this game, until some major AI tweaks will be done. I can live without Dominions II. so no hard feelings. A little addition for this singleplayer - multiplayer "war": cpbeller you should know, that a forum is a good mirror of a gaming community. Example: If 3000-4000 Users are posting on a board, that means that the game sold a few hundred thousand copies. If 30-40 people are posting, that means that the community is very small, propably a few thousand people are playing with that game. This is true about the SP,MP part as well. If the majority here are SPers, more than likely the whole community prefers the SP. This is working like this, in any games. Just becase some finnish fans made an IRC channel for MP games...that means nothing. Your post is full with ignorant content, cpbeller. No offense. I know lot more about these things, trust me. I think the SP fans are annoyed, because the AI sucks. If the devs wanted to sell a SP,MP game. they should make a decent AI. As someone said, the best would be to forget about the SP part, and make an MP game only, if they can't code AIs. Right now we have a game with decent MP, and crap SP. No wonder that lot of fans are pissed, including me. Think about this, before you will start flaming 'that this supposed to be a MP game'. If this supposed to be a MP game, than why the hell is there an SP part at all? I must admit that the SP sucks right now, because of this dumb AI. Hopefully these Posts won't scare away the SP fans from ordering the game, but this is the sad truth. [ October 28, 2003, 13:06: Message edited by: MStavros ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
you are wrong...but...ok....since you are leaving....bye
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Hi, I just tried out this demo. This is a weird game, but I beat the AI on the hardest level in my second game.
I think this is not normal. In any other games, it is impossible to beat an AI so easily. I guess the AI must be very weak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Anyways I won't argue with you man, you are very wrong in lot of things. I advice, take a look at the poll, just in case. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
As a "mostly solo player" I am hoping for a decent AI. Well actually, a decent AI spread. Easy should be easy but hard should be hard.
But I wouldnt say its the worst. There are alot of games where the AI was little more than a way to get thru a tutorial period. Particualrly where the programming concentrated on MP play. It wasnt meant as a real opponent. I get the impression that the AI in Dom2 is meant as an opponent though. Im still testing things so Im not saying alot about what I like and dont like about Dom2. But as far as the AI thing goes Im just wondering how people tested it. I found in Dom 1 that the AI was extremely fair about how it treated AI/Human players. Pros and Cons. Thats something we all complained about in other games when human players were picked on by AI or when AI cheated. Anyway, I found in the past that if you played with all the races turned on then a player could easily use the AI vs AI combats to his advantage. Especially on small maps. The AI in Dom2 MIGHT (I havent tested this) might put on a better show if there are fewer races or if someone would make a larger playing map. [ October 28, 2003, 13:44: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Do you play single or multi?
I only play SP 61% (20) I prefer SP, but rarely I play MP 15% (5) What do you think about the Dominions II. AI? Average 27% (9) Below average 27% (9) Poor 18% (6) What are we talkin' about? cpbeller is browsing another message board? Huh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
When do people freaking get it? Dom II is made for MP. You may not like the game but that doesn't give you any freaking rigths to post crap spam here. If you don't like the game, don't buy it!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif You can play SP, ignore MP and whine but that won't change the fact: Dom II is made for MP. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
I was under the impression Dom 2 was made for both sp AND mp, if that is not true I will wish to cancel my preorder...and btw THAT gives me the right to complain as I have already paid for the game.
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Last time I am going to post this....
Dominions IS both a SP and a MP game....BUT, the primary purpose of the developers was to make a game that they and their friends could enjoy playing vs. each other, aka, Multiplayer.... Sure, there is a SP part to it....but the PRIMARY purpose was to make a MP game |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Dominions I gave me many many hours of satisfactory SP gaming before I started to play MP, there's no reason why the second incarnation should be any different for the newcomers.
And they will get an improved interface, a reduction in micromanagement, nicer graphics, cool music & more of everything (nations, units, spells...) as a bonus, what's not to like? Heh, come to think of it, apart from MUDs Dom I is the only PC game I have bothered playing Online, so I guess I qualify as a SP gamer mostly. [ October 28, 2003, 15:08: Message edited by: Wendigo ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
I copy and paste what I posted in that other thread:
I found this very odd. I mean propably we all tried out this Dominions II. demo. Aren't we? We all have opinion about it? Is that correct? So if some ppl here don't like the AI, they are trolls? You can't be serious. Okay why is the AI weak? Hm well I have no idea, that how is this AI working, but I played 5 games with the demo. First game against 2 AIs @ hardest level: I beat them both easily. Second game against 4 AIs on map 2, hardest level, I won again. Third game against 1 AI on map 1, hardest level, I killed the AI easily. Fourth game against 4 AIs on map 1, I lost this game, but I had a 3 front war. I won the 5th game again against 3 AIs. [Hardest level] I am not a veteran player. What do YOU think? The AI is good or not? I am almost a newbie, and I can beat the hell out of the demo AI. I tend to think that the AI is bad. If it is easy to kill the AI, what is your opinion about it than? Is it good? Guys even a newbie like me can crush the AI. Isn't this funny? My question is: The AI will be better in the full game? Other than the AI, the game is good. I love the graphics and the music is good too. Too bad that I have no time for multiplayer, and I hate Pbem. It is too slow and annoying. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Most discussions in this forum have been very detailed and well argumented. So far I find the lack of substance in the Posts from people complaining about the AI... interesting. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Question: where is the information, that Dominions 2. supposed to be a multiplayer game? Nerfix and cpbeller are always babbling about this, please show me a site with this information. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Most discussions in this forum have been very detailed and well argumented. So far I find the lack of substance in the Posts from people complaining about the AI... interesting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Patrik check out my post. What details do you want to know about the games? I played on both maps, different AIs, and I've always used impossible AIs. [I won 4 games, and lost 1 but i had very bad luck in that game] [ October 28, 2003, 15:16: Message edited by: Zerger ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Well, guys....play some games against the AI, and post your records.
I had 3 games in the demo, 2 impossible AIs in all games, and I won in all of those 'matches'. ..Oh and I used map1 too times and map2 one time. We must know that what's up with the AI? The devs are played against the AI at all? [ October 28, 2003, 15:23: Message edited by: -Storm- ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Did you beat all the AI players within 40 turns or did you beat enough of them to feel confident that you would win (personally I do not play very focused in SP, but it usually takes me about 60-100 turns to say that I have won a game). Did you win by victory points (the AI might be weak in this area as VP is a rather late addition)? Did you notice if the AIs were waging war amongst themselves? Did you notice any tactical/strategical bad moves by the AI? How many of the AIs were you fighting at the same time? Were yo uplaying a particular nation or theme in all games? It might be that the AI is worse against some opponents (undead). Did you win the war by winning each battle, or by a total strategy (battle AI or strategic AI problems)? Was your wins based on score graph evaluation or by actual victory (beating all the AIs/fullfilling victory conditions)? A suggestion if you want more opposition. Set one AI to impossible and some to normal or easy. This way the impossible AI will have an easy time to swallow up other AIs. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Most discussions in this forum have been very detailed and well argumented. So far I find the lack of substance in the Posts from people complaining about the AI... interesting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Patrik check out my post. What details do you want to know about the games? I played on both maps, different AIs, and I've always used impossible AIs. [I won 4 games, and lost 1 but i had very bad luck in that game] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I have to say I am impressed (I might be able to do it but I've been playing the beta for over a year now. And Dom1 for several years before that). Maybe you are a natural. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I realise that a full account of a game is quite a task, but tell us somethings about the Last game. What was your pretender, your opponents, game settings etc? What troops did you build? How fast did you/the AI expand? How much magic did you use? What spells/summonings? At what turn did you win? |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Kris I try to help you..er I try.
Ok: - I finished 1 game within 40 turns. I stopped playing the other 2 games, since the AIs were almost dead. I controlled lot more territories, and I had lot bigger armies. - I don't know about wars between the AIs. I don't think that there was any. I always killed 1 real fast, so only 2 remained in all of those games. *It is so easy to beat an AI in early game. - Strategical moves? Hmm......I am not sure. I just did what I wanted to....attacked and won..I didn't noticed any good or bad moves by the AI, since he had no choice to do anything what could harm me... - I had 2 Ais against me in my 3rd game. * I don't know that the AIs were fighting with eachother or not* I won that game too - I used other nations in all games\ - I won strategically *I think, that the battle AI is good - I had lot more territories + armies in all games. I've won almost all battles. - I always played against impossible AIs. Normal is even weaker I guess. I will try normal AI later on.. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
Kris, I have a question:
What is the difference between the normal & impossible AI? Impossible is supposed to be more clever or...?? |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
could it be something could be wrong with the different Nation AI's to not be attacking each other? Perhaps that could be stopping their expansion? If they meet up to another AI nation, they stop, so when the human player keeps expanding (giving him/her more and more money and resources) the AI is just kinda small...may be many nations, but still small compared to the human player....the 3 games I have played, I haven't seen the AI attacking each other either, only the independents....
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
The impossible AI is supposed to earn more money and have more design points to spend. It is not more clever when it comes to strategical considerations.
Perhaps there is something wrong with those settings. BTW check old score graphs if you can see how much the AI:s were fighting (provinces going up and down without your interaction). The AI do not wage war on humans on purpose. They choose between both human and AI players (very democratic of the AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). This means that you might attack an AI while he is attacking another AI. It is often not too difficult to attack enemies (in SP or in MP) that are unaware and weakened by other wars. If you have a game where you have won easily zip it and send it over. Please refrain from sending over games that seems OK. The files needed are the ftherland file and the trn files. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
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Keep it civil. |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
A sudden thought: Did you use mercenaries? I believe that the AI is less fond of them than it should be after the new mercenary system was introduced.
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
you know...that is right...Mercs are a GREAT addition to an army...especially in the early game if you can get some good ones....That could make sense too if they are not using them....
KO, how would you change that? just some settings in the AI? or would there be a lot more "re-programming" going on? |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
It should not be too much of a problem to make the AI merc-loving, but I'll have to ask codemaster-JK.
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Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
you devs, i can't keep up with you...you guys need to change your name to Jim, Bob, and Al....
K.O. = Jim J.K. = Bob and J.0. = Al Although...now that I think about it, I have only seen one game where an ai nation took a Merc team....I forget who it was though...but only one....and I usually check every turn for Mercs... [ October 28, 2003, 16:18: Message edited by: cpbeller ] |
Re: Poll #2. [Try out the demo, and vote after that!]
I started a couple games (poor me, too busy to play! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) and always thought the mercs were way too expensive, so I never hired them. But when I checked the next turn to see if the price had gone down, the AI had snapped them up.
Are the merc prices always for a 3-month contract? At any rate, from what I see, the AI is grabbing mercs ASAP... but these games both had many AIs, at every difficulty level from easy to impossible, so for all I know, maybe some of the levels don't grab mercs correctly. -Cherry |
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