Urgent Interface Problems
 

Yes, urgent ones, as in "I think Illwinter is actively losing customers based on the demo because of this."

The one I have noticed: It is too complex and confusing to start a single player game (no, not for me, for newbies) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

In summary:

I would STRONGLY suggest adding a "Start Single Player Game" button to the main game menu, so that you can go through the whole process without getting lost, or ever returning to the main menu.

In other words, you click the "Start SP Game" button, then you choose a nation, design a god, choose a map, pick opponents, choose a game name, and start the game, in a streamlined manner without ever returning to the main menu, with no risk of getting lost, and no risk of screwing up and forgetting which race you can set to "human"***, or whatever. Once the game starts, like in Shogun, clicking on "Next Turn" it will advance the game, and return you to the strategic map (or message list, actually), so you don't have to screw around with clicking "host". Putting a "host" button in single-player mode confuses people, especially when the meaning is not very clear.

Already, before the game is out, a couple AOW2 forumers have rejected it because it seems too complex to just start or progress through an SP game. So, I think this is urgent.

-Cherry

P.S. ***By this I mean: When you start a singleplayer game, you choose a nation and design a god, then get sent to the "Choose Nations" screen. But it is now called the "Choose AI Opponents" screen, instead. Your nation is already greyed out and set to human. The other nations can be set to computer AIs, but cannot be set to human. See? Idiot proof! You will always have exactly 1 human nation in the game, and it will always be the one for which you designed a god... which is what people want when playing an SP game, and what sometimes screws up newbies.

[ October 28, 2003, 17:20: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I suppose it would be easier for new players if you didn't have to click 'host' and such, but I am nonetheless really glad of that feature - it makes it way easier to stop playing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I would suggest having a saved game file, set at around turn 5, with an accompanying written guide, so that people could become familiar with the game for a turn or two while having their hands held. The quick start guide which was available for Dom I was like this, and it was really helpful. Maybe something like that for Dom II, or even for the demo thereof?

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

The problem is not really learning how to play... it's the fact that it seems like such a hassle, and is so counter-intuitive, to start a new game. In every other game, you click "Start an SP game", and you're on tracks from there, and never see a misleading "Host" button between turns.

It would do a lot to make the game seem mainstream and normal. The current functionality would, of course, remain for PBEM and hotseat games, but it would be concealed from singleplayer games. There's enough complexity within the game, without adding more outside.

-Cherry

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I second this. It is confusing for a newbie and people with little to none computer experience.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

yes, but what if you want to save your turn half done and resume it when you can? with the separation between doing your turn / processing it, you can do that.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

Yes but now it makes those turns where you are just passing time waiting 10x more annoying...

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">wow, you are playing doms turns at the speed of say master of orion III (nothing happens before turn 80 roughly).

in doms, and especially in MP, but this is true in SP too, each turn is important. By turn 20 you should already have more than 10 provinces and a booming nation.

anyway, I think you are a bit overstating here. I can understand if the issue is newbie learning curve, but to say that clicking on host is a painful is a big exageration.

Thats IMO, we agree that we disagree anyway.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I don't know, I played very little of the original DomI, and I got it right on the first try with this one. Of course I read the DomI manual a few months ago, but let's face it - anyody trying to play this game without reading the manual is going to have other problems than just "what's this Host command anyway?". OK, maybe they'll get stopped by this one, but they really should read the manual.

Which brings me to one of my complaints - not including even a toned-down Version of the manual in the demo is really bad; effectively, this means the demo of DomII is only attractive to people who know DomI. How much of the documentation for DomI is still valid in DomII? If that's a large part of it, then I suggest they add a link to the DomI documentation on Illwinter's site...

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I don't like expanding too much at the start, its just the way I find fun.

Having to click end turn...then host...then back on my nation IS a major pain in the butt...it would be much better that if in single player it just worked like Dom1 did and it does the turn and puts you back then and there....I was a major fan of dom 1 but this little thing alone could ruin dom 2 for me.

(I also never play multiplayer)

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Adding a pure singleplayer mode without clicking "host" between turns would not remove the ability to save halfway through a turn.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hyperbole strikes again!!!

First off there's a hot key for end turn 'e' so no clicking. Then you get a chance to go back and fix something if you accidnetally hit 'e' or clicked end turn. Think of it as the 'are you sure' promt that alot of other games have.

So there's really only two clicks, which isn't much different from many other games, and if you every play hotseat you've got your little 'blind' screen built in.

Not to say that they couldn't change this mechanic, just that it seems such a trivial item to complain about I doubt they would.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I like the idea, as also discussed in the newbie guide thread, of creating at least one "canned" game, where everything is set-up and ready to go. That way, there's at least a partial fix available ASAP and people can simply choose not to use it if they don't want to.

I do think that adding a feature to the demo's menu for quickly generating a single-player game (possibly by choosing it from similar "pre set-up" games) would be a very good idea.

I think the Host button is better left in place, albeit it with a helpful guide available to explain what it means. Since it is in place during the normal game, I think it is best to introduce its concept early, but that it is also important to put proper, clear explanation along with that introduction.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I wasn't clear in my first post, so let me reiterate the "Choose Nations" portion of the streamlined SP interface:

When you start a singleplayer game, you choose a nation and design a god, then get sent to the "Choose Nations" screen. But it is now called the "Choose AI Opponents" screen, instead. Your nation is already greyed out and set to human. The other nations can be set to computer AIs, but cannot be set to human. See? Idiot proof! You will always have exactly 1 human nation in the game, and it will always be the one for which you designed a god... which is what people want when playing an SP game, and what sometimes screws up newbies.

-Cherry

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

That's about the most concrete suggestion so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Keep up the good work!

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

Rather you find it trivial or not is in the eye of the beholder...or maybe in this case the hand?....by turn 50 that is 100 extra clicks that were not in dom 1 that are really not needed and could be cut out for the single player part.

(hitting a button on the keyboard is really the same as clicking somewhere)

I'm also very disappointed they didn't add an option to make more then one soldier at a time with shift-click or something...basically there is just too much clicking, and instead of 2 getting better, it got worse

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually from an ergonomic view point moving and clicking a mouse and hitting a key on the keyboard are miles apart, that was my point. From a time point of view it is also faster to hit keys than to move and click a mouse, in another thread I suggest hotkeying the host and nation buttons. It would make the wait (small that it is) less, and save some strain on the old wrist muscles.

And you are somewhat right about it being in the eye of the beholder, but to suggest that this feature would keep someone from playing Dom over any other feature is the height of hyperbole. If your main concern with a game is how many mouse clicks it takes to do something (and we're talking about 2 or 3 here, not dozens ala MoO3) then I don't think you've explored the other features of the game in enough detail.

I don't have a problem with a change to the existing system though, I just find it amusing that anyone would feel so strongly about it that they would threaten to stop playing *solely* because of the system.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

It's really alot of things...the color useage was very aggervating on my eyes..there really wasn't all that much improvement from dom 1 (at least from what I can see in the demo)...2 new nations when I haven't even played all the orginal doesn't matter to me. Also things are just too small to ID at a glance on the main menu.

All minor details, true, but too many minor problems do add up. It's just that while playing the demo this clicking thing was what was really rubbing it all in my face so it's the 'straw that broke the camels back' basically.

I was really hoping for a major rework over d1 interface, which I feel was the weakest part...but they fixed everything but that.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

It's also not like im threatening to boycott IW or anything stupid..it really boils down too I would rather stick with dom1 at this rate then pay 50$ to upgrade to 2.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

Personally, i think they have fixed the interface pretty good...sure, there could still be improvements here and there...but, overall, i think it is better than in Dom1....

Do you mean colors as the colors on the map?

If so, i really am not sure how you can compare these color schemes to the old ones....These maps look so good....borders are clearly seen....the provinces don't blend in together like in the first one. The trees, mountains, the mellow colors....I really think this is a vast improvement over Dominions I maps....

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

cpbeller and licker,

I appreciate your comments, and while I don't control this forum, I started this thread specifically for people to post problems that they are finding in the interface. Particularly problems that annoy and confuse them, or that they suspect might repel new Users - which is absolutely crucial to know as soon as possible, before the demo has been downloaded by the entire world.

So when people post their concerns, please don't argue or trivialize them, because A) it causes a fight, B) it makes the thread less useful and efficient to devs, and C) it discourages other people from posting valid issues, lest they be criticized. I think this thread would be best used for raising concerns and posting suggestions on how to resolve them, rather than arguing whether they are real.

-Cherry

[ October 28, 2003, 18:19: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

if we are talking about interface issues, here are two that bother me:

1) I would like a menu which enable you to return to the main menu without having to quit the game. I cant even understand that it bothered no beta testers.

2) I would have liked that the AI settings are saved then restored when you launch a new game. I find annoying that you have to redeclare that 15 AI or so have to be set on difficult/impo level each time I launch a new game (thats 60 clicks or so).
Writing the setting to a text file, and either auto restore it, or having restored with a button (smartly labelled reload previous settings) would be of interest.

[ October 28, 2003, 18:21: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I strongly agree.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

Cherry, stop posting between the time I post and the minute after where I edit the aforementioned post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can set those I believe. Check the file in the /doc directory for command switches. You can change the properties on your Dom2demo icon to set those?

But I do miss the ability to quickly move the the races and use a button to change the AI setting

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I did suggest a way to not make as many mouse clicks by using the 'e' hot key.

Besides, I find it does more harm when someone uses hyperbole to suggest that the game is unplayable due to some miniscule UI item than it does when someone disagrees and points out that maybe it isn't so bad after all.

Dekent has some legitiment gripes, but if someone wants to phrases their gripes in an unrealistic way I will reply to that. Dekent later clarified his postion and I respect that, his own comment about 'the straw that broke the camals back' points out that his initial gripe was founded more on several issues, rather than the one he chose to portray in that post.

Besides SC, you've got some gall to call out other people for useless or uniformative Posts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In case you missed it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1) 'End turn' - 'exit' (instead of 'host') is available. Is this what you mean or is there another menu that forces you to quit the game?

2) Good point and probably a good soulution.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I'm in class and typing in between the lessons heh...very difficult to really make my point across here lol

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You realize that you can do this through the 'host or exit' screen between turns? - that is, if I am understanding you right. That's the main reason why I am in favour of keeping the 'host' thing in there in SP, because you can play half a turn, exit to the main menu, play some of a different game, etc. In Dom I you had to quit the program, which was a bit of a pain.

[ October 28, 2003, 19:12: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure what you mean there, but if I'm playing the game and I hit escape, you can:
"Save Game and Quit"
"Quit Without Saving"

These both kill Dominions II and boot you back to the OS.

But usually, I want to go back to the main menu, without closing and restarting Dominions. DomI was like this too. So I'd want a:
"Save and Return to Main Menu" option, on the menu that appears when you hit 'esc', that takes you out of the game, but does not kill the program.

-Cherry

[ October 28, 2003, 19:10: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You realize that you can do this through the 'host or exit' screen between turns - that is, if I am understanding you right. That's the main reason why I am in favour of keeping the 'host' thing in there in SP, because you can play half a turn, exit to the main menu, play some of a different game, etc. In Dom I you had to quit the program, which was a bit of a pain. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or they could just add a save command..just a save command...like every other game has...(cept a few adventure ones heh)

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure what you mean there, but if I'm playing the game and I hit escape, you can:
"Save Game and Quit"
"Quit Without Saving"

These both kill Dominions II and boot you back to the OS.

But usually, I want to go back to the main menu, without closing and restarting Dominions. DomI was like this too. So I'd want a:
"Save and Return to Main Menu" option, on the menu that appears when you hit 'esc', that takes you out of the game, but does not kill the program.

-Cherry </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm talking about the 'end turn' button, which then brings you to a screen where you can choose 'exit' which takes you to the main screen. The nice thing is that you can go back and redo your turn, or pick up where you left off, so you don't have to finish your turn before doing this.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

I believe he means that when you press 'e' to end turn you have the option to 'host' or to 'exit to menu' or go back to your turn.

Its a different menu than the 'esc' menu.


-edit... not quite fast enough I see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 28, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: licker ]

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

yes you right, and I must have lost some neurons because it is like that in doms I.

my apologizes then

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too much red wine? Well there's worse ways to lose those neurons... at least your cholestoral levels should be low http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

C'est la vie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">2) Good point and probably a good soulution. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Having an icon for each level of selection would be very nice as well, so it would be one click for any difficulty level. One could even combine this with an overall button that would set the level for all AIs selected, but that might be a bit too much.

Re: Urgent Interface Problems
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is one thing that is better in Dom I - both a graphical interface, and no need to cycle through the options until you get to the one you want. I wonder why they changed it...