.com.unity Forums

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)
-   Dominions 2: The Ascension Wars (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55)
-   -   Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it. (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=16583)

MStavros October 28th, 2003 07:52 PM

Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Okay I decided to make this topic, since the AI is very weak.

As I see, the biggest problems are, that the AI:

1.) isnt recruiting enough units.
2.) is trying to operate with small 'blitz' armies, I never ever seen a bigger AI army in the demo so far.
3.) isnt protecting its provinces very well
4.} isnt making smart strategical moves


Tell me what you think. I think these are the major problems with the Doms 2. AI.

[ October 28, 2003, 17:53: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Kristoffer O October 28th, 2003 08:06 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
Okay I decided to make this topic, since the AI is very weak.

As I see, the biggest problems are, that the AI:

1.) isnt recruiting enough units.
2.) is trying to operate with small 'blitz' armies, I never ever seen a bigger AI army in the demo so far.
3.) isnt protecting its provinces very well
4.} isnt making smart strategical moves


Tell me what you think. I think these are the major problems with the Doms 2. AI.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1) The AI is recruiting as many units it can afford. At higher levels this is more than a human opponent.

2) The AI will build up large armies, but this is more often seen in the end game as it mostly uses them to besiege enemies. Earlier it uses several armies to quickly conquer land. If you can anticipate the movements of smaller armies you can of course beat them one by one, but unless they are all caught they will probably devastate your economy.

3) Do you mean that the AI should place armies in border provinces in case of backstabbing attacks. This would be costly and as long as there is peace the armies are probably better used in other wars. Perhaps some kind of patrolling units in richer provinces should do the trick.

4) What is a smart strategical move?

MStavros October 28th, 2003 08:12 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
1.) I understand it, but it seems to me, that it don't have enough units..well this is maybe it is trying to make more and more small armies? I have no idea, but I had the feeling that it never had enough troops.....

2.) Kris, I think that the AI should make at least 1 bigger army in the early game. It is too easy to kill the AI's small armies 1 by 1.

3.) I meant that the provinces of the AI are usually empty.

4.) Well examples: trying to attack your undefended side, trying to focus his little armies on one point, make at least 1 big main army etc.

Gandalf Parker October 28th, 2003 08:19 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
What is the independent setting of your games?

MStavros October 28th, 2003 08:21 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
2 or 3

licker October 28th, 2003 08:24 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
There's nothing wrong with several smaller armies running around causing havoc generally...

The problem arises when these smaller armies are faced with a few different obsticales. The most obvious is when they hit a choke point, at that point they need to aggregate to take it, or find something else to do. Its also a problem when they suffer casualties becasue they are not large enough to overwhelm their weaker enemies, thats a matter of attrition. Even though they win, they get weakened, while the larger concentrated force loses less. Eventually this is a big problem.


Speculating here... but if the AI is going for a rapid conquest of neighbors (indies mostly in the first 20 turns) but loses more than it gains back in terms of income and production advantage from conquering more provinces quickly, then when it runs up against the human who did a slower expansion with more concnetrated forces, it will lose, as even if it has more income and production, it does not have the time to use them to recoup its initial losses. This of course is something that is difficult to account for from an AI perspective, but it could be an element in why some players are seeing AIs with smaller unit totals when they meet. On a bigger map with fewer AIs the rapid expansion should be more viable, on a cramped map, the concentration of units to minimize battle losses should be more viable.

I've got no idea how the AI handles different situations, or if it really does try different things for different situations. Some of these problems can probably be mitigated by the start up selections (as noted in other places) but maybe some more attention to how the AI responds to different starting conditions is appropriate.

There is also nothing really wrong with an AI having some single mindedness, like I'm gonna pull all my units into one army and charge your capital. Either it makes it or it doesn't (game over for someone), but at least it gives the apperance of making a bold move. From the demo I'd imagine its impossible to tell if the AI does resort to this tactic as there isn't enough time to make enough units to make it appealing (probably).

MStavros October 28th, 2003 08:26 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
licker you had good ideas there.

My main problem is, that I never ever seen a bigger AI army within these 40 turns. I seen more, small armies, and those are very ineffective, you can crush them one by one without a single problem.......

[ October 28, 2003, 18:27: Message edited by: MStavros ]

ywl October 28th, 2003 08:27 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
1.) I understand it, but it seems to me, that it don't have enough units..well this is maybe it is trying to make more and more small armies? I have no idea, but I had the feeling that it never had enough troops.....

2.) Kris, I think that the AI should make at least 1 bigger army in the early game. It is too easy to kill the AI's small armies 1 by 1.

3.) I meant that the provinces of the AI are usually empty.

4.) Well examples: trying to attack your undefended side, trying to focus his little armies on one point, make at least 1 big main army etc.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1) I've seen very large AI armies in my few test games - e.g., Pan, a lot of undeads.

3) It's a good move. You don't and shouldn't play thd game by scattering your force to "protect" individual provinces. Your army will be eaten piece by piece.

Usually, you would rather concentrate and hide your mainforce, releasing them only when the fight breaks out. If you need to protect key provinces, you build fortress and have some defensive force (even cheap units are enough) behind the wall to defense against a seige and wait for rescue.

4) It's hard enough to teach human good strategic moves - not to mention AIs.

Can you summarize them in a few clear rules for the program - better yet, an algorithm? For example, before major war, split your army to expand. And once under attack, concentrate them and go all the way to your enemy's capital. But I guess some of these have been implemented already.

Kristoffer O October 28th, 2003 08:29 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
1.) I understand it, but it seems to me, that it don't have enough units..well this is maybe it is trying to make more and more small armies? I have no idea, but I had the feeling that it never had enough troops.....

2.) Kris, I think that the AI should make at least 1 bigger army in the early game. It is too easy to kill the AI's small armies 1 by 1.

3.) I meant that the provinces of the AI are usually empty.

4.) Well examples: trying to attack your undefended side, trying to focus his little armies on one point, make at least 1 big main army etc.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One larger army might be an idea.

I believe that they are empty because the armies are occupied elsewhere. I and JK rarely keep defending armies at peaceful borders unless we expect an attack. The AI probably shares our motivations to some extent. The problem is that when armies arrives at his borders the AIs armies are probably busy conquering other lands. As in most games attacking strongly and unexpectedly is a winner (MP or SP). Then your opponent cannot strike back in time. If the AI attacks you first I believe it would be another matter (but on the other hand I do not now this was not the case).

The AI avoids provinces that are well defended and usually goes for weaker ones.

One thing it doesn't do (unfortunately) is trap humans. Nothing is more satisfying than luring your MP enemy into a province where you can attack him from several directions.

Saber Cherry October 28th, 2003 08:36 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
I know this is not really an "AI" solution, but it might be a good idea to scale the AI's starting army size with indy strength, so they won't get into long-term trouble if they make a bad strategic choice on turn 1. In other words, start them with 25% more units per level of indy strength - +25% units at 4, +50% at 5, and so on. Eventually I suppose they would need an extra starting commander to control all the extra starting troops.

-Cherry

Gandalf Parker October 28th, 2003 08:39 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
I find the AIs doing better on games where the indeps are set to about 7. On 2 I can use my human flexibility to get to them too quickly and make maximum use of the situation.

I think the AI for an indep 2 game would have to operate very differently. Such as investing in a much more defensive position much earlier in the game.

LordArioch October 28th, 2003 08:44 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
I've found the ai rather good so far...more or less like the dom1 but with some human exploits like patrolling removed. I don't see the normal AI beating me but it at least offers a threat...and the impossible one is probably quite tricky.

Sure beats the Age of Wonders AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
Or that of a number of games i could list.

licker October 28th, 2003 08:44 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
How does the AI respond to the intricacies of the strategic map? Do they recognize choke points and make early attempts to gain them? Do they account for fronts and important provinces (ones that leed to many other provinces)?

Once the AI controls a strategic point do they prioritize its defense? Do they look at the list of controled provinces and have a defenseive ranking?

Just questions while I think on this issue...

MStavros October 28th, 2003 08:45 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Hm yeah I understand the problem with the empty AI provinces. You cannot defend everything.

Yeah indy str 7+ and you cannot conquer that fast.

Once again I think the biggest problem is that the AI won't make bigger armies. I never seen one at least so far. Maybe I am crushing the AIs too fast? I dont know.
More, small armies are very ineffective, this is the problem IMHO.
+ The AI cant be bothered if you kill his little armies one by one. I never seen more small armies in the same province, also I never seen an invading, bigger attacking force so far.

[ October 28, 2003, 18:46: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Saber Cherry October 28th, 2003 09:04 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
[QB] Once again I think the biggest problem is that the AI won't make bigger armies.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe they finally understand supply rules? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

I have yet to encounter an AI, so I don't know=)

-Storm- October 28th, 2003 09:30 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Yup, I had the same experience. Well 40 turns is nothing, but still I didn't met with any "bigger" armies controlled by the AI.

Mortifer October 28th, 2003 10:05 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
I didn't played too many games, but mostly Ive seen small enemy (AI) armies. I met with a mediocre army 1 time, when I attacked a home province.
Sadly the AI isnt that good as I expected.

The battle AI + spellcasting AI is excellent. I am not sure, that why, but the strategical AI is lot worse. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Pocus October 28th, 2003 11:23 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
The AI is too contrived most of the time. On bigger maps (speaking of doms I here), an AI would emerge (Ermor often) and roll over the opposition. Then you would face it.

ywl October 28th, 2003 11:58 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
I saw army big enough for early game (at least 50 to 60 units) many times. Overall, the strategic AI behaves quite similar to Dom 1.

I have several observations:

1) AI tends to have a large number of crappy units, whereas human will go for quality (knights, emerald guards) whenever practical.

2) When you're seiging the AI capital, they'll keep trying to retake it. It's a sensible thing to do but being so predictable will make it easy to exploit. It doesn't hurt to add a degree of randomness to it.

3) Even without the tax-n-patrol trick, I can still expand faster than the AI. Do you guys have similar experience? Is there any way to improve the situation? We all know that if you lost the open-game, it's very hard to catch up.

4) Are there any nasty tricks hard-coded for the AI? Any experienced human players would have a wide arsenal of them, the AI need some to be competitive.

MStavros October 29th, 2003 12:03 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Indy strength on 7 won't help at all. I had a game right now. 40 turns was not enough to kill the AI, but I almost did it.....It had like 2-3 provinces left, when the 40 turn limit ended my game.
I didnt met with a decent AI army, I only fought against some small forces...

Mortifer is right. This is very frustrating. The spellcasting AI is so cool, I wonder why is the strategic AI so weak?

MStavros October 29th, 2003 12:06 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ywl:
I saw army big enough for early game (at least 50 to 60 units) many times. Overall, the strategic AI behaves quite similar to Dom 1.

I have several observations:

1) AI tends to have a large number of crappy units, whereas human will go for quality (knights, emerald guards) whenever practical.

2) When you're seiging the AI capital, they'll keep trying to retake it. It's a sensible thing to do but being so predictable will make it easy to exploit. It doesn't hurt to add a degree of randomness to it.

3) Even without the tax-n-patrol trick, I can still expand faster than the AI. Do you guys have similar experience? Is there any way to improve the situation? We all know that if you lost the open-game, it's very hard to catch up.

4) Are there any nasty tricks hard-coded for the AI? Any experienced human players would have a wide arsenal of them, the AI need some to be competitive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah the AI either have small forces or mediocre army with bad unit/commander combinations, IE weak units etc.
There must be a way to improve this...

Oh just a little addition. I think that the research AI is good. Usually the AI is doing good in research as I see it from the graphs.

So battle AI, spellcasting AI, research AI seems ok, but the strategic AI is too weak in many ways.

[ October 28, 2003, 22:07: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Particle October 29th, 2003 12:18 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:

So battle AI, spellcasting AI, research AI seems ok, but the strategic AI is too weak in many ways.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with this statement....

->Hopefully Illwinter will upgrade the strategic AI somehow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

If you ask me...if the strategic AI would be as good, as the spellcasting AI....the AI would kick the you know what of the human players. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 28, 2003, 22:19: Message edited by: Particle ]

LordArioch October 29th, 2003 12:56 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
The AI assasinated one of my researching mages...that was pretty annoying.

Gandalf Parker October 29th, 2003 02:33 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Do you know how to psuedo code or basic? Not really programming but writing out a set of instructions. What kinds of things would you add? Im not trying to be funny its just that for me this would be where I wouild go next after saying the AI needs some smart code.

If (indep less than 5) or (mapProvinces less than 140) then
spend income/2 on PatrollingUnit
endif

If (PatrollingUnit = MaxAssigned) then
go forth as large army
begin new Patrolling Unit
endif

If (neighbor not owned by me) and (neighbor not owned by indep) then
purchase elite troops
endif

[ October 29, 2003, 00:34: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

LordArioch October 29th, 2003 03:44 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
I'm not to be trusted near code...but I find the AI should be perhaps more agressive...I have yet to see a computer player take the initive in attacking me so I can deal with them one at a time. If they were more agressive I'd definitely be losing the resultant multi-front war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix October 29th, 2003 08:14 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
BTW i just saw AI having army of 110 units... I have also seen armies of 30-50 units several times. The AI also uses province defence a lot. The Machaka AI i played against used blitz forces made out of Spider Riders, Spider Knights and Black Hunters.

[ October 29, 2003, 06:16: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Saber Cherry October 29th, 2003 09:20 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Yeah... I'm playing Machaka, with all races on "difficult". Ctis keeps trouncing me, attacking with... oh, around 80 units, on turn 10. This is with default settings (except indies are 5). I keep slaughtering them, but their armies still grow bigger every turn.

I keep finding that gold is a precious commodity in this game! Wow... especially for machaka. Oh, and sacred units are hard to come by, as well. I kind of hoped all Machaka's spiders would be sacred...

-Cherry

Pocus October 29th, 2003 10:49 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
a poster got a very valid point about the AI : the AI dont go enough for quality. This is why we see so many indeps units in the AI armies.

I think the AI algorithm should be refined on what to buy. An ideal proportion of weak troops should be fixed, and recruitment in these weak troops should be stopped when the % is reached.

You can then refine the system by changing the proportion depending on what type of AI level, the type of map, or nation the AI play, but as of now, here is a raw first implementation :

troop quality (TQ) : gold + resource cost

National average of TQ : for each unit (not leader!) type in the national roster, compute TQ. Average it. It gives the average TQ of the nation (Ulm would have a higher TQ than say Ctis IMO). Lets call it NATQ

ideal TQ proportion to be reached:
TQ inf 0.5 NATQ : 20%
0.5 NATQ inf TQ inf 0.9 NATQ : 20 %
0.9 NATQ inf TQ inf 1.3 NATQ : 40%
1.3 NATQ inf TQ : 20%

have to use inf for the inferior sign, as otherwise the post decipher it as an HTML flag http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Troop recruitment:
order of province browsing: to be determined smartly. I can post an algo, but this is not my point here, and it have to include a bunch of params.

so ...

get a sorted list of province where the recruitment will take place.
sort each type of troop available, from highest TQ to lowest. if troop Category is in a TQ which is undermanned, recruit 1. Repeat until no more gold, resource, or TQ is ok. Proceed to the next troop type.
Then proceed to the next province.

improvment :
overrides (partial or complete) should be used if the province has a particularly high interest in the 'province which will undertake recruitment list'.

this is very crude. You can refine by splitting desired proportion between main line units, missiles, cavalry, etc.

Pocus October 29th, 2003 11:12 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
forgot something of importance:

Some of you wonder why the tac AI is so good, whereas the strat AI is average.

The main difference lie in a word 'cooperation'. Cooperating mechanisms in AI coding is one of the hardest thing to do well. It is even more difficult that learning behaviors.

A given leader/unit in the tac AI dont cooperate that much with the other. Sure, it evaluate that casting poison clouds everywhere if your army is not poison warded is detrimental, but a simple fitness function can tell him that. The tac Ai, for spell casting for example, browse all the spells at his disposal, and get a numerical appreciation on how the spell would be of interest.
With that in mind, with some serious tweaking and work, you can get a good AI for your mages.

The situation is completely different and much more complex for the strat AI. You cant simply tell him to start with biggest stack, seek the best objective for this army, then proceed to the next. I wont discuss further the issue, but believe me the devs made already a very good job with the dom AI.

so much for the 'why dont they do a strat AI as good as the tac AI' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Aristoteles October 29th, 2003 11:18 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Yeah the AI should be more aggressive if you are at war with him, also the AI is mainly using cheap - weak units.

Just a question: Can't you guys contact with Adam West from Crosscut about scripting? Maybe he could help you scripting a better strategical AI, if hes got enough time for that.
Just a suggestion..

MStavros October 29th, 2003 04:56 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Yeah, if the indy setting is 7 or more, nothing will happen. The only difference is, that you cannot expand that fast.

I think we mentioned the biggest weaknesses of the strategic AI. It is up for the devs now, to upgrade it.

Oh and Kris, if you had some games against the AI, please post your opinion.

MythicalMino October 29th, 2003 05:04 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
ok, just won my first game...I was Pythium...2 AI's (Marignon and Jotun)....

Throughout the game, Jotun pretty much had the lead in army size and provinces...Marignon just never really got off the ground...I led the entire game in research, something I have NEVER done in Dom1....

It took about 20 or so turns to finally meet up with the Ai (Jotun)...Marignon soon followed....Marignon and Jotun seemed to be close, so perhaps they were fighting quite a bit, and that could be why Marignon just didn't do much.

Oh yeah, game settings: default indeps setting, Victory Points turned on (10 points wins the game)

Marignon, I never seen much of an army from them....Jotun, I seen several 50+ strong armies, BUT, mostly Militia. Some were Barbarian Horsemen, Barbarians, and the like...but, mostly militia. I did see several mages/priests...now i am not sure I remember.

Perhaps Jotum would have given me some trouble, but I went for an all or nothing push to the final VP's at turn 33. They were beginning to hit me in 2 different spots at that time, taking my provinces, and re-taking theirs that I took from them, but, it was too little too late. I had gotten close enough to that final 3 point Province, which was VERY poorly defended I thought for being one of the highest VP spots on the map.

I did see Jotun split a 60 man army, and start to attack in two different directions on one of my borders, but again, too little too late.

I am going to try bumping up the indeps a bit, maybe go up to 5 or 6...also perhaps play with 5 AI's this next game.

Anyways, that was my battle report....oh, I am kinda thinking that maybe the VP's kinda screws up the AI too....Jotun just didn't seem too concerned with that 3 point province they had...I boosted up the defense level up high, and built fortresses in my higher point provinces...

Oh well...will let you know about the next game when it is finished or time runs out....

Kristoffer O October 29th, 2003 05:07 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
Oh and Kris, if you had some games against the AI, please post your opinion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will be away for a couple of days, but I'll be back sunday.

Quote:


The main issue is that humans use very focused strategies, compared to the computer that tends to dabble in a bit of everything.

Sadly also (just like Dom I) it looks like the computer doesn't use it's pretender for anything beyond sitting in the capital doing research, casting rituals, and making magic items. It doesn't use the predtender for combat advantage the way a human would. As far as I can tell, it also doesn't use the pretender for site searching (in person).

On the impossible level Illwinter should have hardcoded more focused behavior. Only allowing certain units, certain research, and certain spells to cast. It wouldn't be as good as a human, but could mimic some human behavior.


Hey IW- If you guys want I could come up with a few simple rules for each nation. Perhaps you could code that into a new level of AI.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Feel free to post them or send them to me. I can't promise that it will be implemented, but if and when we adress the AI it can be useful.

MStavros October 29th, 2003 05:10 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Helpful post cpbeller.
I had the same experience. 50-60 units in an AI army *or less*, and mostly cheap, weak units.

LordArioch October 29th, 2003 05:52 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Are any of you people that find the AI easy playing with the suggested number of AI? It's quite possible to outexpand them if the entire map is empty space because I think they tend to fight among themselves more than against you.
Try playing the maps with 6+ AI and not 2...see if that changes things any.

Mortifer October 29th, 2003 05:58 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
I had various games with 2-6 AIs. With 6 AIs, the challenge is bigger, but the AI is not better.
I think the AI's focusing on cheap units. This is very weird. I barely met with stronger enemy units, or if yes, they were small in numbers.
Right now it is way to easy to beat the AI, since strategically it is weak.
It is making maneuvers with more - small armies usually + those armies are built up from weak troops. = no real challenge for a strong human 'campaign army'.

MythicalMino October 29th, 2003 06:15 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
ok, will try the recommended amount of players (AI's) in the next game i set up...which, i am getting ready to get it started in just a bit...

Will post how that one is going....

Mortifer October 29th, 2003 06:16 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Hm maybe we should send in saved games?

licker October 29th, 2003 06:24 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Simple AI rules eh?

Well I'm sure there are others who are better equiped to deal with specifics, but I'll spew some thoughts out just in the hopes to get the ball rolling.

It seems to me that perhaps the AIs are not focused enough, maybe they have too many inputs to weigh and consider, and those inputs are not yet balanced correctly, or perhaps even fataly flawed due to slight game mechanic tweeks (such as dealing with supply better, and worse).

With that in mind I'd like to see a set of AI styles that focus the AI in one (or maybe a few) direction for the entire game.

Examples of these styles can be picked up from other TBS games, AoW1 and MoM had settings for the AI to follow (expander, conquerer, defender, ...) so perhaps it is posible to give these styles to the different AI nations in a game, and let them try to focus their energy in specific directions (it would be interesting to let the player even pick the style, or leave it as random). If it is randomized each nation should probably have weighted choices as certain styles will better fit certain nations.

Ok so now we have a rough framework from which to work with. Lets try some specifics.

Firstly the style has to be picked (or incorperated) from the instant the AI designs the nation. Lets make two broad styles with several sub-styles possible within them. The two broad catagories can be Might and Magic ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ). A nation with a Might style would focus on creating armies based on strong recruited units (not militia and LI) a nation with a Magic style would focus on creating armies with mages and or summons, not relying as much on the stronger (more costly) recruitable units. Obviously there would be some overlap between the styles.

Sub-Styles could be things like, expander, conquerer, defender, builder (economizer?), researcher, ...

An expander would attempt to expand its boarders through indies, trying to avoid early national conflicts, a conquerer would expand by starteing early national conflicts, a defender would expand, and try to build up more internal defense before attacking new provinces, a builder would be similar to a defender I guess or you could make it an artificier, a researcher would devote more resources to mages and getting spell levels quickly. Furter distinctions within these sub-styles could be based on how many resources are spent on buffing commanders vs. summoning vs. more units.

The main idea is to give each AI a path for it to follow, rather than allowing it to dabble a little in everything (which is rarely going to make it successful). This doesn't go into strategic elements for actual game play, but others can work on those issues better than I can. One thing that the AI needs is the ability to use powerful combos. In fact the styles can be made such that they aim toward these powerful combos.

licker October 29th, 2003 06:30 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
One further note I forgot to add. The AI must be capeable of switching styles (though not easilly) if the circumstances merit. Say the AI was origionally a magic researcher, but the first 5 provinces it conquered were very resource rich and site poor, there need to be some mechanism by whcih the AI can switch to the more appropriate Might and conquerer strategy. I'd say that the limit to make that decision should be for every 5 provinces (or a scaled number based on map size) that the AI gains or loses. However, at some point further restrictions should be placed on changing a style, as once enough headway has been made with a style it is probably a bad idea to change it (at least broadly).

Mortifer October 29th, 2003 07:00 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Mmmmmmmmmmm interesting idea. So you say that the devs should script various AI types, and let the AI decide that when to change it during the game?
This sounds like separating AI scripts! Sounds cool!

licker October 29th, 2003 07:18 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Mmmmmmmmmmm interesting idea. So you say that the devs should script various AI types, and let the AI decide that when to change it during the game?
This sounds like separating AI scripts! Sounds cool!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, it does sound cool, but for all I know the AI already does this type of thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If that's the case then it would be nice to learn what the inputs to the AIs decision making process are so that they can be tweeked to make it better respond to various situations.

I'm no programer or AIist though, I hope that those who know more about his type of thing will wiegh in with their comments and suggestions, but I do feel that the AI should have a strict frame of reference within which to work, that will keep it on track for whatever its goal is, and not lead to as many situations where it tries to do too many things.

Mortifer October 29th, 2003 07:23 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Gotcha. If you ask me this is an awesome idea. Different AI behaviors [main scripts], all connected with a 'central' script. If the situation changes, the central script will change the main script when it will be needed.
IE.
Main Script 1: Conquering indies
Main Script 2: Research
Main Script 3: Forge Items
Main Script 4: Recruiting armies
Main Script 5: Strategical moves
etc.
etc.
All this commanded by a central script.

Seriously I love this idea, I wonder what is the devs opinion about this.

[ October 29, 2003, 17:24: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

licker October 29th, 2003 07:32 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Yeah, your way of looking at it is probably a little bit better than what I described. Each style will have all the sub-style included in it, but each sub-style will have a weight attached to it. Those weights are what will change based on the inputs.

There still needs to be an overriding goal though, victory through might, through magic, through dominion (blessings), ... then the weights for recruitment, research, artificing, ... are doled out. Further each area would have sub areas depending on the top style, so recruitment would have heavy, medium, light, research would have the different schools weighted (or just scripted for a particular spell or combo), artificing also by gem income and combos...

This still doesn't adress the strategic moves made, but it does give a better (maybe?) framework from which the AI can make those moves. Without the right resources and backup no amount of brialliance on the map will help the AI become competative with humans (unless you start giving it massive cheats...)

ywl October 29th, 2003 08:02 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Some ways that I think will improve AI's skill:

1) As other people mentioned, get better units other than a large number of miserable militia or slingers. This will probably help a lot.

2) Use human pre-designed pretenders. AI use insensible pretenders. We can easily make a wide variety of pretenders, catered to the play style of AI.

3) Teach it how to use super-combatants. Among various human tricks, this one seems to be the easiest to teach AI. Put a few items on a big creature and send it out. This, combined with human-design pretenders might help AI use their pretenders more effectively.

4) Castle? I don't think AI build castles on important provinces.

5) Other tricks? For example, it's quite easy to tell human to aim for "Storm" & "Wrathful Sky" combo. How easy is it to teach AI to aim particular spells like these?

There are strategies that are simple but very effective. For example, a Jotun with a simple Wyrm and maximum scales, keep building Woodmens, Seithkona and aim for Evocation 7. Another example is to use a basic Prince of Death for Ulm, aim for "Boots of the Behomoth". Put the heavy Ulm armors and the "Boots" on the PoD and send him out.

Are there any ways to script such strategies for AIs? Or should we start designing a scripting language for Dom AIs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ?

DominionsFan October 29th, 2003 10:47 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
WOW guys, these are cool ideas! I bet that IW will like them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Zerger October 29th, 2003 10:56 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Good suggestions...I wonder...how is the strategic AI works? Any devs can give us some infos?

licker October 29th, 2003 11:14 PM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Zerger:
Good suggestions...I wonder...how is the strategic AI works? Any devs can give us some infos?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes it would be good to get some Dev feedback on this issue. Many of the suggestions made may in fact be impractical with the current implementation. I'm hopeful though that scripts do exist that are triggered by various inputs. In that case it should be easier to both modify the scripts (and add new ones) and tweek the inputs to get a better focused AI.

At the least I hope the AI is using some killer combos, if not I hope that ability can be scripted in for them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

MStavros October 30th, 2003 12:02 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Yeah some dev feedback would be nice.

One more thing: in my games the AI never built any forts! Is this normal? [I can see this from the graphs]

-Storm- October 30th, 2003 02:21 AM

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Pocus:
forgot something of importance:

Some of you wonder why the tac AI is so good, whereas the strat AI is average.

The main difference lie in a word 'cooperation'. Cooperating mechanisms in AI coding is one of the hardest thing to do well. It is even more difficult that learning behaviors.

A given leader/unit in the tac AI dont cooperate that much with the other. Sure, it evaluate that casting poison clouds everywhere if your army is not poison warded is detrimental, but a simple fitness function can tell him that. The tac Ai, for spell casting for example, browse all the spells at his disposal, and get a numerical appreciation on how the spell would be of interest.
With that in mind, with some serious tweaking and work, you can get a good AI for your mages.

The situation is completely different and much more complex for the strat AI. You cant simply tell him to start with biggest stack, seek the best objective for this army, then proceed to the next. I wont discuss further the issue, but believe me the devs made already a very good job with the dom AI.

so much for the 'why dont they do a strat AI as good as the tac AI' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is true.
Anyways, the devs will figure out a way to improve the strategic AI, I am sure about that.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:13 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.