Some minor UI gripes
 

A couple of things which I really hoped would be different/don't like:

1. You still don't get an account of how many casualties you suffered and or caused when you take over a castle. I had assumed this would be changed in Dom II - it seems like such an obvious hole. A message to the effect that I captured/didn't capture a castle isn't that helpful; a regular battle report would be much much more helpful

2. Only one pretender for each nation at a time. You can do the same thing with a pen and paper, but it's really tedious to have to redesign a pretender every time you switch between themes. [my example here is Ulm vanilla, for which I tend to field a master alchemist rainbow mage, vs. 'Iron Faith' Ulm, wherein I use a much more magically strong pretender, to get good bless bonuses.]

3. Light background for troops - makes it hard to see which is which in the recruitment screen, and makes them have a kinda blotchy outline. Aesthetic turn-off and functional irritation. ughh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Those are my 3 main problems. The AI doesn't appear on my list because there's a lot of talk about that elsewhere, and it may be it's a lot due to independant strength setting. What do people think? Do you agree with these points, or do you have other things that you think really need to be changed?

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

I agree with those points.

I also wonder if there is a way to tell from the F1 screen which provinces already have recruitment for that turn. Its a pain to go to each province and check whether or not you remembered to recruit. Of course its easy enough to do all recruitment at the end of a turn or something like that, but even when I do that I get confused from time to time, especially when I have different and interesting mages and priests to get from my indie provs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Increasing the transparency of the gui sorted this out for me.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

Unit stat numbers no longer line up in columns. It is now much harder to compare stats of two units.

What would REALLY be nice is to allow the display of two units simultaneously!!!!

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

I strongly agree with #1. More detail in the casualty reports would be helpful too. So would a way to see which men have afflictions on the army view, without right-clicking each one.

#2 doesn't bother me. I wouldn't mind the requested feature, of course, but I don't think I'd use it much - it seems pretty fast to set up a Pretender/Empire, I personally try something different in every game, and I also don't do it very often.

#3 I'd have to think about more. So far it's just seemed to me that some of the unit graphics look better than in Doms I, and some of things actually don't seem to come out as well, even with a high resolution.

I agree with Saber Cherry that it'd be nicer if the attribute values lined up in a column.

Overall, I think the strategic map and battlefield graphics look much better, but without the right hardware and OpenGL drivers, are a lot slower. So far I haven't noticed much improvement in the rest of the GUI, but I haven't gotten used to it yet, so I may be missing some things.

One thing I wonder about is the castle display - it no longer includes turret interval - have they been removed?

PvK

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Increasing the transparency of the gui sorted this out for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll give this a shot - thanks for the tip.

Does anyone on the Illwinter team have any response to these points? Johan? Johan? Kristoffer?

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1) Was technically bothersome as storming castles are generated in another phase than normal battles. Hopefully we will find the time and energy to implement it.

2) Has been discussed. Mostly a matter of priority.

3) A personal concern of mine. I got the black portrait thing at least. Light background is detrimental to my sprites, but works better with the map etc. I have no immediate solution to this one. What do you prefer (please be explicit)?

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">externalize all the targa you can, interface panels first. It will be easy to replace them with the texture of our choice, and everybody will be content.

I already replaced the wood texture with a plain black targa file. Sorry if you liked it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

Well, I rather have many gripes with the new UI..
The game looks much much better now than Dom1, but overall I don't find the interface has been made much easier for the moment (but Ok I still have some adaptation time to get http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

I agree on
- Dark background needed for identification of units - will try the transparency tip
- Not only unit stats should be aligned, but also Province stats..
Plus I have :
- Why has r-click been disabled to exit menus/windows ? Now I have either to scroll dooooooooooooown the spell list to click Exit button, or keep a finger near the Esc key..
- The hotkey list (key "?") should be accessible directly from the main screen - having to search what is the hotkey for the list kills the whole idea :eek !
- When typing keyboard isn't properly mapped but hardcoded in QWERTY mode - a pqin when you hqve q French keyboqrd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Names have no Capitals either .. too bad for a Pretender God (a pretender god is way much feeble) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
- There's no way to know from the main screen how many units your commanders have under their command ? (previous Shift-s key) ?
- Please make a real "end turn" button that ends turn in a click, and not 3 ! I know this has been done to have the same procedures in SP and MP, but frankly it's a bad idea.
99.99% of TBS games have a different "Save" and "Next Turn" buttons, why not have that ? This a real step backwards from Dom1 in SP (and whatever MP fans may say, 90%+ of players of any TBS only play SP..)

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree wholeheartadly...I found out the right clicking thing Last night while playing..having to hit escape to exit menus is even worse then the end turn thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the reply Kristoffer.

I think I see the problem here: you want the panels to be a light colour so that on the main screen you can opaque them and see more of the map. On the other hand it isn't good for the sprites, as you say.

My opinion is that the sprite issue is the more important, so my preference is that the background of the panels be made a much darker colour/texture. Honestly I thought that the predominant background colour in Dom I was about right; you could maybe go a little lighter, but not much.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The r-click was removed as it seemed to be confusing to newbies. Now r-click is an info-click so to speak. We did like the old thing, but it was something that people complained about.

'?' availability seems like a good idea.

Keyboard things are beyond my knowledge.

Hmm, on the save thing. JK is probably pro as he didnt want to remove hotseat mode in the first place.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">externalize all the targa you can, interface panels first. It will be easy to replace them with the texture of our choice, and everybody will be content.

I already replaced the wood texture with a plain black targa file. Sorry if you liked it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nah, it's some kind of church bench. When it was black it felt so very black. Thats why we have it. I think I prefer the wooden stuff, but I do not mind you changing pics.

Externalizing pics should not be too difficult. Modding feature perhaps.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1st thing: Why not have the hotkey letter a different colour? so like 'Province Info' would be 'Province Info' or something to that effect, with the result that you wouldn't need to access the '?' so often.

2nd thing: Please don't change the way the save thing works! I really appreciate that it doesn't automatically process the turn! Public opinion is not all one way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Honestly though I really do like that you can step out of a game via the 'end turn' command, go do play a different saved game etc., and then return to your original game. Not being able to do this in Dom I was an annoyance. So please consider leaving this functionality it.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1st thing: Why not have the hotkey letter a different colour? so like 'Province Info' would be 'Province Info' or something to that effect, with the result that you wouldn't need to access the '?' so often.

2nd thing: Please don't change the way the save thing works! I really appreciate that it doesn't automatically process the turn! Public opinion is not all one way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Honestly though I really do like that you can step out of a game via the 'end turn' command, go do play a different saved game etc., and then return to your original game. Not being able to do this in Dom I was an annoyance. So please consider leaving this functionality it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make a multiplayer game and play it single player if you don't want it to auto process turns...that worked in dom1 too, and allowed hotseat games...

But SINGLE player should be SINGLE player first and foremost...or at least give us both options so everyone is happy ;p

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1st thing: Why not have the hotkey letter a different colour? so like 'Province Info' would be 'Province Info' or something to that effect, with the result that you wouldn't need to access the '?' so often.

2nd thing: Please don't change the way the save thing works! I really appreciate that it doesn't automatically process the turn! Public opinion is not all one way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Honestly though I really do like that you can step out of a game via the 'end turn' command, go do play a different saved game etc., and then return to your original game. Not being able to do this in Dom I was an annoyance. So please consider leaving this functionality it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can't get your point : I ask for "End Turn" to be split 2 separate features/buttons :
1/ "Save Turn" : will only save the .2h file, for MP use mainly, but also usable in SP
2/ "Next turn" : will save the host .2h file, process the turn and display the turn report, as the Dom1 SP "End Turn".

You won't lose anything ...

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would be ok - I just find it refreshing to not be thrust into the next turn after finishing the one that came before.

Would it scratch your itches to have the button labeled 'continue' instead of 'host'? I mean is one more click that big of an annoyance, or is it that it is confusing to new players?

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

I concur with Patrik, I now find very useful the sub menu in single player, as it allows you to return to the main menu without quiting the game, and his was annoying in doms I.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The r-click was removed as it seemed to be confusing to newbies. Now r-click is an info-click so to speak. We did like the old thing, but it was something that people complained about.

'?' availability seems like a good idea.

Keyboard things are beyond my knowledge.

Hmm, on the save thing. JK is probably pro as he didnt want to remove hotseat mode in the first place. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">About the r-click in Dom1, I honestly thinks that what was "unfriendly" to new players is that it was the ONLY way to exit, and not a standard one !
Now that there is standard "exit" buttons, r-click would only be a welcome additionnal easy shortcut to exit ... better than Esc key http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I liked right-click exit. But it was unfamiliar... I don't like scrolling down a menu to find the exit button. Every exitable menue should have a big "X in a Square" in the upper-right corner, where you click to exit.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

What I don't like about the r-click is that when you r-click to exit, but your cursor is ontop of some thing with a pop-up you get the damn pop-up.

Its better now (Dom2) than it was. Its not that hard to step on esc, believe me after a few hours of game play you probably won't even notice what you're doing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're so self-centered!!! What about all the one-handed gamers? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Seriously, there are one-handed gamers, but even more people that like to play (conveniently) without having to learn any keyboard commands.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

Heh, keyboard commands? You mean like when it says enter god name they want a little keyboard on the screen so that they can click on the letters ala the arcades? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Hotkeys is one thing, the use of 'esc' as a general back up or close window is so ingraned in every computer game I've ever played I can't see it being lumped in with hot keys... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

One handed gamers indeed! I don't care about catering to the minority, just get a damn prostethsis already!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PS. If my sense of humor leaves you flat, grow the hell up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PPS. No one handed gamers were injured in the posting of this post.

PPPS. They may have been injured upon reading it though... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I liked right-click exit. But it was unfamiliar... I don't like scrolling down a menu to find the exit button. Every exitable menue should have a big "X in a Square" in the upper-right corner, where you click to exit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm having a Deja Vu here. Same proposals were made when we started beta testing game, but little later nobody cared. This game (and lots of others I've played) is played best using keyboard shortcuts and ESC isn't so much of a problem.

Since you can order your commanders to search, patrol, research, etc. within a few seconds (using S, R, X, or other keys) it is logical choice to get used to those shortcuts since they save you time, clicks and make game even more enjoyable experience. After that you won’t care about ESC, trust me (been there, done that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

Just some tips on UI here. You can group your commanders by left clicking on them and holding CTRL at the same time (ungrouping works same way). Grouped commanders can take orders together, like move, search, research, patrol etc and makes it much easier to make conquest armies combined of standard commanders, priests and mages.

Another one is that when you select commander, all shortcut commands will apply to him only (or them if it’s a group). However, if NO commander is selected just placing mouse over one of them and using shortcut will set that order for him (saves you a click).

Example: You want your mage to research spells. Method 1 is to select him (left click on him) and press Shift+r, which will give him research command. Method 2 is make sure you didn’t select anyone, place mouse over him and press Shift+r. That will also give him research order.

Method No. 2 is much faster and easier so I warmly recommend it.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But Beta-testers has to stay with the program. Potential customers ("potential fellow addicts" to me) do not. Hot-keys are userfriendly, but they are not beginner friendly (two terms that are often confused) - especially when the documentation that came with the demo was completely insufficent and that there are no "hints" about what the hot-keys are (such as differently-coloured letters in menu names etc.) A game needs to be both user-friendly and beginner-friendly. Dominions 2 is not beginner-friendly at all.

As for my gripes about the UI:

All screens in the game are exited by the "esc" key, except the battle-view which is exited by the "q" key. Let "esc" also exit that.

Have to exit a report screen to open a new report screen. To look at two report screens I first have to press Fx for the first one, then escape to return to the main screen, then Fy for the second one and finally escape once again to return to the main screen. What I _should_ be able to do is to press Fx to go to the first report screen, Fy to switch to the second and then Esc to return to the main screen.

"Exit" buttons as the Last element of a scroll-list. You should never have to scroll to find an exit button.

The "Dominions candles" just doesn't give me the same quick overview as the "grey-scale map" did in Dom I. I'd have preferred to have some kind of translucent overlay on the map to show the dominion (and also things such as unrest, provinse defenses and tax-levels.)

Incidentally (as I don't have a working copy of Dom2 at work) is there any way to select a region using just the keyboard? I.e. not having to first point and click on it with the mouse.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

I heartily agree with Leif's suggestiosn, especially for the Dominions effect view : the candles are not that informative - at least they sghould have a number beside them - and the Dom1 shading was very clear.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that instead of a rather clumsy mix of buttons (that obstruct map view), submenus, mouse maneuvers and keys (that are not intuitive), the game would benefit greatly from a simple vanilla top menu bar (File/View/Orders/...) with dropdown submenus that will give new players COMPREHENSIVE info about the available functions/orders/features... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

These menus are maybe out of date for games since some time, but if Dom2 could only have an interface as clean as Civ2 it'll be a big step forward http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ...

[ October 30, 2003, 12:26: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But Beta-testers has to stay with the program. Potential customers ("potential fellow addicts" to me) do not. Hot-keys are userfriendly, but they are not beginner friendly (two terms that are often confused) - especially when the documentation that came with the demo was completely insufficent and that there are no "hints" about what the hot-keys are (such as differently-coloured letters in menu names etc.) A game needs to be both user-friendly and beginner-friendly. Dominions 2 is not beginner-friendly at all.

As for my gripes about the UI:

All screens in the game are exited by the "esc" key, except the battle-view which is exited by the "q" key. Let "esc" also exit that.

Have to exit a report screen to open a new report screen. To look at two report screens I first have to press Fx for the first one, then escape to return to the main screen, then Fy for the second one and finally escape once again to return to the main screen. What I _should_ be able to do is to press Fx to go to the first report screen, Fy to switch to the second and then Esc to return to the main screen.

"Exit" buttons as the Last element of a scroll-list. You should never have to scroll to find an exit button.

The "Dominions candles" just doesn't give me the same quick overview as the "grey-scale map" did in Dom I. I'd have preferred to have some kind of translucent overlay on the map to show the dominion (and also things such as unrest, provinse defenses and tax-levels.)

Incidentally (as I don't have a working copy of Dom2 at work) is there any way to select a region using just the keyboard? I.e. not having to first point and click on it with the mouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you want any of this posted on the "MASTER LIST" of suggestions? It's a full list of all the issues that people have brought up, requested by Kristoffer. I think some might be on there, but go here and post a reply if you want stuff added.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

I wholeheartedly agree with Leif_- when it comes to the translucent overlay - in particular when it comes to the dominion, but also other types of information (including, of course, actual territory).

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

You can zoom to a province with the keyboard by typing # and then the province's number. The province numbers are in parentheses next to their names both on the map itself and in the Nation Overview screen.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

The esc key really doesnt cause that much trouble, although I would like my right click too, and being able to directly Fx between say, magic research and gem income would be nice too. I often forget it doesnt work and try it anyway.

But in general the UI is very easy to operate. I go around hitting r,b,t,e and shift clicking like nobody's business. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
And the ctrl-1 through 9 to save order setups is really nice too.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

Number 0 works too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's 3-5 key-presses for every single province you want to visit - that gets annoying real fast. You have to either remember the province numbers (which doesn't work for PBeM games which you'll only play a few turns of every week - intermixed with other Dominions 2 games.) or you have to open the nation overview to look them up, adding a minimum of two more key-presses (and a context-switch) - not to mention that you can't even scroll through all the provinces in the nation overview with the keyboard at the moment.

In UI design stuff like an extra keypress or context-switch matters a great deal.

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I really don't want to see the "right-click to close window" reinstated. One of my main annoyances with the Dominions 1 interface was the "right-click to get info only to be a single pixel off and close the window instead" phenomena.

[ October 31, 2003, 08:33: Message edited by: Leif_- ]

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I really don't want to see the "right-click to close window" reinstated. One of my main annoyances with the Dominions 1 interface was the "right-click to get info only to be a single pixel off and close the window instead" phenomena. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, and one of my main annoyances was trying to close the window, being a few pixels off and opening the info panel....

To each their own eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

Another one I've noticed is that if you have a group of commanders selected, and attempt a 2-Province move, it is possible that some, but not all, will be able to move that far. The problem is, the others stay put, and there is no clear visual cue of this (I assume they have "Defend" as their order, but they should deselect, or something, so you can notice this).

Re: Some minor UI gripes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If their highlight turned red instead of white when ordered to do something illegal, that would be a helpful clue.

[ October 31, 2003, 20:10: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]