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Dedicated Servers?
Are there plans by any idividuals/Groups to host dedicated servers for long term games? ie in the spirit of MUDs like Tradewars?
It would be cool to have long running games with 17 players involved. The only way you could do this would be to have a dedicated server up 24/7 so players could play their turns at their leasure. Turns could be open for a maximum of 24 hrs, but would advance if all players ended turn. This is my first exposure to Dominions, and I don't claim to have an original idea here, so don't flame me if this is already going on in Dominions 1. |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
Yup, I would like to see a 24/7 server for Dominions 2. Maybe I will play some MP games, if I won't be flooded with other things.
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I guess I should check and see if the new switches really fixed the problem I had. If the host-mode can run completely without need of a GUI (graphic windowsy user interface which I leave off of my servers) then I could run many many games.
It would also make it really really easy for some web developer to create a web-page for creating the games and managing them so that nobody has to take a hand in it at all. And, if some webmaster would like to pick up a domain name for Dom 2 Im willing to provide full hosting of the web site for free. |
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This is also somethign we may help out with if you guys can give us the details.
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Hmmm I had envisioned a page that would show thumbnail maps of the games they want to start, clicking the map would show a larger Version and a list of nations. That second page would update showing the nations that have been taken and allowing a browser to take a nation that is still open. This would be a good starting point and would be useful if we stopped there. Added posibilities would be a script to create the game. Thinking like a SysAdmin Id say easiest would be just to script adduser to create a seperate account for each game. That could give it an email address, an ftp directory, a web page for that game, /etc /etc. A cron job or a procmail script could manage the mailboxes so that incoming turns are retrieved from the email and moved to the turn directory. The nice thing abot this is it would give an archive of received turns so the game COULD be rolled back if someone REALLY needed to. This was something that came up in some Dom 1 games. A cron job could watch for all the turns being turned in then run the dom hosting by command-switches. The turn files could be emailed out. Maybe made downloadable with a web-page link if people passworded themselves when coming into the game. Upload FTP directory could be managed with each player being given an upload password. A cron job could check for turn files and update each games webpage. Also provice a "countdown" display for when the game will process even if someone hasnt turned their file in. So.............. just as an example.... Lets say that www.dom2.net has a web page listing 30 games showing 30 little thumbnail maps. Some large, some small, some on equalized chess-board style maps, some on maps randomly generated. One of these is a high magic setting game to be called Academia. The www.dom2.net page handles getting all of the necessary players signed up. The scripts would create a user on www.dom2.net named academia. The webpage for the game would be www.dom2.net/academia, the email address to send your turns to would be academia@dom2.net Hmmm thats all I can think of off the top of my head. So far none of this is anything that couldnt run on a computer in someones closet because it wont run the newer games. You could run a hundred games off one machine this way. [ November 01, 2003, 19:44: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
It is rather easy to setup a Dominions II server. We've have one running for our betatesting. The GUI-less Version works very well with linux.
Example: ./dom2 -STq --hosttime 0 22 --ipadr X.X.X.X. --port X creates a graphicless server with an IP a port hosting as soon as everyone has connected and made their turns and at least every sunday at 22.00 If you do not feel like typing ./dom2 -h: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif -i --nointro Disables the intro animation -v --Version Print Version number and exit -d Increase debug level -g --host Generate new turn and exit --verify Verify all 2h-files and exit (creates .chk files) --statfile Create a statistics file after each turn (stats.txt) --finalhost Generate new turn, send out final score msg and exit ******* Network Options ******* -C --tcpclient Connect to a Dominions multiplayer server -S --tcpserver Start a Dominions multiplayer server --ipadr XXX Use this IP-adr when connecting to server --port X Use this port nbr --postexec CMD Execute this command after each turn generation -t --hosttime X Y Host on day X (0=sunday) hour Y (0-23) --minutes X Set host interval in minutes -h --hours X Set host interval in hours --pauseday X Stop timer on this day (0=sunday) -q --quickhost Host as soon as all turns are done -n --nonationsel No nation selection when resuming a network game --noclientstart Clients cannot start the game during Choose Participants --uploadtime X Nbr of minutes before game is created. (default off) ******* New Game Options ******* --mapfile XXX Filename of map. E.g. eye.map --research X Research difficulty 0-3 (default 1) --hofsize X Size of Hall of Fame 5-15 (default 10) --indepstr X Strength of Independents 0-9 (default 3) --magicsites X Magic site frequency 0-75 (default 40) --eventrarity X Random event rarity 1-2, 1=common 2=rare --totalvp X Vic. points available in the world 0-25 --capitalvp One extra victory per capital --requiredvp X Vic. points required for victory (default total/2) --richness X World richness 1-3 (default 2) ******* Video Options ******* -T --textonly Use this with --tcpserver to get graphicless server --opacity X Set gui opacity 0 - 100 -r --res X Y Set screen resolution / window size (default=800 600) --animback Use animated backgrounds -a --noanimback Don't use animated backgrounds --fade Use fade effects -f --nofade No fade effects --nopopups No helpful popups --fps X Maximum nbr of frames per second (default=50) --filtering X Quality of OpenGL filtering 0-3 (default=2) -x --fastgrx Faster graphics (use 3 times for best performance (-xxx)) -p --perftest Run a performance test and exit ******* Audio Options ******* -s --nosound No sound effects -m --nomusic No music --musicvol X Set music volume, 0-100 --clickvol X Set mouse click volume, 0-100 --arts Route sound through aRts (default) -o --oss Use direct oss sound output (best quality) -e --esd Route sound through the Esound demon *Edit: there is no built in PBEM stuff unless you comes up with something. We hope you will http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif * [ November 02, 2003, 23:17: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ] |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
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./dom2demo: error while loading shared libraries: libGL.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory Debian Linux without Xwindows loaded. researching it now [ November 03, 2003, 00:57: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
You must have the X-windows and OpenGL libraries installed. You don't have to be running X-windows though. It doesn't even have to be properly installed as long as the libraries are in place.
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Re: Dedicated Servers?
Found it. I downloaded and installed a package called libglib2.0-0 which didnt seem to do it. So after googling for the answer (Im a real good googler) I installed one called xlibmesa3 which fixed it.
Now to find a webmaster who wants to run a domain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ November 03, 2003, 13:39: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
By the way, the "run continually on a port" example was very helpful.
Do you happen to have an example of a "process and quit" command line for processing pbem games? Has anyone run one of these and have some experience trying to create and host a game without ever walking thru the menu? [ November 03, 2003, 13:42: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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Process a turn and quit is very simple:
dom2demo -g name_of_game [ November 03, 2003, 15:20: Message edited by: Johan K ] |
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Does the command line way of launching a server have any way to include the map name and game settings? I tried launching it that way on a win2k machine, and the process launched successfully. Only problem was that it blocked on selecting the game name. So clients connected and sat at the 'getting game info' screen.
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Re: Dedicated Servers?
Oh, yeah... And...
"dom2demo -g name_of_game" How do you supply the turn data? |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
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On the game-map choice..... He listed it farther down in this thread. The command line switches. The only one I think you HAVE to have is one like --mapfile eye.map since the name of the tga is specified inside a map file. All the others have defaults which it will use unless you give the switch saying you want it a different way. All of those settings can also be set inside a map file if you wanted to create a map for the game you are making instead of using the command-line switches. [ November 03, 2003, 16:55: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
If there is the possibility of people really taking advantage of it, I would be very interested in helping to build a game/server managing website.
If only to be able to join large scale games when everything is said and done. The way Dom2 is at this point, it seems as though it would be hard to organize large numbers of people for playing those big games. Anyone here have Tradewars experience?? Thats what I'm shooting for here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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My experience is actually C++ and VB. I have had a dose of JavaScript lately. VBScript/JavaScript don't have to much of a learning curve to them anyways. Haven't done HTML in a while, but thats what books are for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Linux, hrmm... Thats another deal altogether. Limited on that, unix and Mac OSX. |
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If you guys want we can probably help out with some server space. We are running Windows2003, so I hope that isn't an issue.
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Some people are apparently web designers who have offered to make pages but so far no webmaster has offered to manage the whole package. [ November 04, 2003, 02:47: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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Question about launching on windows machine. I can launch successfully using the command line args described below, however, once its running there doesn't seem to be a way to modify the values without taking it down entirely. Is this the expected behavior?
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If you launch it in text mode it is not interactive. But if you launch it in graphical mode (remove -T) it should be possible to change some values as you go.
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I guess I will start playing with some asp/javascript to refesh myself. Are there any databases on those servers that we can store information to (user accounts, game information, etc)?
No big hurry, I will just test stuff against my home IIS/SQL server. |
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btw, my talent wrt graphics (buttons, borders, backgrounds, etc) rises to the level of totally inept. I can probably handle the actual coding aspect, but the pages will look grotesque.
*hint* *hint* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif |
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Well, damn...I thought it would be easier to play multi games..
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Also, a method for organizing a large group of people into playing a long term game is lacking. That is part of the goal here. With an automated server management system, people could find a game that is starting up and join it. They don't have to try to get a forum concensus to get a game going.
Another cool feature of this would be a way to make games private (ie creator could invite individuals to join the game and they would be allowed to see the ip address/port to join on or only know the name of the game in the case of PBEM since that is probably how it will be handled). Publicly available games would show that information to anyone interested in joining the game. It could also be used to host structured tournaments (long term obviously). Its all about creating a community so that multiplayer isn't limited to 3 people getting together for 5 hours and playing a ton of turns. Not that that is bad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Instead, you have 17 people playing their turns over a 24 hr period, leading to some massive strategic decisions later in the game. Additional question for anyone who has the answer. Is there someway to get the stats out of the game (ie, Hall of Fame, graphs, etc)? It would be very cool to be able to browse game information from the web for people not involved in the game. |
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Something I thought about while pondering ideas... What would be the best policy for keeping 1 player from masquerading as multiple players in an attempt to gain an advantage in a game? This was a persistant problem on Tradewars, and while it would be great if everyone out there were honest, some people aren't.
Anyways... Just writing code, and things pop into my brain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Any ideas? |
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What I lack is not server space, but server space with the authorization to run an executable on it, so that I can pilot at distance instances of dominions (just for hosting purpose). Would your proposal goes as far as to do that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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What I lack is not server space, but server space with the authorization to run an executable on it, so that I can pilot at distance instances of dominions (just for hosting purpose). Would your proposal goes as far as to do that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We have dedicated servers, so yes we have the ability to do that. Get with me offline and we can discuss further. |
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Would your proposal goes as far as to do that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mine does. I can grant full access with no concerns for security. Im pleasantly surprised that Shrapnel has also agreed on the executable part. I guess now you only have to decide if you prefer a Windows or a Linux environment. In any case Id be interested in what you do since most of it might be cross-platform capable. |
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Putting in the ability to create screenshots (write out to picture image files such as jpg) would probably be too much. And those can be done manually using the"print screen" button on my keyboard, then pasting it into a paint program. If the game could maybe have a switch to "export" some information to text files when the host processes then that would be great. It would be no problem to have a script pick that up and process it into html. |
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I adore those ideas! They'd make for some great reading, and maybe even get some new players to dive in and get hooked as they see all that goes on in a game!
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Any insight into the format of the turns files wrt those stats? I don't want to start a discussion that will lead to people trying to cheat by modding their turn files, I just want the stats. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Dedicated Servers?
Ok... Let me bounce this off of people who are thinking of or have written code already, and those that are thinking of running host servers. This is just my personal opinion on how a system could run so as to not be a terrible burdon on the servers, yet at the same time support a lot of games.
--- First "Version" - A game could be started by an individual by simply setting up it up through the website. Initially, there would be no controls on number of players or whether it is a publicly available game (all would be). This would not actually start anything, it would simply put in a game request that would be listed on publicly available games. - Players could click any game on this list of queued up games to get all the information about the game (name, settings, map, organizer, etc). They would have the option of signing themselves up for that game and picking the race they want. This would leave a message for the organizer that that user has signed up. The signup information would not allow multiple people to pick the same race, and Users would be expected to pick the race they signed up with upon entering a game. - Once a certain threshold of user have signed up for a game (threshold to be determined. Can't have a lot of 2 person games supported by one server) the organizer will have the option of setting a start date for the game. This date +48 hrs will be the time that the game is actually being hosted as a TCP/IP server. Players will have to join during this time to claim their spot. - After the 48 hrs, that game will be taken down, and all turns will be handled by uploading a turn file to the server through a user account. The management server will process all turns submitted and post the next turn to each Users' account allowing them to play the next turn. What this allows for is lots of games since no game will be hosted 24/7 from an ip address. The only time that will happen is the first 48hrs to allow for players to claim spots. After that, the turn processing can be scheduled in accordance with all the other games. If too many new games are scheduled to start during a certain time frame, games that were initiated later would be pushed to a less "crowded" time frame so that the server would not be overloaded. Well... Does that sound reasonable? Daunting? What can I say, I'm a perfectionist. If it can't be done right, it isn't worth doing. Question: Linux supports PHP right? |
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I like this. My linux server could actually have a dozen signups running at one time with no problem. Once the game is setup then it could shift to being a PBEM game. Quote:
I was thinking of looking into things like "movable type" which allows an easy web interface for file uploading. That would simplify things alot I think. [ November 05, 2003, 18:52: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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Thank you Richard & Gandalf for the answer.
As of now, I'm just taking some notes. I have a script util to finish, and then a big scenario before restarting anything on my (crude as of now) hosting utility. So nothing will be done before at least january. Anyway, I can only propose a windows Version, which would be a stand alone executable, without any web service associated anyway. So if some people have some spare time now, feel free to start something! |
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I'm going to go ahead and start something just for the sake of doing it. I've been needing an excuse to learn PHP or JSP anyways. As far as the platform, I would probably lean toward Microsoft since transactions to an access/sql database from PHP/ASP are dead simple. Additionaly, it would be easy to write a VB app to run 24/7 that would manage the lauching/shutting down of Dom2 servers, and maintanence of the databases. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Linux, I just don't want to deal with the tediousness of writing a C++ app to do the maintanence on an OS I am unfamiliar with.
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Re: Dedicated Servers?
OK time to resurrect this thread.
THANK YOU Illwinter for adding the text-only mode for hosting. It works fine on my debian linux server. Now to play with switches and scripts for awhile. Questions: Quote:
I understand the --hours but whats the thought behind --pausday? Why would you pause the time? Pause for what? How do you restart it? |
Re: Dedicated Servers?
Any ideas for handling "tyre-kickers"?
By this, I mean people who stumble on a site, click around a bit, then wander off never to be heard from again. This kind of behaviour would play havoc with a Dom2 automatic registration system if it wasn't handled in some way. My suggestion would be the standard "we'll email you, and wait for your activation before we consider you registered". Even then, you'll still get people who will jump through all the hoops, only to abandon the game almost immediately it starts. I know this from experience with other web-based games I've managed. |
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[quote]Originally posted by Arralen:
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You sound like you are back in my territory (but not linux? FreeBSD? Solaris?). I gave a pretty full description in one of these threads about doing alot of useful game management mostly with web. All shell, cron, cgi stuff. Also tossing in some of my own randomizing scripts for which I use YAbasic (for the same reason, linux/windows portable). Check out the "Gandalf's Random Circus" threads for notes on that. I can see a need for a database but I dont see it being so involved as to need a format that would require another program to load or a full server daemon of its own. Simple DBM or even just a dilimeted text file would probably do if I were making it. [ November 28, 2003, 13:31: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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OK some server questions have come up. Apparently the /tmp directorys can be cleaned up anytime no dom2 is running. I may need to come up with some other way to figure out what ones to delete since games can run for months http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
The screen display in text mode is a flood so I /dev/null that but the errors go that way also (no 2> for unix/linux folks) Now Im trying to figure out what map directory structure is required. Apparently making a maps directory under my directory doesnt work if it was installed network-wide. Im also hoping that the -T and --mapfile will bypass the limit on the number of maps in the maps dir. |
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I'm not terribly familiar with LINUX, too, but afaik there should be some possiblities to do this "the simple way". And if you need more complex functions to work with the database and/or want a GUI for administration, why not use Perl/Python/Tcl with GUI-Kit (tk). Or XBasic (code portable between Linux and W32 Version), so we needn't rely on M$ stuff? A. |
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OK new thought on dedicted servers which Id like to put here. I see alot of back and forth traffic concerning email addresses for the games.
If we do create (eventually) a web-based manager for Doms games then one of the options on signup could be "Do you need an email address for the game?". If they answer yes then an address could by created automatically. It would work fine exactly the same as any other mailbox with POP pickup, or maybe forwarded to a real email address. Able to receive and send. Hmmm some sort of proection from being abuseable as anonymous email boxes are. Still it would be fun to be able to create a "MrGreenJeans Chancellor of Pangaea" Pan-G22@ for game 22 in order to play. This way the game players would have a way to do diplomac without the long-term affects of using their real names and addresses. It would be interesting to play without the honor-bound-paladin expectations of playing as Gandalf. |
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Here are my notes so far on a dedicated web server. I have the web server if anyone is interested in moving this along.....
Start signup script with a countdown toward game-start (1 day? 2 days?) make backup copies of gods (.2h files) before starting game. (learned from experience) Run a certain number of turns on quick then switch to midnights (cant run alot of tcp/ip games are once) Dont start new signup/quick until all other games are on midnight. Should be able to run 100 games on rotation. create cgi to upload files create each game as user with email and webspace give each nation subdir off of game webspace give each player .htpasswd password access to their nations subdir use midnight hosting script to gather turn files from subdirs use midnight script or maybe --postexec to move turn files to subdir setup procmail to extract turn files that are mailed into game email acct? setup system for emailing turn files back to players who request it? or setup system for email notifications of turns being processed? Possibly create CGI signup for games. List the games parameters. Offer the nations. When a user signs up then give them the .htpaswd password to the upload/download directory and rewrite web signup page to show nation taken. Requested by user: add password access to the signup? Or use htpasswd controls for that (give list of all nation access passwd to GameMaster of that game?) Create a cron watchdog to keep an eye on the game directorys deleting anything that shouldnt be there so they dont get used as warez sites. |
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OK new note to the project. All started games need to go in a list so that if the machine crashes you know which games need restarted.
Also the next patch should have a "start game and quit" switch coming. [ February 05, 2004, 15:13: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
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Just curious, what stage is this project at? Has it even started?
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