what is your milleage
 

I remember the time where some of us played stars!. A common milleage was how much resources your planet was able to churn at turn 20.

Now that doms II is out, and with many changes in the economy/general development, there is much trials and errors to do before being confident in a strategy for a given race.

I feel at Last somehow at ease with Abysia now, and get something like 1100 gold & 18 provinces at turn 20 (Eye map, indep at 4, 6 impossible AI, all other settings unchanged). The race I use is not geared much toward economy, but well, I find thats I had some economic strength in this game. But perhaps some of you will ashame me with much bigger totals!

So, anybody would care to share what he is achieving, with a given race (please list your settings), and feel free to elaborate on your strategy. Mine was to use assassins while I produced a solid army of Guardian of Pyre. Then the surviving assassins were given some Rod of Authority (with the flame bolt spell) to continue their dark work, and the Pyre army went on rampage, backed by some warlock apprentices.

Re: what is your milleage
 

Wow I can't come close to that... of course I have all Nations on, so there really isn't enough room to grow that big without getting into it with someone who will fight back...

Typically I find that my upkeep is getting a bit unwieldy by turn 20 (with Jotun and Pythem), but I have only 6-8 provinces...

How are you manipulating taxes and scales?

Re: what is your milleage
 

Pocus, how many enemy nations were in that game?

Re: what is your milleage
 

well with all nations in, I can understand that this is blood fest! You are playing 'Last of the gladiator' or what? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I prefer to use settings which leave something like 15-20 provinces for each empire (in average), when I try a new strategy.

I dont touch at all the taxes (well I reduce them until unrest is at 0, then put them back to 100%), as I'm not a big fan of home province burn out (I find the idea a bit sad), and have not figured anything interesting to do with patrols in doms II.

edit for Cherry : Its in my first post Cyber-Marionette: 6 impossible AI on The Eye. It leaves some room sure. I only engaged an AI (Tien Chi) at turn 15 and onward I think.

[ October 31, 2003, 20:11: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

Hehe, its true I do like to beat my self up in SP games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Though my real intention in playing with those settings was to encounter the AI as quickly as possible to see what it was doing for the AI threads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I suppose 1100 income on 18 provs isn't that much, I had anywhere from 450-600 on 6-8 provs, so my average was actually slightly better than yours. Of course my upkeep was horrible as my army was maybe similarly sized to yours too... I didn't build a single temple or castle, and only a couple of labs where I found an interesting mage... Playing with the Neifelheim theme was also interesting as the damn units cost so much gold that it was hard to save enough cash for the big boppers... Maybe I should go with high luck and high turmoil hoping for some cash bailouts...

With Neifelheim I'd think that getting early national leaders would be a big boost...

Re: what is your milleage
 

Ok, I wondered what "independants at 4, 6" meant. I though you just couldn't remember=)

I also play with all nations, because I wanted to encounter everyone and see what the new units are like. In that case, though, the game becomes VERY hard. It's difficult to control more than just the provinces adjacent to your capitol, let alone march on an offensive, for fear that you'll be cut off.

Re: what is your milleage
 

While we were talking, I bumped on a Tien Chi army, which was - you wont believe me - full of Tien Chi (and not of woodmen and tribal archers, this is what Ulm sports against me, rat!).
So I encountered the infamous Celestial Soldiers. Wow. Respect...

Re: what is your milleage
 

Hahahaa I just had an incredible game.

I played with Ulm. Indie str was on 9. I don't like when you can expand too fast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So..I had huge luck and found The Underworld in the 4th conquered province.
When I reached turn 20, I had like 50 Ulm Heavy Infantry [Ulm Plate - more than 30 resource per unit], 150! Troglodytes, and some minor units [priests, smits etc.]
Troglodytes can be recruited from the Underworld. They cost 50 gold/1 resource, so them and my Ulm Heavy Infantry were a perfect combination. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is an uber force at turn 20.
You know, we need an AI, what can do insane stuff like this. I mean if hes got luck with a site, like I had with the Underworld, he should pump out as much Troglodytes, as much he can! That would kick some ***. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 31, 2003, 20:39: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, nice, so did they take a chunk of your pride? Or did you defeat them anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

When Marg sent those 8 Summer Lions at me I was impressed, for turn 15 or whatever it was... I beat them back, but they did take a chunk of my army down with them... If he'd had better mages with them it could have been a problem...

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">150????????!!!!!!! No freaking way! Thats 150x50=7500 GOLD!!!! ALL THIS IN TURN 20? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: what is your milleage
 

Oooops. I meant 50 Troglodytes. not 150 lol. Grrrr, sorry.
I have huge luck in this game. I had found lot of cool sites. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I am at turn 30 now, my Troglodyte army is getting bigger and bigger. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
[Conquering indies very easily with this army.]
[[Indies str is on 9 btw, but those indy armies didnt liked trample. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hehe it's ok.
Btw these magic sites can unbalance the game, especially the early game. I mean Ulm Heavy Inf (resources) + Troglodytes (Gold) is an unbeatable combo in the early game. If someone is near you without any luck, he is toast.

[ October 31, 2003, 20:55: Message edited by: Particle ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, nice, so did they take a chunk of your pride? Or did you defeat them anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

When Marg sent those 8 Summer Lions at me I was impressed, for turn 15 or whatever it was... I beat them back, but they did take a chunk of my army down with them... If he'd had better mages with them it could have been a problem... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Summer lions seems to me overpriced now. They doubled in cost. Sure they are nasty beasts, but are very vulnerable to damage spells (no prot). I'm very unsure I will recruit them now (keeping my gems for items or Fire Snakes).

As for my encounter with the army of Tien Chi, I have still to hand to hand the Celestial Soldiers, as it was mainly a clash between my heavy infantries of Humanbred and their pikemen. I killed most of them (poor prot), but in the end I routed before reaching the leader's line (with the Horse-Men as bodyguards it seems), thanks to a constant rain of arrows from mongols archers. I find the enemy disposition more elaborate than in doms I by the way.

Well, I'm cornering them now, the battle will be interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hehe it's ok.
Btw these magic sites can unbalance the game, especially the early game. I mean Ulm Heavy Inf (resources) + Troglodytes (Gold) is an unbeatable combo in the early game. If someone is near you without any luck, he is toast. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Haha, you know, luck is very important in strategy games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Luck + Skill = Total ownage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have not checked out fire snakes, but huge, strong, supply-free maintenance-free ethereal heat-radiating troops are really good, no matter how much they cost. My experience in DomsI was that seasonal spirits would have still been useful at triple the cost.

As for the celestial warriors, I know what you mean=) I was used to stomping the puny Tien Chi wimps with my big Jotun spearmen, but then these huge celestial warriors come along with insane stats, and blessed with 8 extra flaming armor-piercing damage. Wow. Even 1-on-1 I was outclassed, but I was outnumbered, too=) Are the maintenace free? They seem to be summons, not buildable... also, anyone know how much they cost (in gems, unless they're free)?

One more thing - the default Jotun theme lost the special site for summoning longdead giants. Ouch!

Re: what is your milleage
 

>I feel at Last somehow at ease with Abysia now, and get something like 1100 gold & 18 provinces at turn 20 (Eye map, indep at 4, 6 impossible AI, all other settings unchanged).

I ran a game to see how well I'd do using the same settings.

I used a red dragon (fire 2, earth 8), order3, prod 3, heat 3, death 3, luck 1, drain 3.

Totally ordrinary game, some ups, some downs. I lost an important army by surprise when Arco showed up with an unexpected army that had 8 elephants, 20 HC, and about 100 assorted junk.

On turn 20: 36 provinces, income 1602.

If I had a bit of luck or had played a shard smarter I probably could have gotten another 20% out of things.

Re: what is your milleage
 

Apoger, "wasting" 80 points just to get Earth 1 + all the way to 8 and taking Death didn't affect the outcome?

[ October 31, 2003, 21:40: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">impressive. I had only +3 order, the rest at neutral (was using a rainbow mage, which didnt pay).

Drain 3, so I suppose you didnt do any significant research? I try to not bias my pretenders just because this is the demo (you can play without research). Would you take Drain 3 as Abysia in a normal game, where there cheapest mage is at 200 gp (without blood of human theme) ?

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obviously not.

The growth/death scale has never been very important for Abysia, and it's even less so in Dom II. The earth skill was important for the fast land grab. In a multiplayer game I would probably use astral-8 rather than earth-8, and use a green dragon rather than red. This would be a slower super combatant but would provide a stronger mid-game for use against human opponents who are better prepared than the computer AI.

Re: what is your milleage
 

>Would you take Drain 3 as Abysia in a normal game, where there cheapest mage is at 200 gp

The apprentice warlocks are 150.

No, I'd probably go prod-0 magic-0. I'd make many extra mages and my expansion would be slower. However I'd have a much stronger mid-end game.

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, nice, so did they take a chunk of your pride? Or did you defeat them anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

When Marg sent those 8 Summer Lions at me I was impressed, for turn 15 or whatever it was... I beat them back, but they did take a chunk of my army down with them... If he'd had better mages with them it could have been a problem... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Summer lions seems to me overpriced now. They doubled in cost. Sure they are nasty beasts, but are very vulnerable to damage spells (no prot). I'm very unsure I will recruit them now (keeping my gems for items or Fire Snakes).

As for my encounter with the army of Tien Chi, I have still to hand to hand the Celestial Soldiers, as it was mainly a clash between my heavy infantries of Humanbred and their pikemen. I killed most of them (poor prot), but in the end I routed before reaching the leader's line (with the Horse-Men as bodyguards it seems), thanks to a constant rain of arrows from mongols archers. I find the enemy disposition more elaborate than in doms I by the way.

Well, I'm cornering them now, the battle will be interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When I was playing as Machaka, I didn't have that much trouble with Tien Chi, until I tried to storm their castle and discovered the Crystal Heart bug. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

But then, I did have a level 5 priest (national hero prophet) and about 10 Black Hunters... those things are amazing. (Which they ought to be for their cost of 125/38.)

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">impressive. I had only +3 order, the rest at neutral (was using a rainbow mage, which didnt pay).

Drain 3, so I suppose you didnt do any significant research? I try to not bias my pretenders just because this is the demo (you can play without research). Would you take Drain 3 as Abysia in a normal game, where there cheapest mage is at 200 gp (without blood of human theme) ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok may I ask that what is the whole point in this?
I mean you are grabbing 20 provinces, but you will loose them hellish fast, since you cannot protect them.

I myself prefer to get less territories and focusing to make an elite army meanwhile.
Well depends..I love to play with Indy str 9. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*Blink* You spent 360 points on an outside level 8 for a dragon? I suppose with Abysia you have a ton of extra points, but did you really think it was worth it -- e.g. wouldn't you have been better off spending 240 of those points on Magic +3? What about Air Magic?

Also what was so key about the extra reinvigoration? It seems nice, but I'm failling to see how it would be key to early expansion.

[ October 31, 2003, 23:06: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

>Also what was so key about the extra reinvigoration? It seems nice, but I'm failling to see how it would be key to early expansion.


I took the earth magic in order to pump up the protection value of the dragon. Pro 24 is plenty good (the dragon form eats 2 levels of skill).

Place the dragon in the rear. Have it hold X2. Then attack rearmost.

Start attacking provinces from the very start. One extra province per turn is nice nice nice. The extra economy pays for mages to bring me up to speed later on.

In retrospect I should have used earth-9 in order to boost the lava warriors. I did that in a game on Tuesday and it worked great. The extra protection and reinvig is just what they need.

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont quite understand your issue? By turn 20, I had 2 strong armies running, so I would have no problems defending against incoming threat. This is what I have done anyway, as Tien Chi started to strike at my holdings begining at turn 15. They got repulsed in a matter of turn.

If your profile is to make slow advance, turtle, then resume, then it wont work that well in multiplay, or even in solo when you face a strong AI (which has gobbled another one). Frederick the Great said that he which want to defend everything defend nothing. So you'd better have a mobile response force, and dont worry in putting some forces in each of your province.

edit : typo

[ November 01, 2003, 06:20: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

Oh yes I know Pocus, but can you expand fast, when the indy str is on 9? I cannot make it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: what is your milleage
 

no I wont play with indep 9 as of now, for 2 reasons :

I have only 40 turns for the demo, I dont want to fight indeps all the time.

indep 9, with the reduction of gold income, wont be seen much in MP. And when I play solo, this is to test a strategy that can be valid in MP.

Re: what is your milleage
 

Oh I got it. Yup 9 indy str for MP sounds a little too much, however if you don't like to expand fast, it can be fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
[I prefer to play SP anyways.]

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed nice. I had almost the same results.

I met with an AI army in that game, and it had more than 300 units. [Man - Impossible.] As usual, mostly cheap units, but still that was an impressive army.

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I like strong indeps, so in Dom2 I play Indie 8-9 plus Rich world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: what is your milleage
 

Just saw poor Mictlan having his castle stormed by Ulm (680 units). The Ulmish army was composed of woodmen, milicia, light infantries, and a core of 50 Ulm national units.

Something ought really to be done to correct this, it is starting to be annoying. I want to fight Ulm, not a horde of half washed woodmen! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


correction, the battle ended after 10 mn (real time), with the routing of Ulm. Roughly 75 units killed by his own archers, then the remainded failed to hit the Mictlan Stone God (with Mist form), and as they starved, everybody fled. Ulm fielded in fact only a single mage, a single Commander of Ulm, and a 30 guardians, the rest being a useless rabble.
Not very optimized http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ November 01, 2003, 20:27: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sad....This AI needs some huge update.

Pocus you were with Mictlan? Or how did you seen that battle?

[ November 01, 2003, 21:33: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Re: what is your milleage
 

You guys are too good. On turn 20, I had maybe 370 gold income and about a dozen provinces, and was about to get steamrollered by Marignon. No wonder you guys think the AI is lame. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: what is your milleage
 

PvK, like many newer players you haven't gotten the hang of some of the games efficiencies. Once you are on track things get much easier.

Try making a super combatant pretender (everyone else will in such a magic rich enviornment).

For a simple way to learn try;

A Manticore
astral - 6
earth - 1

Research alteration - 3, enchantment - 3

Place the Manticore in the rear.
Orders to cast: Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Ironskin, Personal Luck, Astral Weapon.
Then attack rearmost.

Send it in alone, you don't want to rout when your army loses a morale check.

Get it rings that protect versus elements if you are attacking a cold or heat nation. Get a ring of tamed lightning if attacking an air nation.

This simple configuration will cut through 95% of conventional armies like a hot knife through butter. Use it to gobble up provinces and abuse the computer AI.

It's not invincible. But will handle a whole lot of trouble.

This will put you on the path towards understanding the potency of super combatants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: what is your milleage
 

Alex, I'm trying very hard to not play super combatting pretenders (I took a rainbow mage in the report I posted).

Alas, I know that you are quite right, its so easy to take one and start to take provinces from turn 1.

I dont know for sure how MP will play, but I have a strong and bad feeling.

I think the fix which could change the problem is a major increase in cost of all combat pretenders. The Natajara stayed at 0 for example. Thus Arco will mostly play Nata. I would goes as far to rise his cost to 150, and doing the same to many HP-heavy pretenders.
Then perhaps people would try something else.

Re: what is your milleage
 

The ONLY way to fix this supercombattant abuse, if the pretenders cannot move out from their home province.
Yes, that should work. I cannot think about anything else to solve this problem.

Re: what is your milleage
 

you are 'solving' the pretender issue by killing a valid strategy in the game, valid in the sense that with a correct tweak, it would remains balanced and interesting.

I would prefer a more positive change, which still allows this strategy, but toned down.

And Last but not least, you are not changing the issue dealing with super commanders (Devils, Golems), etc. In fact you are worsening it because players unable to recruit these wont even have their pretender to counter the threat.

Re: what is your milleage
 

In Dom I the balance to super combatants was mages. Unfortunately mages had the stuffing beat out of them in Dom II. More expensive, plus many spells that were used for super combatants are much weaker.

I liked this system. Players should have MORE options, not less. If there is an issue, put in a counter rather than removing the issue.

I can think of many ways to do it, but the question is IW willing to make changes?

Re: what is your milleage
 

I don't agree. Anyways I've made a topic about this, reply there if you want.