Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

Thought I would try and tweak the combat AI a bit, so I modified some of the races to use missiles (AI_DesignCreation.txt) and changed the AI and default strategy files to Maximum Weapons Range rather than Optimal Firing Range. I then started up a game on a small map with only the modified races in it (removed the other races from the Races Directory).

After a while I noticed that some races were doing slightly better in space combat than others, so I switched the computer players to human players and had a look. Some of the computer players only had missiles on their ships and all the fleets that existed had Maximum Weapons Range selected as their strategy. I then initiated tactical combat using each of the races.
The result was very interesting. The ships equipped only with missiles began "missile dancing" against the other ships and killed them after several rounds of combat. The ships with mixed weapons kept trying to close to maximum weapons range for their short range weapons (anti-proton beams, DUC's etc) and kept running head first into the missiles launched from the other ships.

This suggests to me that the combat routine will need to be altered to include a calculation of enemy missile strength vs friendly point defence strength, which could be used to switch the Strategy mode to "Dont Get Hurt" if the ratio was too unfavourable. Alternatively, some new strategy may have to be developed (Minimise Damage?).
At this stage I cannot see modifying the txt files will help much, although I am looking to test AI ships packed with higher point defence levels.

Therefore, I am looking at creating a new ship class for the AI (Aegis class?) which would be filled exclusively with missiles and point defence. The current Attack class ship would have its point defence heavily beefed up too.
I have two questions though;
1) Does anyone know whether there are any problems with adding a new ship class to the AI_DesignCreation.txt files?,
2) What does the text "spaces per one" mean in the AI_DesignCreation.txt files? The Default_AI_DesignCreation.txt has point defence as 250 and I'm not sure what it means.
I would appreciate any comments people may have before I start modding.
Regards,

God Emperor

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

God Emporer-

In response to:

(1) the "classes" of ships are called by the AI via their "AI_construction_vehicle" files. Currently, there is no way to have the AI build additional "classes" of ships other than the default "attack," "defense" etc. However, having said that you CAN create different types of "attack" or "defense" ships, etc. See the Darlok and Sergetti design files in the Mod Pack 1.01. You can also further differentiate designs based on hull size (see the Darlok). The only problem is - you cannot tell the AI to build xx number of missile ships, or xx number of Aegis defense ships, etc.

(2) There are a number of good threads on this over the past month, but essentially if I have Point Defense per one = 250. You look at the hull size (e.g. destroyer with a 300kt) and divide it into the xx per one (we think the computer rounds up in most cases). In this case, the AI "should" build 2 PD's into the design if it has researched the component with that ability and has more room. It gets a bit more complicated this, but you really should refer back to those threads for further detail. If you still have questions (we all still do) let me know and I will try to help. I pretty much monitor this board off/on while at work, so I will be here until 6 EST.

Later
-TG

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 30 January 2001).]

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

Yes, the vulnerability of the "straight ahead" attack style of the AI to missile dancing has been noted both here and on the beta forums many times. So far, none of our suggestions for modifying the way missiles work or re-arranging the default techs of the game has been applied. You should realize, though, that ships which carry only capital ship missiles have vulnerabilities of their own. For example, their main armament is useless against satellites. If a huge fleet of these ships pops through a warp point and finds dozens of heavily armed satellites waiting for them they will be slaughtered since only their point-defense guns will work against the sats. The same problem occurs against a race that relies heavily on fighters. Missiles cannot target fighters either and the "Earth Alliance" mod race would probably wipe the floor with any of the default races that merely had the "missile dance" strategy. It's probably wise not to setup a race to use ONLY missiles. Too bad you cannot tell it what proportion of it's "attack" or "defense" ships should use a particular design so you could maintain a favored style.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 30 January 2001).]

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

These are excellent observations God Emperor. Also, that is the main reason why I have Sergetti (or the Xi'Chung I am working on) design ships that have either missiles or beam weapons, but not both in the same time. The AI simply moves to the maximum range of its shortest-range weapon and tries to maintain that distance. So basically when a race has missile ships with 1 APB on them, that APB has effect of bringing that ship in range of enemy weapons where it is heavily outgunned (unless faced with the similar design). It is the worst scenario possible for AI (or human in strategic combat). Much better results are displayed by designs that have beams weapons as their primary weapon and missiles as secondary, where this design won't be outgunned by enemy ships in close range (excluding other factors like tech levels, etc.). Of course I prefer to have specialized ships that have either missiles or beams (or torpedoes), simply because they are optimized for their purpose - no unnecessary components on them, they are made either for close combat or missile combat (Xi'Chung have a long range non-missile combat ship, though).

These things can be edited by modding, and I got my hand full so far doing it. This design flaw is one of the reasons why choose to mod the original races in the first place - the original races can be much more fun if they would be more optimized overall. Most of the game text files have lots of things that are obsolete in them and hurt AI, because of the pace the new patches are coming out - it would take too much time for MM to get through them all each time they make changes in the game. This is where the modders could help - if we optimize AI text files, the overall AI would kick a$$.

Just like the Baron said, it would be very helpful if we could tell AI what proportion to use in building a selected style. Also, it would be helpful if we could tell AI to break formation as soon as enemy gets in range of their weapons, so missile ships would break formation and start missile dance, while short-range ships would close in on enemy. It would make combat against AI much harder.

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

And a side benefit of improving the AI is that strategic combat would be a better option; since strategic combat uses the AI routines for your own ships as well, any improvement to AI combat improves your own strategic combat...

Just in case no-one's pointed that out yet http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
And a side benefit of improving the AI is that strategic combat would be a better option; since strategic combat uses the AI routines for your own ships as well, any improvement to AI combat improves your own strategic combat...

Just in case no-one's pointed that out yet http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO that would not be the case. Since you're both using the same AI files (in strategic combat), ship design, strategy (Max Range, Dont Get Hurt, etc), and formations are really the key factors.

However, I'm not that knowledgeable about modding. If the AI's use their own "Strategic Combat" files, then my argument holds no water....



[This message has been edited by rdouglass (edited 30 January 2001).]

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

I'd been wondering how the ranges worked. I thought that if you have a destroyer, fer instance, with CSM and Mesons, that it would fire the missiles, move in for meson fire and dart back out to fire missiles after they are reloaded. So that is not the case?

------------------
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Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

rdouglass: let me clarify. I meant that if the AI combat style improves (not just ship design, etc.) to the point where it can hold its own against a player using tactical combat, players could rely more on strategic combat for themselves. There are times when we all have to play in tactical, because the computer doesn't make the same decisions we would and loses even with superior firepower. My personal pet peeves are leaving a carrier at the far side of a battle while it launches fighters for five or six combat turns. This strings the fighters out too much, giving PD cannon a better chance to take them out; if the carrier kept moving with the already-launched fighters, the Last fighters launched wouldn't be so far behind and the attack density is better. My other favorite is when my balanced missile ship/beam weapon fleet decides to blindly follow the leader, so I either end up with missile ships at beam weapon range or beam weapon ships at missile range (that Last one really cheesed me off when attacking a planet once - all my ships stayed at range 12 because the missile ship had been designated leader; not a single beam weapon ship had a chance to fire, and the missiles weren't enough to destroy the colony, so I had to attack again).

Now, I agree that when using strategic combat in fleet vs. fleet situations, the fleet with better ships/better formation/better choice of "strategy" SHOULD win. And this should hold true no matter how good or how bad the AI is at strategic combat, since it all uses the same strategy file. HOWEVER, I have seen superior fleets take unnecessary losses because of silly mistakes; other than the ones I've already mentioned, I've also watched my ships fire on an enemy ship loaded with planetary napalm (obviously, there was no planet in the sector, otherwise I'd WANT to get rid of the planetary assault ship), just because it appeared to be the "heaviest armed" or "biggest" ship (not certain which trigger it was) and left the slightly smaller ship loaded with Graviton Hellbore V's alone long enough for it to do damage. In tactical, I would have left the planetary napalm ship alone (since it couldn't do any damage to my ships) and focused on the Hellbore ship. When the computer is smart enough to do this for me, I'll be much more likely to use strategic combat. Even if it means the AI is better at strategic combat too. Heck, given the fact that I occasionally miscalculate range or lose track of a fighter group or two, the computer may even end up doing a BETTER job, since it never miscalculates or loses track of a ship just because it's outside the "combat window". It would also be nice if "Don't Get Hurt" wasn't interpreted to mean "run to the nearest corner and wait for the enemy to surround you and beat you into flaming pieces of debris". Again, even if meant I had to chase the AI's colony ships all over the map too.

Oh - I've also had my OWN planetary napalm ship destroyed in fleet engagements because it didn't want to break formation and hide in a corner with the supply ship. At least the supply ship is allowed to break formation and hide...

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

DirectorTsaarx, That definitely clarifies the issue and I agree with your arguments completely. I too experience the same problems with S Combat and wish that was improved significantly. However, I currently use strategic combat almost all the time since I can generally "whoopa$$" on the Ai in tactical 'cause the AI is weak (and all the reasons you mentioned below). It makes for more challenging games and requires more though with the ship design, formation, etc.

Good post and good topic!!!

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

Yeah, at the moment I'm not worried about making the game more challenging - each of the top three empires have TWICE my score, and have stayed that way for the Last 50-100 turns. Of course, I've only met one of those three races, and even though we've been at war for the Last 50 turns, neither of us had bothered the other beyond the occasional skirmish in an unclaimed system. Now that I've finally eradicated my other major opponent, though, I expect things will change...

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

Thanks guys. Tampa_Gamer, I'll check out the mod pack but what threads are you referring too? I have read most but there are a lot posted now....

Also, just to clarify, I was not advocating arming the computer only with ships equipped with missiles and point defence, just that they have separate classes so that each type of ship (missile-PD, beam-PD) can operate more effectively. I do take the point though that the lack of control over the ratio of the two types of ship may lead to problems in some circumstances....

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

This topic is very interesting, I have a question though :

Is there a file(s) that tells the AI what to do during strategic combat ?

I understand that the formation and strategy of the fleet will have an impact, but how do you evaluate (or guess) what the computer will do based on your design ?

For example, I read that if your fleet is using maximum range and your ship have direct fire/missile weapons, the fleet won't take advantage of its long range with missiles, it will move in to get within range of its direct fire. How am I supposed to know this ? What file dictactes this behavior ?

This is interesting because I recently was testing various design of ships with different weapons. The most successfull design had missiles weapons only and maximum range strategy. The moment you would add a direct fire, it wouldn't perform as good. I guess I know why now. But without this thread, I couldn't have guessed why ?

I'm tired of all this guessing...

thecyclemania

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thecyclemania:
Is there a file(s) that tells the AI what to do during strategic combat ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only file that does that is DefaultStrategies.txt located in 'DATA' folder. We (the moders) are hoping that this will change in next patch and that each individual race will have its own strategies file.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I understand that the formation and strategy of the fleet will have an impact, but how do you evaluate (or guess) what the computer will do based on your design ?

For example, I read that if your fleet is using maximum range and your ship have direct fire/missile weapons, the fleet won't take advantage of its long range with missiles, it will move in to get within range of its direct fire. How am I supposed to know this ? What file dictactes this behavior ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This specific behavior is hard coded. It is defined by its movement strategy and we can't change them, just select them in DefaultStrategies.txt file.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is interesting because I recently was testing various design of ships with different weapons. The most successfull design had missiles weapons only and maximum range strategy. The moment you would add a direct fire, it wouldn't perform as good. I guess I know why now. But without this thread, I couldn't have guessed why ?

I'm tired of all this guessing...

thecyclemania<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We all learn by trial and error method. It is not easy, but it is the only way to go for now.

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

God Emporer-

The threads should be within the Last month. Do a "search" (upper right hand corner of page) and select this forum, within the Last month, with search terms of "ship" "design" and "ratio" - that should bring up some message threads with some good info.

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

What settings can u use to make more use of boarding ships? The attack ships seem to destroy everything before they get involved, and boarding ships tend to stay away until shields are down (unless you put a weapon like a shield depleter on board). If default fleet strategy is set for 'capture enemy ships', the whole fleet flees into a corner and fires back at attackers until someone loses their shields. Then a boarding ship will pounce. I was looking for a more direct assault where the boarders stay close to the action and capture ships with shields down before they are destroyed.

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

The best way I have found to make this work is put weapons and heavy shields or armor on your boarding ships and let them fight with the rest. Another way used fairly often is have all larger warships carry boarding parties. That way your ships don't run to the corner and let the opponents ship die before they can get to the battle.

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa_Gamer:
I also found that to make boarding ships work for the AI, you must reverse the current "movement types" so that board enemy ship is second. This way, they will attack (like you said) until the shields are down, then board. If you arm it with shield depleters, playtesting has revealed that it works rather nicely. Now if only the new patch will allow the AI to add these ships to their fleets http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo! Now change the Borg to research ship capture and add boarding ships to their construction queue. Lots of them. You will be assimilated!!! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif I wonder if they will be smart enough to analyze anything they capture when it has unknown techs...

Re: Space Combat - Observations and Questions (Aaron/Richard take note)
 

I also found that to make boarding ships work for the AI, you must reverse the current "movement types" so that board enemy ship is second. This way, they will attack (like you said) until the shields are down, then board. If you arm it with shield depleters, playtesting has revealed that it works rather nicely. Now if only the new patch will allow the AI to add these ships to their fleets http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif