second class super combattants
 

From the spells descriptions, it seems that these creatures are not limited in number:

Golem
Harvester of Sorrow
Fallen Angel
Vampire Lord

Some can perform rather well in melee fight. Any vets care to discuss if they see potential abuse? The Golem for example has full slots, and his quite healty. Astral nations with gems (Pythium, Arco) could try to recruit several and equip them.

My proposal would not be to tweak them down (because when not used as SC, they would perform even less efficiently), but renforce the mechanisms which lead to the demise of a strong isolated unit versus a hord of weaker units. This could fix some of the problem with combatting pretender too. Some quick examples:

- bypassing defence always incur one hit, even if prot is not passed.
- being attacked has a random chance of increasing your fatigue by one.

That would tone down the whole 'I start with a combat pretender and take the world with him' issue too.

Re: second class super combattants
 

That might severely disadvantage nations that rely on small numbers of big, costly units. Jotunheim (Niefelheim especially) and Ulm come to mind.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. The first thing I'll check when I receive the full Version is the Pythium/Golem Cult combo. That is, if Communion counts wrt Magic Duel in Doms II (didn't check yet). If it does, a Golem with a matrix and a horde of Communicants could be a real Juggernaut. And if the spell AI hasn't still neglects Magic Duel (it did in Doms 1), for the Golem to remain duel-safe, the Commies have only to survive for 5 battle rounds. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: second class super combattants
 

Supercombattants are a big problem in Dominions I. and will be in Doms II. Supercombattants are killing the strategic part of the game.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. So you've noticed this, have you? I doubt it. Most of these are outside the demo limitations. Valid complaints are one thing, and speculation can be useful, but trolling, spamming, and making false statements (like that you've actually seen SC's hurting Doms II) are not appreciated.

-Cherry

[ November 02, 2003, 08:40: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

>Golem

Vulnerable to magic duel, so not too much of an issue.


>Harvester of Sorrow

We are going to see a lot of this bad boy.


>Fallen Angel
>Vampire Lord

Not quite as bad due to low hit points.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">true, but :
- there is situations where you dont risk to bump into the astral king (like fighting a non native astral nations).
- you dont have to fear a countergateway, as you now need a target lab to jump.

Quote:

>Harvester of Sorrow We are going to see a lot of this bad boy. >Fallen Angel >Vampire Lord Not quite as bad due to low hit points.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">vampire lord are immortals and 0 fatigue , IIRC. Can be useful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: second class super combattants
 

>- there is situations where you dont risk to bump into the astral king (like fighting a non native astral nations).

The golem only has astral 2, so any mage with a touch of astral is a potential threat. It doesn't take the astral king.

They are tough if you spend some time working on them. But you always have to keep the astral vulnerabilty in mind.

I'd rather save my astrals for angelic hosts. They can wreck the blood SC's sometimes.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. So you've noticed this, have you? I doubt it. Most of these are outside the demo limitations. Valid complaints are one thing, and speculation can be useful, but trolling, spamming, and making false statements (like that you've actually seen SC's hurting Doms II) are not appreciated.

-Cherry </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey Cherry, I think he was talking about the abusable PRETENDER SCs! So you say that is it a good tactic to make a cheap pretender SC and massacre all indies and AIs without a problem?
This is a cheap abuse IMHO, and I agree with Stavros.
I am not a vet, but I've had this experience with the Dominions II. demo.

IF you will be able to make SCs later on, like golem, that is all cool, but this early game pretender SC abuse SUCKS.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">never dared to summon one in multiplay, I find the archangel very fragile. Sure, with some luck, an ice devil can find itself alone against the 6 angels and archangel, but I think I'm gambling too much if I count on this (and anyway with his defence, the angels wont touch him).

If not alone, the ID will have probabilities for him : he will kill your troops while your angelic host decide to attack something else.

Do you have some tricks on how to make good usage of them?

oh wait, this is where the attack big monsters can be handy to target better an ID. Still I'm sure it will be easy to fool the targetting system : put a big dark vine on hold, with a circle of good mundane units, and wait for the angels to fall into the trap.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Harvester of Sorrow is fine as long as they don't have more slots. In dom 1, they have only the head, two-hands and two miscs. Their protection are low and thus they are in general manageable.

Vampire Lord might be dangerous with a Snake Poison Bladder, a Vine Shield and an heavy armor. But thier low hitpoint make them not too much different any undead generals. With their ability to generate Vampire, you'd rather want them staying home anyway.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe so, but he posted in a thread about late-game summonable SCs, in which pretenders were never mentioned. And he never mentioned pretenders. What makes you think that's what he was talking about?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's fine, but that's not what the thread was about. Perhaps your post should have been more clear? Your original post did not in any way mention pretenders, and from the location, the implication was that you, personally, found that "second-class summonable supercombattants" were destroying the strategic portion of Dominions 2.

Anyway, I'm not going to pollute the thread anymore with a pointless argument. But keep in mind there's a difference between gratuitous humor and gratuitous criticism. If you're going to criticize, at least explain what you're criticizing, and then post it somewhere relevant - this thread is NOT about pretenders.

-Cherry

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">sneaky and immortal though. So either used in raid into enemy territory, or as cheap kamikaze combattants if you are defending your home.

Nothing unbalanced anyway.

Re: second class super combattants
 

Have any of you used werewolves as SC's? The ones you get from call of the wild. Since they start with super-human stats, natural protection, regeneration, an extra attack, size 3, and stealthy, I always tried to use them as a chassis... I think the HP are just too low, though, since it never worked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've never tried but they don't look promising.

You can easily put items on one to make him a capable combatant or good assasain. But you'll need some pretty expensive ones to make him qualified as "super" one. You gems are better spent on a spectral mage, or a even sleeper http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I used them as good assassins, with a black heart and a copper armor (I was fighting Caelum). It worked fairly well, and forced the player to bodyguard many of his mages.

And dont forget : you can loose 3 in a row, when you draw the jackpot, it win big time (the jackpot being a mage scripted for spells which are not useful in assassination attempts, and have items and gems for big battle spells).

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Pocus' proposal is a very good one.

In general, it would help a lot if super-combattants needed some friends around to keep them from getting overwhelmed.

Such an added mechanic could also help to improve the usefulness of cheaper units.

Charging a little fatigue for a defense seems like a good one.

I wouldn't always inflict a point of damage for every hit, but some tweak to the chance of taking some damage even with high PROT would help.

It would also make sense if defense skill was reduced by the number of incoming attacks per turn - say a cumulative -2 to defense for each attack after the first.

PvK

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is allready a cumulative -1 def per additional attack. Perhaps something more could be added.

[ November 02, 2003, 23:43: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is allready a cumulative -1 def per additional attack. Perhaps something more could be added. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Without a critical strike rule or stun (ie fatigue) damage for attacks that don't get through armor (both suggestions from the Heavy vs. Light thread), this won't help damage an invulnerable supercombatant (although it will help damage one that "only" has 30 def and mediocre protection).

Fatigue obviously would add to the chance of a free AP hit (which has a much better chance of causing damage against 30 prot).

Actually, some of the heavy vs. light issues are the same problems that any unit has vs. supercombatants. So one change could affect both places.

I'd like to see what happened if half of all damage that was blocked by armor was applied as stun damage (in addition to the hp damage if any). I'd expect to see supercombatants going down much faster if they don't have some decent troops around them, and heavy units in general being somewhat less dominant (although they would probably still beat light troops in a straight-up fight, they might take more casualties).

I.e.
DamageRoll = attacker.Strength + weapon.Damage + OpenEndedDice(2);
ProtectionRoll = defender.Protection + OpenEndedDice(2);
HealthDamage = max(0,DamageRoll - ProtectionRoll);
StunDamage = min(DamageRoll, ProtectionRoll) / 2;

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. So you've noticed this, have you? I doubt it. Most of these are outside the demo limitations. Valid complaints are one thing, and speculation can be useful, but trolling, spamming, and making false statements (like that you've actually seen SC's hurting Doms II) are not appreciated.

-Cherry </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pardon me but WTF? Are you calling me a Troll?
YOU? 8 out of 10 of your comments are full with trollish content, and you are calling me or anyone a troll? Hah! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
Most of your Posts are like 'I am trying to be funny and posting something not so funny and not very constructive stuff.'
Very funny.

Yes I CAN SEE THIS from the demo, since I have killed independents of str 9 with a pretender SC, also I have murderized most of the Impossible AIs in the early game with the pretender SC. I had this experience, I didnt made that post out of my ***.

So who is trolling here?

Sorry for the offensive post, but this post by Saber Cherry was ridicolous. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ November 02, 2003, 12:40: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

There's also the possiblity of cumulative armor damage. As in... every hit that lands, regardless of whether it penetrates, has a chance of reducing the opponent's protection by 1. This should be proportional to the strength of the damage roll (str+weapon+2d6). So neither a damage roll of 10 nor a damage roll of 20 would damage a unit with a protection roll of 22, but the damage roll of 20 would be twice as likely to degrade the victim's armor. An attack would probably have (damage roll)% of damaging the armor by 1 point.

The protection reduction would stay for the length of the turn (but be repaired each month). So heavy infantry peppered with slings would take no damage at first, but after 10 rounds of being hit by 5 rocks per person per round, their armor would be badly degraded, and they'd start taking HP damage. Entropy should eventually cause the demise of any highly armored supercombatant=)

Well, that's just a little suggestion I have.

Re: second class super combattants
 

Chris: Oh, I agree. I mentioned the original leaky armor suggestion, but I prefer your Version. I just didn't exactly like the specific mechanic of the minimum 1-point damage per hit, since it would penalize mortal fighters more than giants and seemed to certain and not quite "right". I prefer the small chance of a critical hit, either by small chances of armor-piercing or armor-negating, and/or the open-ended damage you just posted.

For the already -1 per subsequent attack, maybe just tweak it to -2 or even -3 (though unable to reduce below the effect of armor-only). Because the problem is for folks who get up to 30 or so, and become able to parry even 5 or 6 guys easily.

PvK

[ November 03, 2003, 02:03: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

I think that any changes in this direction should be made slowly.

As stated by Chris Byler - "Actually, some of the heavy vs. light issues are the same problems that any unit has vs. supercombatants. So one change could affect both places."

In addition to the cumulative -1 def per additional attack I would like to see an increase in the defenders fatigue by one for every hit that bypasses Defense but not Protection.

And if that change shows to be too little add 1 fatigue per attack made on a unit. That WILL have an effect.

Sammual

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this would penalize Jotun giants and similar units a lot. They already have problems when they are ganged up on, and if they are going to lose 1 prot for each attack made on them for the duration of the battle, it just seems too much. The whole point of armoured units is that they can withstand punishment. For every supercombatant, there are dozens of regular units that would be stricken by the changes made. So in an attempt to remove a threat from a single unit, you could easily sink the whole system altogether.


General comment (not specifically related to Saber's post):
If you go for the kill, killing is what you're going to get. I don't see why this is made into such a big problem. If you want to rush everybody and kill everything in sight in the first few turns, you are going to succeed if you do it right. So why the complaints when this actually happens? If you weren't doing it on purpose, it wouldn't have happened in the first place. Why is the game to blame for this then?

[ November 03, 2003, 03:12: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True. Perhaps size or HP could be factored in as well. A big Jotun armor should not be damaged as by a sling shot much relative to a tiny Hoburg armor, since there is so much more surface area.

But to clarify, it was not -1prot per hit, just a small chance of -1prot per hit. The chance could be adjusted until it was not much of a factor for most units, but if an SC tried to wade solo through 1000 pikemen, eventually his armor would get trashed during the battle.

-Cherry

Re: second class super combattants
 

I have to admit to being a bit lost regarding some of the early game SC concerns due to lack of details.

I've experimented with a Niefelheim SC Bless race (see Niefelheimn thread) with the Earth mother Earth 9, nature 9 and my experiances don't fit the picture being painted. My blessed, sacred Niefel Giants die with great ease fighting any troops capable of dealing out alot of damage. Remember they have prot +4, berserk 3, regeneration and reinvigoration - yet they get slaughtered by Knights! The Earth Mother is very vunerable without magic items - slowing down her usage and making her researching ability tempting.

Don't get me wrong this race is very nasty, perhaps broken, but then I'm hoping to find I can do some pretty over the top things with Heart Companions and Sacred Serpents . . . so I'm not sure that SC is the central issue.

Have I been really unlucky or are people somewhat inflating their stories of successes with super combatents? Do people go back to copied files to avoid the disasters I encounter when I'm too aggressive with SC's?

I would like to here detailed accounts of games in which people played with no backed up turns and to hear of the things that went wrong as well as those that go right. I worry at the thought that the game balence might be altered by people saying "I wasted the AI using the SC abuse isn't it pathetic?" I require more detail before I find this convincing and I think the problems with the AI have more to do with the light/heavy issues and the desire to not have the AI "cheat" - I wish they would at least pick on me playing impossible.

I'm no idiot and I find it easy enough to lose super combatents - always have. Even ID's with a heap of magic items which took a pile of gems, heaps of searching . . . and in Dom I I lost my first 2 (PBEM) ones against 30 Tritons! Go figure - nothing anybody said prepared me for that one but the heat of my dominion (Abysia) in the seas was enough to overwhelm all that investment.

So please Johan don't go making changes because people are making complaints lacking detailed backing. I certainly don't know enough to make definitive statements at this point and I doubt anyone who wasn't invovled in the development is in a different position. As such views of people responding to the demo should not be given too much weight - myself included http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Cheers

Keir

Re: second class super combattants
 

I'm typically arguing for Super Combatants to be toned down a bit, but it seems that much of this thread's solutions are overboard -- especially since the game hasn't even shipped yet.

In any event, it would make sense to add changes incrementally. IMHO changing the cumulative defense penalty from -1 to -2 per blow may well be enough to shift the balance.

I think the automatic damage per hit is a bad idea -- there's enough chance of that sort of thing with the openended roles, not to mention armor piercing/negating attacks.

I also think giving extra fatigue is a bad idea, and will make super combatants pointless. However, it might be a good idea to make the major contenders all have encumberance > 0, so they aren't completely immune to fatigue damage.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Still DO NOT call anyone a troll, since you are one of them. You are posting too much trollish things (Saber C. is trying to be funny in 8/10 Posts, and those are totally useless Posts}, so you should be quiet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Anyways no hard feelings, I WAS talking about pretender SCs, but late game SCs COULD be a problem, since a few SCs killing whole armies makes no sense to me you know...that is why I've posted that they are killing the strategic part of the game, but this won't be a problem, if the mod tools will be good enough.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed. That would make all low def/low hp (eg, Ulm Guardians) useless.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My Niefel Giants with Water 9 / Nature 9 Blessings go down alot as well. Worse I have the hardest time keeping my Pretender and my Prophet from going blind.

I am not saying that they are not effective because they are. I just lose them almost as fast as I make them. I trade them for new provences and winning battles.

Sammual

Re: second class super combattants
 

If SC pretenders are as powerful as is claimed, could somebody give an example of a setup for their SC pretender? I can't seem to get one that can beat indys safely and reliably on any setting higher than 3.

Re: second class super combattants
 

when we are speaking of super combattant pretenders, we are not speaking of naked pretenders you know. A single medallion of luck can be the difference between life and death.

Re: second class super combattants
 

>If SC pretenders are as powerful as is claimed, could somebody give an example of a setup for their SC pretender? I can't seem to get one that can beat indys safely and reliably on any setting higher than 3.

I offered this advice a few days ago, but it gets buried fast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For a simple way to learn try;

A Manticore
astral - 6
earth - 1

Research alteration - 3, enchantment - 3

Place the Manticore in the rear.
Orders to cast: Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Ironskin, Personal Luck, Astral Weapon.
Then attack rearmost.

Send it in alone, you don't want to rout when your army loses a morale check.

Get it rings that protect versus elements if you are attacking a cold or heat nation. Get a ring of tamed lightning if attacking an air nation.

This simple configuration will cut through 95% of conventional armies like a hot knife through butter. Use it to gobble up provinces and abuse the computer AI.

It's not invincible. But will handle a whole lot of trouble.

This will put you on the path towards understanding the potency of super combatants.

Re: second class super combattants
 

I decided to quickly throw together such a pretender with the magic levels and just run him around blindly seeing how many str 5 independent provinces he could capture. I think I got maybe 10 before he died.
The problem with that particular setup as with most SC I've made is the fatigue. Some spell that targets a unit and makes a chest wound would be really effective against pretenders without enc 0.
My manticore picked up a chest wound and that took him out. Still, I think I see that the key elements of the design are from the astral magic.
(Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Personal Luck)
This same astral magic leaves him somewhat exposed to mind duels.
Also attack rearmost, in my experience, is probably inferior to attack archers if you suspect your opponent has archers. Attacking the rear of the enemy melee troops isn't usually as good as hitting the archers who might very well be near the mages.

But I'm not an expert so feel free to point out where I'm wrong.

[ November 03, 2003, 20:40: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

just tried a Natajara with air and water magic. At turn 5 she got 4 enchanted swords.
Starting spells : quickness, then air shield & mist form on second round.
Gave her a juicy 28 def, with air shield to protect her from missiles, and mist form if a very very lucky blow bypass the defence.

Nothing else, but a ring of regen, a medallion of luck (or a ring of reinvigoration), and a nice little armor would have been cool.

I had big fun with her. A dozen indeps provinces, then a Tien Chi army of 70 units were trashed without problems.
and this is far from being optimized.

my scales were restless worhshipers, to help spread the dominions (and my Nata hit points...), chaos 1, luck 3, growth 2, dominions 7, fortress (so no loosy empire you see).

SC pretenders are powerful, and even more in doms II (less gold to coutner them with mages eg). Shall we make house rules in multiplay so that some players dont ruins the fun of others? I dont think so, as it would be a pity to have a game just released which cant be balanced from the start. This is why I advocate too that something must be done by the devs.

[ November 03, 2003, 20:55: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

10 provinces for the manticore? That was unlucky. At indy 5 it can normally clean the map as long as you avoid lizard shamen (curse). The only other things that will stop it (from indys) is lucky hits causing afflictions or lucky spell casts that beat the magic check.

Astral magic is great but air and earth also have great spells for combatants. Don't underestimate invulnerability, mist form & mirror image. Water is great for quickness and breath of winter. Fire provides fire shield.

There are lots of interesting ways to go about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 03, 2003, 20:53: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: second class super combattants
 

Well my manticore wasnt too lucky then. I think it got 2 battle afflictions in that time, the first on the second fight.
Also in my attempts to use a dom2 Moloch as a powerful combatant, I noticed the Moloch routs almost immediately.
I don't know if this is a bug but I suspect the imps rout and take the Moloch with them. Although I think I remember seeing the Moloch run before the imps at one point.

The Nagas actually look like good SC bases to me. No armor/boots but the capability to get a large variety of magic. Of course spell fatigue becomes a problem when you try to cast eveything on yourself.
I'm just trying to figure out what all the concern about super pretenders is...it still seems as long as the enemy keeps from routing for a little while the pretender gets enough spell and attack fatigue to go over 100 and then dies almost immediately.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My recent favorite is Ulm with Prince of Death. No extra magic is required but you might want to raise his death to around 6 with your leftover points from scales.

Go for Construction 2 and then forge your PoD the Boots of Behemoth, Black Steel Full Plate, Black Steel Helmet and the Lead Shield. His protection would be above 30 and basically untouchable. As an undead, he won't even get fatique from melee. So, he can trample several units per turn continuously, while keep scaring them away with his >fear+15 aura!

But to be safe, put him at the back and use the command queue "Hold", "Hold", "Attack Raremost". He can sweep most indies all by himself. He's still expensive, so use them with a certain caution. Probably one of the cheapest SCs you can get.

Some other alternatives are to use dragons. Also put them at the back and use the same command queue as above. They aren't as tough but cheap enough. All the Dragons have additional spells to help - Green has Personal Regeneration; Red has Fire Shield; Blue has Quickness and Breath of Winter.

The possibiities are limitless.

BTW, welcome to the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Moloch is not as good as he used to be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . If a SC attack with any troops, when all the troops rout, he routs. So, it's better to send him attack alone - a risk you have to take. In my few test, if the imps rout, he didn't (and he shouldn't or it'll be a bug making him a lousy pretender). But I haven't tested very thoroughly.

Nagas, in theory could be versatile mages but they were never popular in Dom 1. It's probably because they're too expensive. Not sure whether it will change when people figure out new possibilities with them in Dom 2.

Fatique is always an issue for super-combatants. One their fatique is over 100, they're unconscious. I don't know the exact mechanics, but you'll be hit automatically and other things. You need to have revigoration items or spells (Summon Earth Power, Power of Gaia, etc) for them. Or use creatures with 0 encumbance - plenty around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's probably why he suggested Astral 5. It will take a while for an Astral 5 to lose a magic duel.

Something with high MR and a magic weapon (preferably armor piercing or negating) would probably do better.

Is there a non-personal Version of Astral Weapon?

One thing that I think would help fight supercombatants (and seasonals and elementals if they are still a problem) would be a variety of weapon enchanting spells that affect a squad of units. I think there is already a Weapons of Sharpness (weapons become AP and magic) but there should also be:
Flaming Weapons (like the fire 9 blessing)
Frozen Weapons (similar to flaming, but the extra damage is cold instead of heat)
Shock Weapons (adds 3-4 armor negating lightning damage)
Poisoned Weapons (adds normal poison)
Astral Weapons (significantly more expensive and requires higher magic levels than the above; makes affected weapons armor negating).
and even
Deadly Weapons (adds Decay effect like Bane Blades - this should maybe cost even more than Astral Weapons).

A squad of elite troops (wardens, emerald guards, vanir, etc) with one of these could hurt some supercombatants. Also, all of these enchantments would cause the affected weapons to become magic (and thus ignore etherealness) - even if the target is immune to the extra effect (elements, poison, Decay). Etherealness is one of the biggest protections supercombatants have against ordinary troops - a flat 75% miss chance that stacks with all other defenses.

The earth Version should be the cheapest and lowest research, so earth still has an advantage in this area (in addition to the combo with Strength of Giants).

As for things that already exist in Dom II...

The blood magic item Flesh Eater always causes a chest wound to anything it hits. It only costs 5 blood slaves and requires blood 1, so any nation that can get random picks can get some.

It might be Construction 6 though, I don't remember. Also, I don't know if it has to do nonzero damage to cause a chest wound, or if it just has to hit.


On the other hand, I think if you are having problems with fatigue on your SC they are not all that super. Serious supercombatants (if they are not naturally immune to fatigue) should have enough reinvigoration (either directly or through life drain) to keep their fatigue down. Unless they are being repeatedly mind bLasted of course.

Re: second class super combattants
 

I'm not actually new to Dominions, I'm just new to SC's. Haven't really tried them before. So the key features of a SC would be in order of importance:
*Fatigue: Be undead or have summon earth power/nature reinvig items. Or actually a shroud and earth magic for the bless.
*Defense: Either armor or ironskin to raise prot., and then either a high defense somehow or luck/etheral, possibly from items. Regeneration is nice too to stop afflictions. Astral shield decent too.
*Damage: Trample, fire shield, snake bladder stick, maybe area damage spells if reinvigoration and magic are high enough.
*Magic resist: Spell or item to raise MR. Items for elemental protections as needed.

Missing anything?

And I did forget about the Flesh Eater...but it seems a bit risky running up to close range to cause the chest wound. And maybe my Moloch is just broken but after a fight or 2 he starts routing before the enemy even gets near, even in friendly dominion.
Also it seems etheral/luck might be a bit powerful in general. Given even attack/defense you only hit a etheral/luck unit 1/16 of the time, which seems a bit excessive.

Re: second class super combattants
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not just if the troops rout. If they take damage or are killed the leader will rout as well. I had a prince of death rout on turn two of the battle because the independent archers killed two of his longdead bodyguards.