Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

What about do not allow the Pretenders to leave their home province?
That would be the best. Why?

1. Supercombattant Pretenders can be abused easily.
2. The AI won't make stupid things, like moving with his pretender from province to province ALONE. The AI is always loosing his pretender very fast. I don't understand that what is the AI is doing with his pretender anyways...IT is always moving it..

So this way both problems would be solved.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

super combatting pretenders are only half (or a third, YMMV) of the problem. Your forget the numerous SC still available.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But it IS a problem, a big problem in fact. These pretender SCs are too cheap in early game.
Also you can abuse the AI with it.

[ November 02, 2003, 09:10: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

>These pretender SCs are too cheap in early game.

I know.

>Also you can abuse the AI with it.

Not just the AI, other players as well.

I would love to see the computer AI fielding super combatants when on the impossible level. That would make players lives a bit tougher. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

>Anyways I've made a topic about this, reply there if you want.

-Ok I'm here-

I like the idea of having mages/spells that would help repel super combatants.

For example, I never use my combatants versus a lizard province. They have lizard shaman that almost always "curse" my combatants.

This is perfect. If there were a few more ways that mages could potentially hurt a SC, players could use these spells for defense, plus the computer could scatter a few mages around in indy provinces to deter using SC to steam roll at the game start.

That way we can have the strategy of SC's, but also counters for it. If we force pretenders to stay at home or remove the SC abilities, it weakens the game by removing options. I like adding options rather than losing.

[ November 02, 2003, 09:28: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But it IS a problem, a big problem in fact. These pretender SCs are too cheap in early game.
Also you can abuse the AI with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with this.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">..but I agree with this too.


So what can we do??????? The AI cannot defend himself against these early pretender SCs...
Damn lot of things are screwed....the strat. AI, and now this...I am so pissed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ November 02, 2003, 11:55: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

[quote]Originally posted by MStavros:

Quote:

Originally posted by apoger: This is perfect. If there were a few more ways that mages could potentially hurt a SC, players could use these spells for defense

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They exist, It's just that you haven't found them yet.

Soul slay has seen its range increased. Paralyze is deadly now.
Try the new mind bLast, or those Mictlan spiders with their webbing & death attacks.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You kill them. Been there, done that in Dom I multiple times.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The spell AI is actually pretty good. I had a couple of Behemonths & a commander with 2 lifelong contracts recently stoned & slowly hacked to pieces by the AI. Did you know that the contract doesn't work if the bearer cannot move?

Maybe you should try playing vs different AI nations that the ones you have faced until now.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wendigo, the spell AI is good, but the strategic AI is very weak, thus you can massacre whole AI armies with your pretender SC in the early game, and that is very unbalanced.

[ November 02, 2003, 13:26: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

I don't expect the AI to be able to handle a supercombattant, especially in the very early game. But I don't know any AI able to withstand an early rush well either. (Or please name one AI able to handle a very early rush, either in a RTS or a TBS, without cheating) It sounds even like an exploit for me, going in for the kill and wondering why the AI fell that easily.

However, I am not saying anything about what it is like in MP, for a very good reason: I simply don't have enough experience with Dominions in MP so.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Locking a pretender in his castle makes it susceptable to other tactics although they would at least be later-game tactics.

If the AI has a combatant pretender then he should use it. Thats its purpose and its not disastrous to lose it in combat. As far as the moving it around I think what happens is that the pretender leaves home early with an army but is quickly the only survivor left. What seems to be lacking is not that the pretender shouldnt leave home but that it should recognize when to get reinforcements.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fine. Having a good spell AI is important.

Quote:

but the strategic AI is very weak, thus you can massacre whole AI armies with your pretender SC in the early game, and that is very unbalanced.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A good strategic AI is extremely difficult to implement, and it's NOT that important. If you're concerned about it, then I assume you're primarily an SP player, right? Then there's something illogical in your rant: if you think the AI can't handle your SC pretender, why do you play a SC at all? If you absolutely want to play an SC pretender, why don't you script the AI to make him more challenging? Eg, try adding the following line in your map files:

#scale_chaos 0 -3
#scale_lazy 0 -3
#scale_cold 0 -3
#scale_death 0 -3
#scale_unluck 0 -3
#scale_unmagic 0 -1
#dominionstr 0 10
#god 0 "Bog Mummy"
#xp 500
#mag_fire 10
#mag_air 10
#mag_water 10
#mag_earth 10
#mag_astral 10
#mag_death 10
#mag_nature 10
#mag_blood 10
#additem "Blood Thorn"
#additem "Charcoal Shield"
#additem "Starshine Skullcap"
#additem "Chain mail of Displacement"
#additem "Boots of Quickness"
#additem "Amulet of Antimagic"
#additem "Ring of Tamed Lightning"

That's what I used in Doms 1 for an Abysian AI when I wanted a challenge. Copy/paste and replace the '0' by the nation number if you want several tough AIs like this one. And if you find that's not enough, give a preset starting place to your AIs, and add things in that province. Eg, (assuming the Abysia AI starts in province 42):

#specstart 0 42
#setland 42
#population 100000
#knownfeature "Summoning Circle"
#knownfeature "The Mountain of Power"
#commander "Doom Horror"
#comname "Gog"
#xp 500
#mag_water 5
#mag_astral 15
#mag_death 10
#additem "Amulet of Antimagic"
#additem "Ring of Regeneration"
#commander "Doom Horror"
#comname "Magog"
#xp 500
#mag_water 5
#mag_astral 15
#mag_death 10
#additem "Amulet of Antimagic"
#additem "Ring of Regeneration"

There's nothing like a Doom Horror with fear +30, Quickness, Astral Shield and Soul Vortex to make your day! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

my very first game I used an earth mother. She Lasted about 3 battles until she found machaka and got blinded by a witch-doctor. Sigh.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually you've got some points.
The idea is good, but I doubt that it will happen.

I say, let IW to update the AI, there is a thread about the weaknesses of the strategic AI.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...;f=74;t=000191

If those things will be fixed, we are all good.

This is a minor thing. If you don't want to abuse the AI, don't build a pretender SC.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros: A good strategic AI is extremely difficult to implement, and it's NOT that important. If you're concerned about it, then I assume you're primarily an SP player, right? Then there's something illogical in your rant: if you think the AI can't handle your SC pretender, why do you play a SC at all? If you absolutely want to play an SC pretender, why don't you script the AI to make him more challenging? Eg, try adding the following line in your map files:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did much the same with my random generators. I tended to scatter the map with structures (castles, labs, temples), give AIs multiple starting sites, and give every province a randomly selected "commander" with bodyguards and random magic items. A very insane game.

Some of the most disastrous combinations of late-summons creatures or even pretenders showed up as the AIs prophets and extra units.

If I got to know the map too well I just re-ran the script and re-scattered everything.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually it is VERY important. You are saying this, because you are using Dominions II. for multiplayer. This was a selfish comment Nagot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ November 02, 2003, 17:16: Message edited by: Particle ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually it is VERY important.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, it's not - because there are easy and effective workarounds for single player. I provided two, but it seems you forgot to read them.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

my question concerning the strategic AI is this: If it is indeed as weak as ppl are claiming it is, then what happened between Dominions 1 and dominions 2? Granted the AI in Dom1 wasn't the "end all, be all" of AI, but it was decent enough, hell, it can still give me a very big run for my money....so, what happened between the 2 games?

Something had to have happened during the final stages of development, where the beta testers couldn't have caught it. If they were saying that the ai was great, but now, completely new guys are stomping it, then something had to happen towards the end, right?

It either has to be something to do with a late-stage development code change or data change somewhere....or, the ppl that are saying that they can wipe the virtual floor with the AI are either lying about it (NOTE: I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IS LYING, THIS IS JUST A POSSIBLE OPTION!!!!!!!!)....or, they are setting the game up strange or something along those lines....

Now, if it is indeed something went wrong in the late stages of development, then possibly IW will be able to find it easy enough....and fix it of course....

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

I think the people finding it easy are making rampaging supercombat pretenders. That's like being amazed the dom1 ai was easy when you played as caelum and air elementaled it to death.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was one lucky witchdoctor to get through a pretender's MR (unless it was in a seriously hostile dominion). If he was going to be that lucky, he should have been casting Seven Year Fever - or maybe Blindness is better against something with that many HP? Can diseased units still regenerate?

In any case, Curse has no defense and is always nasty; Blindness, Seven Year Fever and Soul Slay are all serious setbacks if they get through MR (and there is always some chance). Life drain won't help against any of those.

And of course the old Favorites, Black Bow of Botulf and Ethereal Crossbow; they now have a new friend, Vision's Foe. (RoF one per 3 rounds, but if it hits it is armor negating and automatically causes an eye loss with each hit - I saw no mention of an MR save. Air 1 Death 1 Cons 4 IIRC.) Eye Shields, Totem Shields, Knife of the Damned (I think this causes curse even if it fails to damage, but not sure), Heart Finder Sword and Shields of the Accursed still work well too. These are all non-artifacts that can be forged for reasonable cost.

Although Elemental Hauberk provides 100% resistance to fire, frost and lightning cheaply and easily (IW: if you're reading this, make that 50% resistance to fire, frost and lightning. No non-artifact should have 3 permanent immunities.), you still have to devote a separate item slot to poison or take your chances with Bog Beasts, Hydras, Poison Cloud, Snake Bladder Sticks and the new Serpent Kris. Regeneration and life drain will help offset poison - unless you're also cursed, in which case the poison is very likely to cause afflictions even if it doesn't kill you.

Anything can be seriously weakened by afflictions. Generally, things that aren't too badly bothered by blindness will be rendered useless by feeblemind and vice versa. The Void Lord might be an exception - feeblemind would be inconvenient but not necessarily incapacitating - but he can still be crippled, weakened, chest wounded, and possibly lose an arm.

Even if the enemy is Arco or can cast Gift of Health, afflicting a SC takes it out of action for a while. Curse and horror mark are gifts that keep on giving. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually it is VERY important.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, it's not - because there are easy and effective workarounds for single player. I provided two, but it seems you forgot to read them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nagot, you are wrong. The overall quality of the strategic AI is very important, regardless of your suggestion. Don't forget that the SP part is now very important, since we have a huge SP playerbase in Dominions II. Yes Doms I. was different, but things have been changed, thanks to Shrapnel.
IW want to make money, and at least half of the players who will buy Dominions II. will prefer SP. [I think that even lot more.]
So IW must do their best with the SP part as well, regardless of your opinion. You are living in the past. This is not Dominions I.

[ November 02, 2003, 22:36: Message edited by: -Storm- ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

You can use crossbows to take out SC's. Just give them order fire large monsters. In larger Groups with aim spell they can be deadly for them even in early stages.

But there are some items that really shine against them.


Piercer (crossbow):

Damage: 12 (armor negating)
Precision: 10
Attacks: 1 per 2 rounds
Range: 35
Ammo: 12
Costs: 5 earth and 5 air gems
2nd construction level and earth 1+air 1 mage.

You can get this one in demo. Just give it to some cheap nature mage (druid or cheaper will do), give him order to cast eagle eyes and fire large monsters.


Ethereal Crossbow I call this SC killer.

Damage: 999 (armor negating) - whatever it hits, it kills.
Precision: 5
Attacks: 1 per 2 rounds
Range: 35
Ammo: 12
Costs 5 astral gems!!!!!!!!!
Requires astral level 1 mage and level 6 in construction.

This thing is even cheaper to build then Piercer and is just plain deadly.
Method to use is similar to Piercer, but the effect is much better. You can also build eye that increases precision and give it to your commander for increased hit ratio.

Air shield gives 80% protection against missiles so its possible to hit SC even with air shield on. You just need to field a group of those sniper-commanders.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok than how can you stop the pretender SC abuse?
MAYBE the players can defend against it, but the AI is screwed.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah yes, I forgot the Piercer. Not great against regenerating SC though - you need several hits per round to overcome regeneration. Except combined with Curse, of course - then you will probably cause some afflictions even if you don't kill the SC immediately.

In Dom I, the Ethereal Crossbow allowed a MR save - the target was only killed if it failed. Most supercombatants have high MR. Was this actually changed in Dom II, or does it still have the MR save? If the latter, then Piercers combined with Curse would probably be more effective.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

There is also visions foe, an armor negating arbalest that causes eye loss. do not recall research level.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I hate Eye loss... I really do.
In all 5 games I have played with any sort of SC by turn 40 they never had any eyes left. What is it with Giants and missing eyes. *sigh*

Sammual - The Blind

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never take a Cyclops, for that reason. Seriously - he takes a couple provinces, and even staying in the back casting spells, the first time he runs into a couple indy archers, they do like 1 damage and blind him. Through 30 protection or whatever. Cyclopses are inaccurate enough even WITH an eye.

[ November 03, 2003, 06:43: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This looked pretty nasty, although you need air and death. I expect to see things like Valor shields
more frequently.

It also makes the Cyclops alot less attractive. ;-)

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually it is VERY important.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, it's not - because there are easy and effective workarounds for single player. I provided two, but it seems you forgot to read them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nagot, you are wrong. The overall quality of the strategic AI is very important, regardless of your suggestion. Don't forget that the SP part is now very important, since we have a huge SP playerbase in Dominions II. Yes Doms I. was different, but things have been changed, thanks to Shrapnel.
IW want to make money, and at least half of the players who will buy Dominions II. will prefer SP. [I think that even lot more.]
So IW must do their best with the SP part as well, regardless of your opinion. You are living in the past. This is not Dominions I. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes yes.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And you guys seem to live on a strange planet with no future. JO already said JK felt rather reluctant to do further work on the AI, and you keep on pestering him to answer to your AI worries. You obviously have no idea how difficult it is to implement a good strategic AI, so much so than improving the current one is almost guaranteed to be a waste of time and effort. So OK, keep on dreaming, it doesn't hurt anyone. I truly hope for you that eventually IW will prove me wrong, but I wouldn't bet a cent on it.

Quote:

This is not Dominions I.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, may I remind you that KO himself said Doms II is essentially Doms 1 (with a few tweaks and additions, obviously) plus a revamped interface. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Where did you read about this? I am kinda shocked by this statement.

This means that the hella lot of Posts / suggestions about 'how to improve the strategic AI' were totally pointless?
Are you kidding?
Also what is your point at all? I don't understad you. We all know that you are a multiplayer, and no one cares about this. No one was whining about that.

You are constantly flaming the people, who trying to make suggestions about the strategic AI. I think that at least 60% of the players would be lot happier with a better strategical AI. You know this is not a MP game only. Yes we are near this annoying topic once again.

I haven't seen a constructive post from you about the strategical AI, you are just babbling about the same thing over and over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

[ November 03, 2003, 11:42: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Woot!

Sammual

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The AI thread isnt pointless, if nothing else it has moved form: the AI sucks, it must be improved, to a list of specific complaints. The list is actually helpfull and much less irritating than the orginal the AI sucks Posts. Without promising anything making the AI favourably wieght sacred or armored troops when recruiting might be a candidate for an improvement, for example. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">johan many of us are trying to help to you guys, I have made that list after 15 games with the demo. All of those were played for 40 turns, and I've posted my experience.

Hopefully the AI scripter can make improvements in those things on the list. We don't need any promises, we won't demand anything..at least me.
I love this game, and I want to help to you to make it even lot better, via a lot better strategic AI.

better strategic AI -> better, more enjoyable SP -> happier players & fans.

I think this is all clear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

Yup, trollish Posts are gone (the ai sucks etc.), and very good suggestions can be found now in the AI thread.
Just check them out and try to solve the problems with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Where did you read about this? I am kinda shocked by this statement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually that was KO, not JO, and he wrote:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was in the "What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!" thread, page #5.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Simple: there are still many bugs and balance issues in the game that need to be solved, these affect both SP and MP play, and should be solved first. Improving the AI will certainly require more much time than the bug/balance fixes and will mainly benefit to the SP players. How is it so difficult to understand?

Quote:

You are constantly flaming the people, who trying to make suggestions about the strategic AI.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I apologize to anyone who got the impression I flamed him, as that wasn't my intent. BTW, I spent 30 minutes to locate the post by KO that I quoted above, so please return the favor and point the threads where I did flame these persons. I doubt you'll find any, bar this one, to support your "constantly" claim. Also note the order of events in this very thread that led to the present discussion:

Someone: it's so easy to abuse the AI with an SC pretender in SP, fix this asap.

Me: it's not that important, there are workarounds to this:
(1) if you don't want to abuse the AI, just don't abuse the AI - IOW, don't field a SC pretender.
(2) edit the map files to improve the AI starting position.
(Note: no flames)

Someone: Improving the AI is VERY important. Nagot you're selfish. Angry smileys.
(Note: no argument. First flame)

Me: but there are workarounds! Try them out.
(Note: still no flames from me)

Someone: Nagot you're wrong. AI is very important regardless of your suggestion. You're living in the past.
(Note: More flames)

Me: replying (with arguments) in the same sarcastic tone (past -> future), so flame for flame. But note I wrote "I truly hope IW will prove me wrong".

So, who's to blame for the flames?

Quote:

I think that at least 60% of the players would be lot happier with a better strategical AI.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I sure would. I'd love to see a really good AI. But again, I think there are higher priorities. I explained the why and the how.

Quote:

I haven't seen a constructive post from you about the strategical AI,

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're kidding, right? I explained how to script the map files to provide easy workarounds to a deficient AI, and these workarounds are available NOW! The AI doesn't equip his pretender? Script. He doesn't build havy troops? Script. He always pick a crappy dominion? Script. He doesn't build fortresses? Script. Has anyone ever given a more constructive contribution that that? Than something that works NOW, as opposed to an improved AI that we may probably not see in a foreseeable future? I doubt it.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

Hey Nagot, can't you stop plz?
IMHO improving the strategic AI. should be the #1. on the priority list. It is very important, and no I won't and can't script.
Scripts wont raise the quality of the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some AIs (at least some of them, I don't know for sure about Dominions) are mostly made of scripts, so they will definitively raise the quality of the AI. (If done right that is) However, you do need to know how to use them, which is another matter altogether. And Nagot can very well say what he thinks, especially as he explains why he things so and even gives ways to improve the situation in the current state. I, for one, won't ask you more Nagot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Not quite though. I do have a question for you: how would you write a script to make the AI build more heavy troops? I mean, what file would you tweak? I don't ask you to explain how you would write the script though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Or did I miss this part?

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

Alas to be fair, you can only script initial starting positions for the AI. Sure, it dont differs from 99% of our so called strategy games, where the AI is given numerical advantages, but thats all.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some AIs (at least some of them, I don't know for sure about Dominions) are mostly made of scripts, so they will definitively raise the quality of the AI. (If done right that is) However, you do need to know how to use them, which is another matter altogether. And Nagot can very well say what he thinks, especially as he explains why he things so and even gives ways to improve the situation in the current state. I, for one, won't ask you more Nagot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Not quite though. I do have a question for you: how would you write a script to make the AI build more heavy troops? I mean, what file would you tweak? I don't ask you to explain how you would write the script though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Or did I miss this part? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is ridicolous. Let the devs to upgrade the AI plz. Scripting map files won't help. The AI will be the same. Yes it will offer a bigger challange, but the core of the AI won't change.

also WHO CAN SCRIPT LIKE THAT? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

I dunno about the rest of you, but it seems to me that bugs and balance will be the first things addressed, mostly becasue they are easier to tackle from a codeing standpoint (or in the case of difficult bugs, more important to fix).

Something that is lost in this discussion is that in the process of fixing these bugs, and redoing some balance issues the AI may get a boost from no longer suffereing due to an erronious or poor initial design. That said, improving the AI (*not simply making difficult maps) should always be in the mind of the players and developers, and I'd guess that Illwinter is interested in continuing to improve the entire game, including the AI.

Besides, the fact remains that the majority of game time is going to be SP, I'd estimate it at 80%. And while its nice to say things like 'don't cheese the AI if you don't want to' what I really want is for the AI to be able to 'cheese' me.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup. Bug fixing is always on the top of the list. Balancing as well. In our case the strat. AI is very important, as you've said most of the games will be SP. That is why upgrading the AI is on the top of the list in Doms II.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

Where did you read I asked the devs not to care about the AI, or in Nagot post for that matter? There is quite a difference between saying, like Nagot said, "AI should not be the first concern for the devs" (or somethign along these liens), and saying "Don't touch the AI".

There may be another factor as well. Changing balance in drastic ways may very well alter the AI. Say you are tweaking the balance between light and heavy units. The AI will have to be changed accordingly. Say you are making magic more/less expensive, supercombattants less common, or something else. The AI will once again have to be modified, and perhaps even important changes.

I would believe these important balance changes will be settled, along with bug fixes among other problems, before the AI is completely tweaked. Still, some changes are currently going on for the AI, in particular fields. (The AI doesn't like to build castles, and Kristoffer asked for suggestions about this matter) But I would not expect the developer(s?) involved with the AI to make a much improved AI while handling all the other requests/bugs/balance concerns/add as needed in a short amount of time. (Except if Illwinter had managed to master the flow of time)

As for these scripts, I will let Nagot speak about this topic. (Apart from modifying the starting provinces, that is to say, the things lurking in the map file)

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Something like:
#commander "Commander of Ulm"
#units 50 "Guardian"

Repeat a few times, enough for their upkeep to eat most of the AI's initial income. With that you won't see the AI building many light troops for some turns.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never implied that map file scripting would solve all the AI's shortcomings. But it's available as we discuss, easy enough to do with minimal practice, and it can give the AI enough of a boost to become challenging to the best players. Obviously it won't change the AI's behavior - eg, its tendancy to build peltasts when it has the resources to build hoplites, or to build other castles than the ones you gave him in the map file.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Something like:
#commander "Commander of Ulm"
#units 50 "Guardian"

Repeat a few times, enough for their upkeep to eat most of the AI's initial income. With that you won't see the AI building many light troops for some turns. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"something like"....."for some turns".....yes this made lot of sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Gandalf had made a very challenging map. Yes you can script like that, it will be more fun to play, but it is nothing more just a preset startup. The AI is the same, I won't tell you one more time

Sure the devs will need lot of time to update everything, but hey, we can wait. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said anything else. Also keep in mind that, although there may be more SP players than MP ones, participating in an MP game is a huge commitment, while firing up an SP game at home is not. Assume there exists a rare, but game-breaking bug that happens only once out of 20 games, and it hits in the middle of a PBEM involving a dozen players - that will ruin several months of efforts by all of them. In SP you'll just mutter "<censored>", forget it and start a fresh game in the next minute.

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said anything else. Also keep in mind that, although there may be more SP players than MP ones, participating in an MP game is a huge commitment, while firing up an SP game at home is not. Assume there exists a rare, but game-breaking bug that happens only once out of 20 games, and it hits in the middle of a PBEM involving a dozen players - that will ruin several months of efforts by all of them. In SP you'll just mutter "<censored>", forget it and start a fresh game in the next minute. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What do game breaking bugs have to do with an SP v. MP discussion? Bugs are at the top of the 'fix me' list always, no matter their import to either side...

What improving an AI does is lengthen the lifetime of the game, if you can beat the AI too easilly its not going to be that interesting to try to beat the AI again using a different tact. If the AI can jump up on you, well then you'll stick at it longer. The standard (BS) reply to that is 'go play some MP' but it is BS because not everyone can, or cares to, play MP. Especially PBEM where a game takes months. An improved AI benefits everyone, other than the people who *never* play SP and *never* include AIs in their MP, and you'd have to do some work to convince me that those people even exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Lets agree though that no one said improving the AI was a bad thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, you pretty much said it all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

Bugs and balance should certainly be top priority, and balance may even help AI.
However...although I do play single player, including an AI in a MP game wouldn't be very fun. AI's and human players should not be mixed...it becomes a game of abusing the AI to get advantage.
No game as complex as dominions is going to have an AI with no weaknesses, and putting one in MP is just asking people to beat it up for its riches.
And if PBEM takes too long for you try a networked game. Mine's past turn 20 and it got set up Last week. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

KO has replied in the AI's thread yesterday:

"I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind.


Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc.

What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress?

I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as:
Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5
Add a couple of other conditions.

Just to make you think. Eventually it might result in something good."


The devs ARE wishing to upgrade the AI., and we MUST HELP TO THEM WITH IDEAS AND REPORTS. Stop TROLLING HERE Nagot Gick Fel! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ November 03, 2003, 12:10: Message edited by: Particle ]

Re: Supercombattant pretenders....what about...
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The AI thread isnt pointless, if nothing else it has moved form: the AI sucks, it must be improved, to a list of specific complaints. The list is actually helpfull and much less irritating than the orginal the AI sucks Posts. Without promising anything making the AI favourably wieght sacred or armored troops when recruiting might be a candidate for an improvement, for example.