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Niefelheim, bless and the outrageous
Sitting reading a printout of the bless effects some nasty idea's occurred to me. Playing with the race design confirmed my suspicians - you can do some outrageous things with the new blessing system.
Jotun Niefelheim theme. Earth Mother: Earth 9, Nature 9 - and they said it couldn't be done! Order/chaos 0, lazy 2, cold 3, death 3, luck 1, drain 3 dominion 8 Fortified city (the 50 admin one ?), 40 admin Castle might be better in some environment. The details could vary quite alot as this is my first test run. The plan is simple: build Niefel and bless them - they get reinvigorate 4, +4 prot, berserk 3, regenerate and some poison immunity. Even a Jotun Herse or Jarl will act as a super combatent against a weak independant. Lizards, Barbarians and Knights etc require care but the run of the mill hummies have no chance. Don't be misled though - the early supercombatents will die facing a decent group of high damage dealing creatures unless in numbers. This indicates that you don't need complicated counters to kill early game super combatents. While I have only done initial testing my assessment is that this is faster than anything I have come up with under Dom I. The key is that the bless effects provide the equivelent of magic items right from the start (and for those who can't sue magic items) without any research done or gems found and spent. Effects you can use right from the start have the potential to be very powerful and with alot of magic weaker the bless effects look some of the better things one can do for quite awhile. This is just a start as there seem to be a heap races with strong sacred troops in the Dom II. I worry that bless effects and high magic pretenders might be a bit nasty but I do really enjoy the possiblities they add to design. Cheers Keir ps. I seem to remember reading something about anchovy pizza's and I'm wondering where that bet is at now the demo's been around a bit? |
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Sure they migth be nasty, but you took quite "retarded" scales...
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Keir's point is that he thinks this setup is more than fast enough to make up for it's 30+% reduction in initial income; I imagine he's well aware his scales are weak. :-p
Keir, I'm curious what strength independents you used? Did you find that a single Jotun Herse was enough to take most independents? That would make for a pretty damn fast start... It would be sad if the only thing to make high magic Pretenders usefull were a super fast start. :-( |
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Son of Niefel: Nature 9, Water 9 Order/chaos 0, lazy 0, cold 3, growth/death 0, luck 0, drain 3 dominion 4 Bad quick-start. It takes until turn 4 to start on the rampage (The Commander you want as a prophet costs 500 Gold so you don't get him until turn 3 and it takes a turn to make him the prophet). Once you start you should be able to take almost a provence a turn for about 10 turns. The problem I have in the demo is my Pretender and my Prophet get a nice long list of battle afflections by turn 40 and the spell to remove them is not in the demo. The other problem I have is my Domain is too low. I have to put a temple in every other provence I take or my prophet has no hitpoints. Sammual |
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Water 9 is costly, and the Niefel Jarls are water mages so they already get the Quickness built in after Alteration 2 (a measly 60 points of research). Sure you lose the effect on the regular Niefel giants, but if you want to focus on Jarls, I think water is not the way to go. What about Monolith nature 9/astral 9 Order +3 Luck -3 Dominion 8 This leaves 6 x 40s' of points to spent on your castle and the reamaining scales. |
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I will try a immoble pretender next (I liked having 2 SC on turn 4 but I can live without one). Sammual |
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The 9 Nature 9 Earth is nice for Niefel Jotun, but probably too costly. If you stop at Earth 4, you save a lot of points so you can have an economy but still get the important regen/beserk combo (and a little reinvig too).
My fav so far: Jotun Niefel Great Mother Nature 9 Earth 4 Ord 3 Sloth -3 Cold 3 Growth 2 Magic -1 Luck 0 Dominion 5 40 Admin 80point castle The loss of the +4 armor and extra reinvog is sad, but after getting Beserk+3 in the cold their armor is already 20 (15 base, +1 per cold scale, + 3 beserk (of which 2 count)). The Herse are only 60 gold and can be blessed, so you want to make one of them a turn and try and get some good HoF specials on them. Skip the indie Lizards (curse), knights/calvary, large barbs, and those fishmen (cause of those nets), but everything else is pretty viable with just flanking 2 NGs and a couple of Herse, and a handful of Spearmen to soak up the inital charge. The cold effect of the NGs go a long way in preventing damage - enemies freeze and lose attack/defense, and seem to only attack every other round (confirm on that?). You can crank out a new army by turn 5, and build a temple with 40GP priests to get some temple makers going asap. I don't wait for a NJ leader - just take a Gode for holy +4, and you can always kill him off if you want an NJ prophet later. 500 GP is almost a new town/temple combo! And a new town means more blessed Herse. Clear provinces around your capitol to allow recruiting 2-4 NGs a turn (probably can't afford that many anyway, which is why I traded sloth 3 for growth). You can get decent economy, and then you can throw up castles quick and flood the world with Herse. You don't have cheap mages, but Skratti are only 250GP now and make great blood hunters and battle commanders. Gygja are ok researchers, and thanks to the random 2 sorcery picks you want to make lots of them to get the cool combos (the death/nature +3, or Astral +2 in particular). NJs I avoid since I don't want them going beserk, but since they have water 3 they are good for Winter Wolves and the Robe of the Sea (Ice Devils are Cold 3 Blood 3, so you can summon them with Construction 4 now with no pretender help) Mentors would probably be a good investment shortly too. Research Conjuration 2 quickly - Neifel Jotun gets great water gem income, and having a couple of ice drakes behind the cold immune NGs and you can rack up the kills to win quickly enough to even take out larger battles. Ice Demons would be nice later too - again cold attacks and the option for some flying commander killing. The luck is kind of risky - I still hate the flood in your capitol on turn #3 and you lose 1/4 of your population http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif But with Order +3, you should only rarely get events. (Sidenote: it would be nice if castles protected your population from these effects - they do have a safe haven to go to!) You can really get a good start with this, and have a decent late game too. Neifel starts off with the Illwinter spell too, so you can try that. And of course Ice Devils - as I mentioned elsewhere giving them a Shroud of the Battle Saint and they get the bless effects. The main reason I take the GM and not the Green Dragon is so the IDs get the +2 reinvig - it really will help in longer battles with them. The big bonus is the regeneration and poison res, and at 5 gems is too cheap (and you get +5 armor too). Taking a Dragon instead saves a lot of points and gives you a nice poison range attack early. Your blessed NGs/Herse resist 50% of poison, so would probably give a quicker start so that might be nicer. Either way. late game your pretender will want to cast Gift of Health (100+ HP NGs!), Gift of Nature's Bounty (doubles income, so you can really crank out the expensive Neifel troops) and awaken Tarrasques (lordy they are nasty!). Another nice combo: Pythium Serpent Cult Great Mother Earth 9 Nature 4 Order 3 Sloth -3 Cold 0 Growth 1 Luck 0 Magic -1 Dominion 4 50 Admin City Serpent Cult means you get Holy Hydras! The +4 Armor here is very nice, and the reinvig gravy. The Nature 4 gives Beserk +1, so after the first hit they won't rout. A Serpent Priest (their picture is too funny!) and a single Blessed Hydra can take out most 5th level indepents. The Hydra starts with 12 protection, and gets 16 after blessing, 17 after beserk, and regenerates 15 HP a turn. With the reinvig, it can take getting ganged up on without fatigue worries, and the poison effect will cause the enemy to rout all the faster. These Hydras also would be a prime candidate for Gift of Reason. An army is just a Serpent Priest and a single Hydra, and they just destroy most indies. Serpent Cult mages kind of suck, but they will get the +4 reinvig and quickness. Without Howl being a viable option (it costs 2 gems each summoning now), they can do minor spells like vine arrow, sleep, heal, etc. Their magic is pretty limited compared to Arch Theurgs, but oh well. Some armored Legion troops with flanking Serpent Cataphract (also blessed for the benefits, so they are pretty fierce) is a great army to build with unused resource points, for indies that can't be taken with Hydras. Magically, this race seems a little less impressive in the long run, but Nature is a lot more useful than Dom 1. Lamia Queens will be helpful to get to the other paths (sorcery anyway). I haven't seen the heroes yet - if you get Bart the Arch Theurg that would be very nice! I suppose heroes are dependent on themes, however, so probably not. Any other race suggestions? [ November 02, 2003, 19:32: Message edited by: geo981010 ] |
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For example, a pretender with 9 water can give you hydrae that regenerate, surrounded by poison cloud and have 1.5x9 (13.5) attack each turns. Your knights will also be holy and can have 4.5 (?) attacks each turn. All of these sound good on paper http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . But. Requiring so much magic on the pretender, and the expensive cost of a hydra, it might be very hard to do though. |
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In a nutshell:
Abysia-9 Earth-Reinvig and protection for Lava Warriors and your sacred mages Abysia-9 Air-75% Shock resistance and Air shield to compensate Lava Warrior's lack of shields. Abysia-9 Fire-I've seen Lava Warriors moving down Knights with +4 attack and extra 8 armor piercing damage... A theoretical one: Marignon-9 Blood-Build Flagellants. Bless them. Let the enemy kill them. Watch enemies to get cursed. [ November 02, 2003, 19:19: Message edited by: Nerfix ] |
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Seems that nature blessing is pretty much the best. Adding to so many stats and no rout is worth a defense penalty, and regen at 9 means high prot units like black templar just get angry when injured and immediately regenerate.
Of course when somebody hurts your arch theurg for 1 damage and he goes beserk you might regret the nature. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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The Life after death is not very good for normal troops - you just get soulless which aren't very useful.
But that is a big perk on mages - Pythium Arch Theurgs cost 380 to make, and one arrow and they die usually. But this way, they turn into soulless with all their magic intact(!). So you have to kill them twice to really lose them. I like them better as soulless - no longer have to pay income on them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I imagine a goal will be to get consistent ways to have the blessed mages converted to soulless to save on income - maybe the life leeching spells that target troops around you? |
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I took nature 9 and air 4 for Niefelheim. I thought that the giants could use an arrow shield due to their size. |
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I suspect I have understated my case somewhat as some people seem to have missed the point.
re retarded scales. Who cares? Death is not really a big deal when all you run are super combatents. Sloth is ok as you don't need that many resources to go crazy. There's actually alot of room to play with scales as I tried chaos 3 luck 3 and got a truly absurd start with a free 1000gp's on the second turn and lots of other useful freebies - although I didn't like getting free troops to upkeep until they have starved! As for the magic I doubt I would research anything other than construction for along time and there's no hurry with that - you start with powerful magic through the bless and everything you fight with can be blessed. Its not like there are any spells you could research early to compare to the bless or anything you could buy with gold for that matter - thats is why these style of races will work. You start with the power from turn 1 or 2 and thus the speed of your start makes up for the weakness of your scales irrelevent. If you have 20 provinces by turn 10 do you really think bad scales matter? Building a conquering army each turn after turn 5 or 6 is insanely fast. I've won in multi-player using death scale 3 before with a significantly slower race so I'm not just blowing smoke on this one. re Death 9 Earth 9 to expensive? Who cares about weakening dominion scales if you get pretty much everything you need at the beginning. I should have made it a bit clearer in the first post - I suspect this race is so powerful as to be broken for mutli-player. So the question of wether paying the points for the effects is worth it just doesn't occur to me - I wouldn't seriously consider doing without the +4 protection for this race. The only thing this race would really like it doesn't have is higher dominion. Re Jotun Herse as a super combatent. I would not say most independants can be taken by one Jasper - indie strength 5. You actually have to be very careful and I'm doubting the speculation I have read on early super combatents and the lack of counters to them. Anything with high damage (Lizard warriors, knights, Barbarians) will, and did in test, kill any of the early game super combatents in this race if the numbers are bad enough - I tried pushing the limits and even the Earth Mother bit the dust. However vs weak indies the Herse is pretty awesome and supporting the Niefel giants it makes all the difference as do the Jarls you use for blessings. The biggest problem with this race is actually getting enough blessers early so I turn my first Herse into a prophet. re other possibilities. I think there are a heap (everything from sacred Serpent Cataphracts to Heart Companions could go crazy) of other good potential races with high magic pretenders utilising bless. I really rate the water, earth, and nature bless abilites and I'm not writing the others off yet (except perhaps astral and air). One of the most important features is finding a pretender to get what you want cheap - Earth Mother is obviously useful but any pretender starting at lvl 3 can get to 9 for around 160pts which is no big deal. Van with +4 defence and 50% quickness - Valkrie with +4 defense and 50% quickness! I'm keen to get my copy of the full game. Through your preconceptions out the window - Dom II is not Dom I. Don't worry, be happy . . . Keir |
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At this point I'm struggling to say wether the new themes for races or the bless effects are the most interesting addition to design possibilities. To be honest I was critical of the lack of design possibilities with powerful/tight synergy in Dom I but Dom II, for me, is potentially even better than Stars! for race design possibilites. Thanks for that Geo, Don't worry, be happy . . . Keir |
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I'm suspecting that while magic may be weaker in Dom I than Dom II races will be stronger due to the increased synergy created by all the combinational effects generated by the new themes and the bless effects. Race design feels alot more like designing a Magic: The Gathering hand with Dom II what with all the crazy combinations and effects you can generate. Lets just go with the flow and hope we are in for a good ride. If I hear that Dominions has grown into a expansionist gaming corporation who has a chubby CEO with a goaty I'll start to worry but till then I figure the guys making the game are showing form worth favouring. Don't worry, be happy . . . Keir |
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Regarding Keir's Niefel Strategy:
We'll have to see how abusive the Earth 9/Nature 9 is. Outside of the cold, the base armor can fall from 18 (3 cold) to 12 (3 hot), and large encumberance gains and I think loss of Att/Def. So your supercombatants may literally melt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif - have to play around with that. I also suggested elsewhere that Bless effects be somehow modified by the dominion strength, and enemy dominion should reduce the effects. I suggested modifying magic skill level by 10% per candle, and subtracting for enemy dominion. That would definitely counter it - in one candle enemy dominion, you'd lose the two +9 bonuses! Regarding the 9 Death strategy: You may get afflictions and the soulless form is very easy to kill, though, so anyway to try and do upkeep free mage conVersions would be pretty risky. So saving on the income might be not very reliable, but getting two lives per mage would be a large perk and some of them would get converted to undead and then would be great free researchers. Plus your expensive non-holy summons could get the Shroud too, which should protect them from global spells too (they'd get killed by a seeking arrow, but would be revived as a Soulless right away). You also have the bonus of converting commanders to have all the item slots - Coutyls are prime candidates for this but in Dom1 was hard to do (the Ankh was the best way). Coutyls can then use the Astral Helm and the +Nature items, so this is really quite helpful. Plus, without the blessing effects, the Prince of Death with ~9 Death ~4 Earth was already an effective Super Combatant. Now with the bless bonuses (Life After Death and Reinvig), this is a very effective choice for holy mage nations. Abysia and Pythium rejoice! [ November 03, 2003, 17:05: Message edited by: geo981010 ] |
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I'm starting to wonder if the Niefelheim theme isn't the worst choice for Jotunheim. Consider this:
(1) For the same price you can pick 'Heart of Winter' which is very beneficial to your dominion. This is also true for 'Ceremonial Faith' (if you use cheap human priests preachers) and 'Restless Worshippers' (if you can stand a bit of turmoil). (2) For 25 points less you can pick the 'Utgard' them which gives you the cheap and dreaded Seithkona. (3) If you want to play with uber-bless effects, 3 Woodsmen cost the same as a Niefel Giant, get slightly worse stats (except prot which is much worse), but get 50% more combined hp. (4) The Niefel Jarl isn't a better mage than the Skratti or the Gygja (actually much worse cost-wise), and on the battlefield its best use seems to be the 'cast quickness/attack' routine. Sure he gets the chill aura and better stats than the Jotun Herse, but is it enough to justify the cost difference? 8 Herses cost 20 gp less, get you 3.5x more hp, 4x more attacks, equal or better protection, lesser morale (but it won't be an issue when blessed or berserked), lesser MR (but 8 times more MR checks to fail), lesser defense (but 8 times more targets to overcome). Considering all this, I'd be tempted to pick nature 4 (for the berserk effect) and, hum, what else? Water 9 would be nice, but there's always the possibility to give Boots of Quickness to your better Herses at some point, and the defense bonus (especially with berserk on top of it) won't help much wrt the ganging effect. Nature 9, great, but you can forge Rings of Regen easily, ditto with Wraith/Hell swords (these don't don't help to reduce afflictions, but they give health back faster than nature-9 regen or rings). Astral 9, OK, but you can forge Rings of AM even more easily. Fire, cool, but the Herses can dish a lot of damage already. Earth, damn, they already get 18+ protection, and won't even need reinvig if you equip them with Wraith/Hell swords (which you can forge easily). Blood, then? They already have gobs of strength. Death, maybe? Their soulless Version isn't impressive enough to warrant the cost, and the lesser fear aura isn't that great. That leaves Air - which, considering the Herses' susceptibility to crossbows and lightning, seems the most versatile way to go, as your national mages have no proficiency in air magic. What about: Dominion: Heart of Winter, strength 6 Virtue - Air 9/Nature 4 Cold +3 Leaves 123 points to tune the remaining to your liking. Or, if you plan to produce Hell Swords en masse (and therefore, don't need the nature 4): Dominion: Utgard, strength 6 Virtue - Air 9 Cold +3 Order +3 (the Utgard theme requires order +1 at least, so why not go the whole route) Leaves 120 points for extra goodies. At least perfectionnists will have the satisfaction of spending every available design point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Back to the Ice Age is also a themtatic race based on turning the world into a frozen wastleland where civilisation dies out before a new thawing comes and the cycle begins again. It the Earth Mother saying start again - enough of these uptty patriachies! I wanted to do this in Dom I but didn't have tools there are now. In terms of game play the idea is focused on cold based SC and mini SC's with a monster Earth mother somewhere nearby. So Niefelheim seems the logical approach as woodsmen don't look that promising (correct me if I'm wrong) and Niefel giant plus the commmander Version are really nice with bless. The Niefel giant commander is like being able to buy another pretender. Incidentily neither of the Niefel's look the strong to me without the powerful bless effects. If you are looking for a more balenced Jotun race then Niefelhiem is obviously not the place to start and the Norna's and Siethkona's are very important. What is going to be stronger? We can't answer that easily right now. We can work on getting the race tight - maximise the amount of elements which combine together to make themselves and whole more potent. Even weak looking features become powerful in the right context. Something I loved about M:TG deck design. Don't worry, be happy . . . Keir |
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I like the Son of Niefel for Jotunheim - early it him and his wolves make all the difference. What does quickness 50% do for blessed mages? With Jotun or Abyssia I like a very high dominion - like 10. Using 8 for the "Back to the Ice Age" race is the compromise in race design I do not like - 6 is very low. Dominion is normally important in battle but for cold and hot races it is often crucial - playing Dom I I lost two moderately well equipped Ice Devil to 30 tritons in a hot sea! My own heat dominion to make it all the more embarrassing! Don't worry, be happy . . . Keir |
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On a side note, there is definitely something strange happening with heat scales in DomII. All other scales seem fairly stable, but the heat/cold can vary greatly even in a very strong dominon provinces and irrespective of seasons (sometimes even contrary to them). Maybe it has something to do with provinces themselves?
Has anyone else noticed this? I remeber Nagot posting something about the first turn oddities, but this is happening later in the game as well. |
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HJ, I pointed to this instability somewhere in the bugs threadm, maybe you would like to expand on it there. I might understand a swift towards heat in summer or cold in winter, but I seem to be getting both a stronger swift than I would expect, and in the wrong seasons.
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There are sites that could do this; did you rule them out?
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Unless we have some sites in Dom II that work as temples influencing neighbouring provinces?? A Heat+1 scale in a Niefelheim cold+3 capitol in Autumn is silly IMO. Can provide IW with the savegame if required. |
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Unless we have some sites in Dom II that work as temples influencing neighbouring provinces?? A Heat+1 scale in a Niefelheim cold+3 capitol in Autumn is silly IMO. Can provide IW with the savegame if required. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It sounds like it is a bug, the only other thing I can think of is if you were neighbouring a desert sun dominion. Edit: Actually when I think about it it might be the seasons if you have a weak dominion. Every spring or summer turn the scales try to shift towards warmer, every autumn or winter towards colder. If you have astrong dominion you will not notice this as much, but if you do have a weak dominion in a province it could theoretically shift 6 turns in a row. [ November 04, 2003, 14:54: Message edited by: johan osterman ] |
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As for tough sacred units to bless, while they're not Jotunheim / Niefelheim, the concept of Ulm Black Templars or Machakan Black Hunters with flaming weapons (lance, spear... do the fangs and hooves flame as well?) seems spiffy to me. They're high-prot (Templars have a base of 24, Hunters 22 if memory serves; could go Earth 9 for +4), fast because of their mounts, decently skilled, and have rather good HP considering that they're human.
Abysian Lava Warriors boosted by Blood 9 seems a touch in theme and get very impressive strength when combined with berserk (flagellants on steroids?) but their defense is, well, abysmal. |
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In any case, astral blessing is obviously valuable for banishable sacred troops (i.e. Knights of the Sepulchre and Tomb Wyrms), or if your opponent is using a lot of MR-based magic (e.g. nether darts - although IIRC only one Jotunheim theme gets Seithkonas now), even before you get to level 9. Speaking of astral magic, please give the Virtue her astral magic back. If any pretender should be able to summon angelic hosts it should be her. It also made her a viable attacker with body ethereal, astral shield, personal luck, astral weapon - air isn't nearly as useful for this kind of thing. Of course you can still buy up astral for her, but she'll be much harder to make a contender for Astral Queen with 0 starting astral than with the 3 (IIRC) she had in Dom I. I understand wanting to have an air-specialist pretender available to most nations, but I would have preferred to see a new one instead of changing the Virtue. (Actually, I think the male Titan already fills this role pretty well, if he is available to enough nations.) |
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Sammual |
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Sammual </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It should not be the case. Should no if it isn't bugged. But I have seen no indication that it is. [ November 05, 2003, 11:32: Message edited by: johan osterman ] |
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My only regret about this is that the Virtue seems to have traded her Astral for the Female Titan's Air -- who I think was much better off with Air. Perhaps it's just me, but I don't like expensive pretenders w/ Astral 1. |
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