c\'tis themes
 

Did anyone try out the desert tombs and miasma themes?
I would like to know the details of those themes.
Are they stronger/weaker then the default?
Is the desert tombs the equivalent of DOM-I ermor?
if so, Are there more nations thet get this kind of theme?

TIA

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll leave the weaker/stronger question for someone else to answer.

Desert tombs is not equivalent to dom 1 ermor, it is somewhat similar in that it has summonable units that can reanimate undeads, but it doesn't have the destructive dominion and it has a set of units recruitable for gold that is similar to ordinary C'tis.

In the full game the Carrion woods theme for Pangaea will be more similar to the old dom 1 emror. Carrion Woods Pangaea does have a destructive dominion, and it's dominion causes some undeads to appear for free. Carrion Woods is a little special in that it both has units recruitable for gold and a destructive dominion.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

While its true that DTombs doesn't 'require' a destructive domain, it is so fricken expensive (200 points) that if you want to do anything with magic on your pretender you almost have to take a destructive domain, or at least a domain with negatives.

Though in fairness, DTombs can handle alot of negative scales fairly well...

Miasma is interesting, though maybe a poor selection for MP since your domain effect is going to tick off your neighbors, probably worse than Ermor ever did. I've been fooling around with it for fun though, havn't quite figured it out very well yet though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you elaborate on that?
Can they handle death -3? order -3? etc.

In DOM-I I could take ermor with -3 on all scales (+3 cold) and get tons of free points.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you elaborate on that?
Can they handle death -3? order -3? etc.

In DOM-I I could take ermor with -3 on all scales (+3 cold) and get tons of free points. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well like I said, I'm not an expert on Tombs, but it seems that you don't need productivity or order that badly, death also can be knocked up a bit. You don't have as much flexibility as Ermor had in Dom1, but you do have more flexibility than standard C'tis or Miasma. I'm sure there are others out there who have crunched the numbers on the scales already who can give you a concrete answer, but my 'gut' feeling is that if you are going to rely on summons and revived the productiviity and order scales are mostly unneeded. Anyway, the effects are not as bad as in Dom1, so you have more time to get your Death based economy off the ground. You could also probably add blood to the mix fairly easilly.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

My thoughts;

Desert Tombs:
Costs 200
Requires minimum heat +2 and death +2
The heat +2 puts C'tis at -%5 as it is not their prefered temerature.
No Swamp guards available.
Start with one unholy priest.
Have the ability to convert death gems into more unholy priests.
Unholy priests can generate undead for free.

The undead generation of the priests must be compared to C'tis's ordinary ability to generate undead via reanimation. It takes the priests approximately 7 turns to generate more undead than their "reanimation" cost in death gems. Thus gaining advantage in undead summons takes a bit of time. However with time it can get very impressive. The question is, will your enemies let you sit around and slowely crank up an undead generation machine. Plus by the time it really is pumping, will undead be meaningfull?

It's hard to tell. I'd say that Desert Tombs is fun, but questionable for multi-player situations.


Miasma:
Costs 50
Requires minimum heat +2
The heat +2 puts C'tis at -%5 as it is not their prefered temerature.
Sauromancer replaced by Marshmaster (-1 death, +1 water, +40 gold cost).
Raises taxes by 1% per level of dominion, but requires at least dominion 6 to start seeing benefits due to the extra heat.
Miasma requires a high dominion strength to be effective, and as such has the hidden cost of that extra dominion.

I've done some testing for the "disease" function of Miasma. I ran a few armies of enemy troop back and forth over a Miasma C'tis. Results were approximately a 5% chance of each troop getting diseased every turn they were in the Miasma dominion. Keep in mind that this is an aproximation from a small sampling. Extensive tests may get more precise results. While this is unpleasant, I don't think this will stop enemies from attacking. Particularly if the Miasma dominion is seeping into their area.

I like the idea of +5% taxes with a 10 dominion.
I don't like the Marshmaster, or the attention that the dominion will draw in multiplayer. It's a close call, but I'll probably pass on Misama.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Miasma seems actually very interesting with a strong dominion. Now the interesting question is: does the diseasing effect also apply to your non-cold blooded pretender?

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Miasma seems actually very interesting with a strong dominion. Now the interesting question is: does the diseasing effect also apply to your non-cold blooded pretender? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wondered this myself, but I've only used undead or CBed pretenders... Its annoying as well that indie priests and mages are a bit more of a risk, though there must be ways to protect them from disease.

I'm not sure about this, but I think with seasons the effects of the extra heat scale arn't as bad as they would be otherwise, though it depends on how much the seasons are effecting the temperature scales. My point is that though you have a +1 default difference from prefered, during certain seasons you will be at prefered, while other nations would be 1 off of their prefered... Of course what matters is how many seasons, and how far off of prefered Miasma is compared to other nations, but remember a swing of -2 is only an effect of -1 for miasma, there is no swing of +2 (which would be -3...)

Also miasma decreases taxes outside of your boarders by a decent amount (if I remember correctly) where you have domain, and the fact that you will take heat 2 and death 2 means that you will further complicate enemies taxes where you can get a domain advantage, if you are able to do it right you will really create problems for your neighbors, which of course will create problems for you in MP... I dunno, it will be interesting to see how it works in practicality.

Also you can seemingly use sloth at a high level since you don't have alot of resource hungry units (if you go with serpents and summons) so you can further crud up border provinces... seems Miasma is could be very effective for domain pushing since it adds more negatives to your neighbors.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think what he meant by "destructive domain" is the way Dom I Ermorian dominion kills people really really fast. Like thousands of deaths per turn. No amount of death scale can match the killer dominion.

Desert Tombs does not have this kind of killer dominion, however, it does require heat 2 (which is 1 more than C'tis's preferred heat) and death 2 (which nobody likes, although C'tis can tolerate it better than most).

Scales with Desert Tombs:

Order - you can get some commanders by summoning, although it is expensive. A lot of troops are undead and cost no maintenance. Desert Tombs C'tis probably needs gold less than most nations (although that isn't saying much).

Productivity - you don't need it. Default C'tis can get away with some sloth (IMO) and Desert Tombs even more so. A substantial part of your forces come from summons or unholy priest reanimation, and a lot of the rest are low-resource anyway.

Heat - at least 2 heat is required. If you have a strong fire-using pretender you might want to take 3 to boost your fire summons, but C'tis (even DT) gets no fire mages. I would have liked to see an undead sauromancer with (say) death-3 fire-2; low versatility and they lose the nature magic, but it would give them a use for their fire gem income, and potential Banefire/Reanimate Archers/King of Banefires access. Oh well, I guess you can still do this through the right pretender.

Growth - at least 2 death is required. You might be able to get away with 3, but 2 is already cutting into your income and supplies for your living troops (you get most of C'tis's normal troops in addition to the unholy undeads) - in addition to your heat penalty.

Fortune - what you should do in fortune depends on what you are doing in order and magic. Misfortune synergizes really nastily with lots of other scales (not only negative ones) - you can already get a lot of droughts and plagues, if you have magic you get to be overrun by vinemen and other magic beings too.

Magic - really helps. Desert Tombs keeps the Shaman who is a cheap sacred researcher - they benefit a lot from a magic scale. Also, the fatigue reduction benefits Sauromancers and Shaman on the battlefield (there are death evocations now, in addition to the lesser undead summons and, if you're reckless enough, Lammashtas). On the other hand there is the magic resistance thing (and of course point cost - it may be easier to get a good blessing if you're not putting points in scales).

I like magic scales in general because they let me stay competitive in magic while sending a good number of mages out to search (and thus get a higher gem income). C'tis gets a powerful mage at a good price, and Death magic may be better on the battlefield in Dom II, so they are well placed to benefit from an emphasis on magic. But if you just have tons of gold (literally - Dom II's monetary unit is the pound of gold), you can recruit enough mages that it doesn't matter whether you take magic or drain.


On the whole - I like Desert Tombs for the ability to get both holy 4 and unholy 4 priests (not counting prophets - btw, making a DT unholy priest your prophet makes him a stronger unholy priest). They get a nice unholy undead, although it's a one per turn reanimate on a commander that costs 23 death gems. C'tis can normally get into the water without too much trouble but the increased emphasis on undead makes it even easier (although the unpriests don't have inherent amphibian or poor amphibian, so you may want a water pretender to forge them some items if you expect entering water to be important to you).

Unlike Dom I Ermor, they don't have a bootstrap problem (need a Dusk Elder to summon a Dusk Elder) because a Sauromancer can be recruited for gold and cast all their special summons.

On the other hand: it costs 200 points (pretty steep) and requires some significant negative scales. Your bless effects will probably be rather limited because of the high point cost of the theme itself (which in turn somewhat limits the usefulness of the tomb wyrms). No nature gems in the capitol (although you still have Nature-1s to search with, and maybe a Nature-2 if you buy enough Sauromancers - this will get you onto the booster forging track for Nature, without empowering). Hard to find an effective use for your base fire gem income unless you get a fire Sauromancer early or have a fire skilled pretender (which is therefore recommended - heat 2 works nicely with this too). I don't think losing the Swamp Guards is a big factor but some may disagree.


I haven't played Miasma yet, but unlike Dom I Ermor, its effects stop when you lose dominion, so I would expect it to be both less potent and less irritating to neighbors. On the other hand its defensive benefit can't be countered by supply items, but only by undead or constructs. I really wouldn't want to try seiging and storming a Citadel or Hill Fortress (let alone a Mountain Citadel - this seems made for Miasma, since it has to be sieged for a long long time and then has lots of poison sling missile towers when they try to storm) in a Miasma dominion.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Costs 10.

Quote:

Requires minimum heat +2 The heat +2 puts C'tis at -%5 as it is not their prefered temerature.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">4% actually (you start with a dominion of 1). Recruit a LK in turn 1, have him preach immediately. Once your dominion strength reaches 5, you're even. After that, it's free bonus. You can of course do the same in every rich province you control once heat reaches +2, if your dominion is low there.

And remember you're not alone in this game, and most other players will have a preferred heat/cold scale which is neutral or opposite to yours. These influences will work against you, therefore heat+2 might actually be better than heat+1 for your econ.

Quote:

Sauromancer replaced by Marshmaster (-1 death, +1 water, +40 gold cost).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You forgot +1 nature. 6 magic levels instead of 5. You wanted that for free? Similar in cost to a Crone or a Norna, at least as good as them, and recruitable everywhere.

Quote:

Raises taxes by 1% per level of dominion, but requires at least dominion 6 to start seeing benefits due to the extra heat.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Might be an issue for the first 2-3 turns.

Quote:

Miasma requires a high dominion strength to be effective, and as such has the hidden cost of that extra dominion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's even effective with a low dominion.

Quote:

I like the idea of +5% taxes with a 10 dominion. I don't like the Marshmaster, or the attention that the dominion will draw in multiplayer. It's a close call, but I'll probably pass on Misama.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like the Marshmaster, I doubt the dominion will draw that much attention in MP (unless you play your dominion very aggressively), and I wouldn't pass on Miasma. Its only drawback in my view (and you made no mention of it) is it will make the recruiting of independent troops, and especially independent mages, an hazardous affair.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wondered this myself, but I've only used undead or CBed pretenders... Its annoying as well that indie priests and mages are a bit more of a risk, though there must be ways to protect them from disease.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I remember that in Doms 1 poison resisance offered protection against some forms of disease. Something else to check.

Quote:

I'm not sure about this, but I think with seasons the effects of the extra heat scale arn't as bad as they would be otherwise, though it depends on how much the seasons are effecting the temperature scales.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't doubt it will be actually better in most cases. Imagine a situation in which you start surrounded by Caelum, Jotunheim and Vanheim... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Quote:

Also miasma decreases taxes outside of your boarders by a decent amount (if I remember correctly) where you have domain, and the fact that you will take heat 2 and death 2

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Err, only heat +2 is required for Miasma.

Quote:

means that you will further complicate enemies taxes where you can get a domain advantage, if you are able to do it right you will really create problems for your neighbors, which of course will create problems for you in MP... I dunno, it will be interesting to see how it works in practicality.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt that will be a problem for your neighbours. Unless they're tempted to grab your own provinces, ofc. It's not that hard to keep an adverse dominion at bay on a peaceful border.

Quote:

Also you can seemingly use sloth at a high level since you don't have alot of resource hungry units (if you go with serpents and summons) so you can further crud up border provinces... seems Miasma is could be very effective for domain pushing since it adds more negatives to your neighbors.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could use sloth, I wouldn't myself. The sacred serpents are useful only for their standard effect, they don't warrant uberbless magic. With Miasma, I'd prefer to invest in good scales, and a hard-to-storm castle before anything else.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Hmm, question on who is immune to disease...

I have some wights, and they are diseased...

Is there some kind of list of immune units? I was assuming (well hoping I guess) that all undead would be immune, but maybe they need lifeless to be immune, none of my lifeless undead have contracted disease (so far...).

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also miasma decreases taxes outside of your boarders by a decent amount (if I remember correctly) where you have domain, and the fact that you will take heat 2 and death 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Err, only heat +2 is required for Miasma.
>>
Isn't that what I said?

>>

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
means that you will further complicate enemies taxes where you can get a domain advantage, if you are able to do it right you will really create problems for your neighbors, which of course will create problems for you in MP... I dunno, it will be interesting to see how it works in practicality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I doubt that will be a problem for your neighbours. Unless they're tempted to grab your own provinces, ofc. It's not that hard to keep an adverse dominion at bay on a peaceful border.
>>
True the tax bit is probably not going to be an issue, but if you can spread your dominion into the border provs they will have a hard time garisoning them. On a peaceful border they may not care, but that only makes it easier for the land grabbing backstab http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Didn't you say "heat 2 AND death 2". I mean, death +2 isn't a requirement for Miasma.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Didn't you say "heat 2 AND death 2". I mean, death +2 isn't a requirement for Miasma. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, yes death is not required for Miasma, I think I had said elsewhere that you might as well take it though, since it doesn't hurt Miasma that much, and Miasma should benefit from more negative scales if you want to try to push domain on your neighbors. If you don't want to push domain, I don't think Miasma is being used to its fullest.

Anyway, some more testing on Miasma Last night (at least until my wife told me turn off the computer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) and I noticed some bugs so I'll point them out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Naga pretender (who is a good fit for Miasma) says its 20 points per new path, but on the magic selection screen it says 30, and it charges you 30. The Golden Naga (who is identical except for 2 fire rather than 2 nature) also says 20 and charges 20.

As I mentioned earlier undead do not seem to be immune to disease, though it says in the pop up for undead that they are. I had ghosts and wights both get diseased, though there seemed to be no ill effects from it (i.e. they weren't losing HP and they weren't getting new afflictions).

Anyway, I've been having fun with Miasma, though with the turn limit in the demo it's hard to tell how much on an effect its having on the AI armies. Well that and I've not been able to get enough of an income setup to put up temples to boost domain much while trying to keep recruiting enough mages to fuel research and summons.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, tested, with a 100% poison resistant Scorpion King. This didn't prevent him to get diseased as soon as turn #2.

Fastest testbed I ever had. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did he continue to lose HP etc., or was it the same thing as with undead getting the disease?

[ November 07, 2003, 00:45: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This seems to be legacy from Dom 1. Undeads DO get diseased, it just doesn't do anything to them (no hp loss, no additional afflictions...).

I think Miasma-pretender, cold-blooded or not, should NOT get diseased. After all, it's their dominion fer chris' sake! I actually haven't tested so extensively to know for sure...

- Humer

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Continuing this Miasma discussion I'm wondering what some vets think of a set up like this...

Order +3 Sloth +3 Heat +2 Growth 0 Misfortune +3 Magic +1

Resoning being that you need many resources for Miasma if you use serpents. You'll have enough to field enough Swamp Gaurds and Poison Slingers anyway. You can still use the LI as screeners and their javalin is nice en masse. You do benefit from a decent income though, and with order +3 you might as well take misfortune +3. I didn't see any reason to go for growth or death, though for more points death +1 is doable I think. Magic +1 is to help your Shamen research. I'm thinking you could also go to Heat +3 as the income loss isn't that bad and supply shouldn't be an issue with all the marshmasters and undead you will probably field.

That nets 160 extra points, less 50 for miasma is 110... I think the Dark Citadel is a good choice as it's hard to seige and cheap, though it is expensive and takes 4 turns.

As to the pretender... well you have some choices, even if you limit yourself to undead, nagas, and the lizard king (or whatever he calls himself...) Domain is important though, so taking a pretender with a higher domain is cost effective, I'd not use less than 6 and probably try for 7. Then it's about magic. I'm having a difficult time deciding what good bless effects are for the Serpets. Nature is good at some level for at least the 'zerking, though with 22hp regeneration isn't all that great (though it could be for your pretender, the Naga would use it well). Death 9 is also somewhat lacking since the serpents don't benefit from the life after death, though the fear aura could be useful (but maybe you don't need 9 in death to get some benefit from that). Earth seems popular, but fatigue isn't an issue and it's hard to get earth 9 and anything else since none of the miasma immune pretenders start with earth. Also the serpents have a low protection to begin with, adding 4 to a low number isn't as useful as adding 4 to a high number, unless you can couple in regeneration, which is really costly.

Taking high astral might be interesting though...

The research track comes next... I'd imagine that conjuration should be a priority so you can get your undead army churning, and construction is always useful. If you luck into some early blood marshmasters you could even try to set up some blood (or if you take a blood pretender). Otherwise I don't know, what schools offer the best auxilary spells for nature and death? Oh you can go for quickness too since all the MMs have water...

Heh, that's getting a bit long... oh well, if you read it give me some comments or your thoughts/experiences http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

I dont know how you calculate, but how you are so low (160 DP) ?

I assembled a quick Miasma race, with your ideas in mind, so that the race is still in the trend of what you would like:

Super Scary Miasma Defending Lizards theme :

Prince of Death, Death 9
dominions 8
Hill Fortress

order+3, productivity-3, Heat+2, growth+3, luck-3, magic+3

PoD & death 9, or holy units & death 9 : instill fear into your enemies

hill fortress is an hell to assault (big defence to bring down, then narrow passage & 32 arrows when you assault), coupled with miasma disease, and some city guards should be a good deterrent...

dominions 8 to push Miasma

growth 3 & magic 3 because I had too much design points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Growth would give you long term power thanks to your population, and +6% income. Magic +3 will make you shamen astonishing researcher, for a low upkeep.

Thats just a quick race, perhaps you can abandon death 9 (but the PoD start at 3, so this is cheap, far less costly that astral or even nature). Also growth 3 is not that needed, you can switch to prod 0.

Dont take the dark citadel anyway, too costly, and no arrows when assaulted.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My personal fave of the moment looks like this:

C'tis/Miasma
Order, Prod, Growth, Misfortune +3
Heat +2
Magic 0
Dominion 7

Mountain Citadel (low admin but impressive defense) or Dark Citadel (better admin but lacks towers) or Fortified City (good for Swamp Guards, but needs to tip one scale down).

PoD Earth 4/Death 4 (earth mainly for Firbolg castles and hammers, and Wind Ride immunity. Also self-protection ofc).

Empoisoner as prophet. Swamp Guards used mainly for conquest. Lizard Warriors mainly for inner defense (because of their higher map speed = can react faster when invaded).

Quote:

I'm having a difficult time deciding what good bless effects are for the Serpets.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not a concern for me. I use at most 3/army for their standard effect, having them escort commanders who stay behind troops.

Quote:

The research track comes next... I'd imagine that conjuration should be a priority so you can get your undead army churning, and construction is always useful.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Enchantment first: Raise undead, Behemoths. Then Alteration: ethereal Behemoths. These are my first targets.

Quote:

If you luck into some early blood marshmasters you could even try to set up some blood

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think C'tis will be busy enough researching high Conjuration, Enchantment, Alteration and Thaumaturgy (and Construction, like everybody else) to bother with blood magic for a while. Although that might not be true on site-poor maps, where blood is even more important.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Thanks for the input. I had not tried with PoD, though I should look at him. I was using a fairly highly magiced pretender for early research boosts, though if I went with more magic scale it would be easier to switch off to the shamen sooner. I may have to revise my blessings goals downward, I just don't see them as that useful to the serpents...

Anyway, what is the cost of making an empoisoner your profit vs. a lizard king? You lose the ability to hit lvl. 5 holy spells, not a big deal I suppose, the difference between 4 and 5 isn't that key. How do you use your empoisoner then? As an assassin?

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pros & cons, as Mr G. would say. The higher defense of the cheaper citadels may delay the storming by a turn, sometimes two - more diseases in enemy ranks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , and most importantly more time for you to gather reinforcements to lift the siege. Although I certainly would think twice before picking a 600+ gp castle without earth magic (either on the pretender or the national mages).

Quote:

and some city guards should be a good deterrent...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, yes. I usually leave the first 10 in the capital, and I recruit more only when I see the enemy coming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

I've had a good amount of success recruiting a bunch of LI in the first couple turns and useing them to beat a path through indies (with indies set at 5 or 6). I use the city gaurd then as a wall to keep the indies off the javaliners for a bit. It's been quite effective, though the CG gets chewed up after a few provinces. However, by that time I've got enough swamp gaurds ready to replace them, and then I can hit provinces that have some HI. This is all without using a SC pretender, its just the army. Is it worth sticking an early marsh master in there for some decent site searching?

The bummer is not being able to use indie HI at the start to help speed up the HI build up. Though maybe one can risk it, even though they will get diseased you can always suicide them at a later time, or just stick them in some backwater and let them die off...

Will their disease spread to your other troops? I guess I should test that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Level 5 holy spells" is only Smite. Try smiting with a level 5 prophet someday, and I think you'll realize it's less useful than the lower level spells. OTOH a stealthy prophet can do what your regular priests can't: spread your dominion outside your borders. No, I wouldn't use my prophet as an assassin - just scout and move him along my dominion's limits.

[ November 07, 2003, 17:44: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Early important leaders - an Empoisoner (if you want one as your prophet), a Lizard King (to lead your first army), an extra commander (as soon as you need him to ferry reinforcements to your army). Other than that, build troops first and recruit mages with what's left in your treasury. When you can afford a Marshmaster instead of a Shaman, buy him and search. When you have 2 sizeable campaigning armies, you can make mages a higher priority than troops. Still, don't save gold for the future, without a very good reason. At least don't in multiplayer.

Quote:

The bummer is not being able to use indie HI at the start to help speed up the HI build up. Though maybe one can risk it, even though they will get diseased you can always suicide them at a later time, or just stick them in some backwater and let them die off...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I still buy independents with Miasma if I have gold and a use for them. They never Last long enough to die from their diseases anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif - unless they have only 1 hp left after a battle OFC.

Quote:

Will their disease spread to your other troops?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think so - at least it didn't in Doms 1.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

So what is a game starting sequence for you then?

Mine had been:
Turn1
1) recruit a MM, and 10 LI
2) research with the pretender
3) defend with the HI commander

Turn2
1a) recruit a shaman and swamp gaurds
1b) or recruit a few swamp gaurds and save cash for a lizard king next turn
2) research with pretender
3) give the 10 LI to the MM, set orders for fire closest
4) set orders for fire closest to the other LI, set orders for attack closest to the CG and commander
5) attack the easiest looking province with the MM and the commander
turn3
1a) recruit shaman and swamp gaurd
1b) recruit lizard king and swamp gaurd/serpents
2) research with pretender and other mage (if 1a)
3) search new province with MM, patrol with other commander
turn4
1a) recruit shaman and save for lizard king
1b) recruit serpents and swamp gaurd
2) prophitize the LK
3) attack another province with the MM and comander (if there is another that makes a good target)
4) reenforce MM and comander army with a shaman and other units
turn5
...

You get the idea... eventually I'd have the LK with a decent number of serpents joining the first army. by turn 10 I'd be able to make 2 armies if needs be, or focus on more difficult provinces. Eventually I'd get enchantment and conjuration where I want and would start summoning...

Room for improvement in my sequence I guess, I hope you'll have some good advice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Some more notes on C'tis units :

with Miasma you get the serpent dancer, which is not that terrible, but is perhaps the cheapest unit available with a so high defence (20 gp, and 16 def). Very vulnerable to archer fire, but mixed with some heavy infantry, they will gladily parry some of the attacks of your enemy. Rather secondary in role, true.

If you compare the city guard to Ctis heavy infantry, I think the city guard comes ahead. 2 less defence true, but an unvaluable strat move of 2 compared to 1 for the HI. Also, his nifty x2 bonus in castle defence, which is rather handy when you have 50 to 100 around...

for sacred serpent and his standard effect : now that we know (thanks JO) how is calculated the area, I would not advise to simply put them in with a commander in the the rear of a big formation: I dont think that with 10 squares total you can affect anything past 3, or even 2, in radius.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pros & cons, as Mr G. would say. The higher defense of the cheaper citadels may delay the storming by a turn, sometimes two - more diseases in enemy ranks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , and most importantly more time for you to gather reinforcements to lift the siege. Although I certainly would think twice before picking a 600+ gp castle without earth magic (either on the pretender or the national mages).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think I still prefer the hill fortress, compared to the dark citadel. The dark citadel has more defence, so perhaps buy you a turn, but when you storm one, there is nothing in your favor (no arrows).

Whereas try to storm a hill fortress. Even in storm, the 32 arrows fire so close that you are certain to hit units. With some units holding the breach (a mixed group of city guards that you would happen to have and lizard warriors, because they have high morale), you can hold without too much problem at least 8 rounds, and this is a very minimal assessment (there is only 3 squares to fight in the inner courtyard).
During these 8 rounds, you will have fired 250 arrows, at point blank (accurary is not a big problem, even in storm). Thats mean some losses, which means in return less troops to breach the wall of another of your castle.

And dark citadel cost 600 gp, which is simply too much in dom2 (I plan to launch a discussion on this btw, the gold cost is not valued enough I think).

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually you do not get serpent dancers with miasma (or DTombs for that matter). I agree that CG is better than HI, but not better than SGs. Well at least for attacking, in defending forts they are probably better as you can get 6 for 5 in gold cost and near 2 for 1 in resource cost, not counting their 2x defense bonus.

The serpents should be mixed in somewhat with your infantry too, though I like to try to flank with a group of them, if they get into the back of the enemy they are quite disruptive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To be fair I still haven't seen a hill fortress "in action", so you're a better judge than me on this.

Quote:

And dark citadel cost 600 gp, which is simply too much

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Didn't I say I'd think twice before picking such a fortress without at least a bit of earth magic? Anyway I doubt we'll see as many fortresses in Doms 2 as we were used to in PPP, where you'd build them for economic reasons as much as for strategic ones. That's no more the case (a good thing IMO), now you build them for strategic reasons, and only if your income is high enough to build extra troops there. In small packed games, these cheap (in design points) 350 defense citadels are a bargain, if you don't expect to build any. In rich or big games, I'd pick a 300-450 gp castle any day (although I might want to go for high defense/low DP cost in site-rich games with an earth nation or pretender).

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Can you enlighten me please http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

What is the advantage of earth magic with forts?

I probably should know, but I don't http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Just my opinions but;

The elite warriors are the bread and butter for C'tis, just like Dom I. If not using them then use the LI. All the rest of C'tissian troops are second rate. The only other troop I'd make is the Swamp Guard, and only under limited circumstances.

Even with the better defenses of some of the forts, I'd sooner chew off my left leg than take a fort other than the fortified city or wizards tower. Even with lower admin effects, the extra gold is clutch. Furthermore fort defense is nonsense. What does extra fort defense buy you? Some smug emotional feeling that you are doing some extra damage to someone as they remove you from the game? Pointless. Do not plan around having your forts under siege. That is planning towards your own defeat. Take a better admin fort, so you have more gold, so you can make more troops, so you win in the field, so you never have to defend your own forts. Plan for victory. If you plan for defeat you are going to get what you planned for.

[ November 07, 2003, 19:53: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To be fair I still haven't seen a hill fortress "in action", so you're a better judge than me on this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I posted a thread with the stats of forts when assaulted, also, you can find a xls file on Sunray site.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no, thats just that Nagot already browsed all new spells http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
There is a spell which strengthen your walls in earth magic.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you'd just drown your enemies in fragile units that are cheap? The advantage outside of cheapness that these guys have over other C'tis units is speed, and they arn't *that* much faster.

-edit--- morale is 2 higher than SG...

And why not use poison slingers? They seem to be pretty useful to me, and in smallish numbers at that.

I do agree with you about forts for the most part though. But in the case of miasma a few well placed forts may be enough of a deterent to keep you from being attacked in the first place. If the enemy has to keep their seige armies in there for a while they are going to be useless once they are done from all the disease they will acculmulate. So its a preventative measure (potentially).

[ November 07, 2003, 20:08: Message edited by: licker ]

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no, thats just that Nagot already browsed all new spells http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
There is a spell which strengthen your walls in earth magic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahh, ok I knew about that spell, just thought he was talking about something else... some intrinsic bonus for forts from earth magic... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that, but I have RP problems (yes even in pbem I dont like to build them) with them, as I dont see Ctis having only savage lizards as soldiers. I prefer to say myself that we are a proud bunch of civilized lizardmen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Though, they take big losses, and as they cost much, I suspect this will be more problematic with the lower gold settings of dom2.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Generally I think the same, but having too much this frame of mind is not perfect either. Or otherwise great commanders would not have reserve, and would commit all their troops at once, following your principle.
I think there is still room for defence in race design. This can even spare you a war, thus netting you a big gain. Thats depend really of the penalties that you incur when taking some defensive dispositions. If you only get a reduction of 5% of your income, but strengthen by a very big factor the defence of your empire, then its viable, as the chance it act as a deterrent is real.
Extreme positions are not always the best, but your milleage may vary.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Licker, the lizard warriors does far more damage too (trident and bite). There is a 9 prot Version, but still it takes some losses.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, more damage dealt from the trident (and it's length 4 as well), they have slightly better morale. Though I wonder where the break point is for higher morale vs. higher loses due to more casualties. They are resource cheap, but not gold cheap compared to SGs and other infantry. I should look at them more though, I was discounting them due to their fragile nature and cost. How do you deal with archers then? Seemingly these guys (even the 9proc Version) are going to take a beating before they hit their target.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

A few points.

Planning for victory does not exclude realising the value of fortresses near the border with someone you don't wish to fight. Your opponnent looks at and thinks - "I'll take forever to take that" - and it influences their decision making. I'm not endorsing any specific low admin stronghold but saying that a part of the role of building castles is to secure the area. With the wide open multi-player borders of some maps castles are how we put down terrain and their defendability does matter. I'm aggressive but I don't invade all my neighbours at once.

Lizard Warriors ability to deal damage is brutal. As long as you have got a heat scale they can kill an early game super combatent - they've done it to my Niefelheim Earth 9 nature 9 blessed Niefel giant.

Didn't Alex mention he had success using big armies of LI javelin backed by a Lizard King and a couple of sacred serpents.

Cheers

Keir

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes I believe he did mention that, which was why I was questioning him further about his stance that the Elite warriors were the way to go...

I do not doubt their efficacy, I just want more discussion than simple statements stating they are the 'only' or 'best' way to go.

Anyway, I've had good success using LI and SGs early, then later adding in Poison Slingers and Serpents. The SGs are fairly solid and my loses with them leading a charge are quite low, the only time I have problmes is when the LI get a bit ahead of the SGs, or draw *alot* of missile fire. The slingers are great at pelting the enemy HI and weakening them so they die faster when the serpents and SGs reach them (or vice versa). I suppose the warriors may be more effective than the SGs at getting a rout since they do more damage quickly, but they will be vulnerable to your javalins and to enemy missiles while they are on their way.

Oh well, I'll have to see how it works out for myself I guess. The bigger question with a lower gold environment is which strategy is more sustainable I suppose.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

is the SG still limited to capital? I have not checked that...

The SG problem is that they will fatigue, whereas lizards warriors can Last more rounds. But yes, the SG are really good thanks to their resilience (18 prot and a shield).

Also, the problem of Ctis lie sometime in his morale, and the LW morale is very good. Even a lizard king wont suffice sometime, if you have a morale of 10 and fight in enemy dominion.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">SG can be recruited anywhere, poinson slingers are limited to the capital (as is the empoisoner).

The difference in encumberance for the elite warrior and the SG is only... 3 I think, its not big. The Slave warrior has a lower enc though, but virtually no protection.

Morale may be a bigger issue, but I havn't noticed my SG routing all that much, at least not until they've taken some bad casualties. Of course a LK or two helps tremendously, as do the serpents.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Assuming a PoD pretender, indeps 7.

Turn 1:
* recruit Empoisoner.
* troops: LI. In the next few turns I will also recruit 12-15 Swamp Guards, rest LI, until I have ~75 LI. Swamp Guards casualties will always be replaced though, so I have always at least a dozen.
* research: Conjuration 3. [Edit: sorry, that's Enchantment 4]

Turn 2:
* Empoisoner -> prophet.
* recruit Lizard King.
* more LI (or Swamp Guards instead of LI if gold is short and resources abundant - likely as the LK is costly).

Turn 3:
* Prophet will start running circles around my dominion limits to spread my influence. May stop to preach a bit in a juicy province I plan to attack soon (to get increased income when I conquer it).
* LK preachs, unless there's a province I think I can grab without too much losses, in which case I'll attack this turn with the PoD and the LK. The PoD longdeads will stand in the centre with hold/attack closest orders. Since morale isn't an issue for them, I'll spread them into as many squads as I can to avoid unecessary losses from enemy archers. Some of them, a bit offside, may be ordered to attack rear instead of hold. LI on the extreme flank, a few steps behind the skels, with orders to fire at closest. If the PoD can raise extra skels, he'll do so on the other flank. Otherwise he'll stand behind troops (using his fear aura), or holdx5 if there are enemy archers.
* troops: more LI
* leader: probably can't afford one

Turn 4:
* If I didn't attack in the previous turn I'll do now (should have at least 50 LI now). If I did and think I can do it again, then the better. If I suffered severe losses (likely) I'll search there for a turn instead and get reinforcements.
* At this time I usually start producing Swamp Guards. When I have 12-15, I'll recruit a second commander and 1 serpent to lead them (the first commander will be busy ferrying fresh troops to my main army). The SG will replace the longdeads in the centre. When I have at least 24, they'll use 'attack closest' orders instead of 'hold/attack'. Meanwhile the PoD can start searching for sites.
* leader: Shaman

Turn 5+:
* As long as I'm confident enough to invade a new province, I do. Otherwise I search for a turn while reinforcements arrive. I try to pick the richest provinces first, or the ones next to my capital.
* In this first army, the LK will lead all the LI (as many as he can), the commander will lead the SG (as many as he can, +1-3 lizards).

Later:
* If I'm lucky enough to recruit a death 3 Marshmaster (else the PoD will do), I'll use him to summon Behemoths, and send another MM and as many Shamen as needed to lead/etherealize them.

[ November 07, 2003, 22:06: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my experience, the commander who leads the infantry always try to be as close to his troops as he can, and the serpents follow. I've even seen bodyguards serpents moving to the front rank and use their teeth there. Works nice for me.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Great, thanks for the sequence... you must research pretty slowly though, especially with magic at 0.

Empoisoner + LK is 390 gold, so you'll only have maybe 110 to spend on troops in the first couple turns, that's 11 LI...

I know I prefer to start attacking as soon as I think its posible, if I were using my pretender I'd be tempted to do it on turn 2 even with your set up, assuming there was a province that looked possible. I must take more early loses than I need to though by rushing those early attacks, though if it's just the initial CG and some LI I think the additional income offsets the loses (assuming the right province is attacked...)

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no, thats just that Nagot already browsed all new spells http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
There is a spell which strengthen your walls in earth magic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've seen it, but the main reason is earth can unveil firbolg fortresses, a not-so-uncommon site.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know that. They're a bit costly in the beginning though. But once my main army of LI and Swamp Guards is built, I switch to elites (still build some SG to hold the center of the line, though - until I reach Mass Protection).

Quote:

Furthermore fort defense is nonsense. What does extra fort defense buy you?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One thing that may be very important, depending on the circumstances: time.

Quote:

Do not plan around having your forts under siege. That is planning towards your own defeat. Take a better admin fort, so you have more gold, so you can make more troops, so you win in the field.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's your theory. I think you overrate the extra gold you get from the high-admin forts, and you don't take into account an important thing: an enemy army that's pinned for 2 more turns outside your walls is an army that lost 2 turns - that also has a cost, and a far higher one than that extra elite warrior/turn you recruited in your fortified city. I don't plan for defeat, but if I am invaded, I want my enemy to pay for it.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

Another thought on fort admin...

In Dom2 it will only really help you in high income provinces, building a high admin fort in a province with an income less than 20 would get you at most 5 extra gc (if I understand how the new system works).

However, for strategic reasons you may want (or indeed need) your forts in low income provinces, so the admin value is not the primary consideration for those forts. I suppose the question is how much do you gain from building high admin forts in every high income province, vs. taking better def, lower design point cost, cheaper, faster forts?

Anyway... C'tis playing Miasma benefits more from high def forts than other nations do, since the effects of prolonged exposure to the Miasma domain will slowly destroy armies. Of course the enemy can try to get the C'tis domain down before he starts the seige, but that's just more time and effort required on his part.

Re: c\'tis themes
 

>So you'd just drown your enemies in fragile units that are cheap? The advantage outside of cheapness that these guys have over other C'tis units is speed, and they arn't *that* much faster. -edit--- morale is 2 higher than SG...

It's a combination of higher morale, large numbers due to low resource cost, and most of all the damage delt by two attacks. The bite attack is almost as strong as the regular C'tissian troops spear attack, plus they get a much higher damage trident attack.

I do use the LI also. I did mention them, however they take a beating from arrows, so I tend to change over to Elite Warriors. Still they are one of the few light troops worth making.

Swamp Guard don't combine well with the other troops becuase they are much slower. Plus they can only be made in small numbers and are a shard low on morale for heavy troops. I only use them if I need a large screen of troops that can absorb missile fire.

One mistake from the post that started this theme. I do use poison slingers, but only in small numbers. Their use is so specialized that I don't consider them regular troops. I make armies of undead using reanimation. I place 5 slingers behind 50 undead. This combo works very well for busting up high quality enemy armies in multiplayer. I wouldn't waste it versus the computer. The undead are immune to poison. Enemies get jammed up fighting the undead and are forced to fight in the poison clouds. Undead losses tend to be high, but the extended exposure to poison can take a tremendous number of quailty enemy troops down. Mannikins work just as well as reanimations.


Firblog fortresses were a huge thing in Dom I, but I am finding them much more rare in Dom II. It's a shame, as they were one of the hidden benefits of earth magic.