Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Normaly Ulm are not affected by drain on the Magic/Drain scale. To get iron faith you need one step towards drain. Now to the strange part, when selecting iron faith you become affected by it. Why are Ulm with iron faith affected by drain? This means that Ulms best researcher will gain the enormous amount of 3 research points (witn 1 to drain).

/Morkul

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IOW, Iron Faith sucks. You're not the first one to make this discovery. Too bad Ulm can't (seriously) pick Golem Cult either (requires magic +1), my smiths will never build these beefed up Crushers and Iron Dragons they dream of...

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Iron Faith doesn't get Smiths, just Black Priests. They have a random magic ability each though, which seems like a pretty good ability, especially since they're Holy (cheap to maintain). Blessed Black Templars could be potent, too, and even unblessed, their holy status makes them 25% cheaper to maintain than Black Knights. I thought the main idea of Ulm, and especially Black Faith, was that you were sacrificing magic ability for heavy metal equipment. So... it makes sense for it to be disadvantaged at magic. Black lanterns can help catch up on research.

I don't mean to claim I know they're balanced or anything - just some ideas that make them seem neat to me from my relatively newb perspective.

As for the original question of why the black priests are affected by the drain (or why they wouldn't be) ... I don't know.

PvK

[ November 06, 2003, 02:45: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes, I think this is a big oversight. Golem Cult would be very interesting for Ulm, as it would add a very "thematic theme" for smiths. But as the theme is screwed with magic +1, then you can drop it.
I must say that as of now, I'm not that happy with themes. Many have a big potential, not necessarly in power, but in originality. But as of now, they are either underpowered, or not polished enough, with loopholes found in many places.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Yeah, just tried Iron Faith with Drain 3, got 1 RP Black Priests, quitted game ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
First I don't know if the fact that IF Ulm is affected by drain is a design decision or a bug, in the former case it should be documented (currently the Ulm overview tells it's unaffected..)
If it's abug it should be fixed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , else if it's a design decision, it means that you have to take neutral or magic scales to play IF Ulm (unless you really want NO magic at all... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ). I'm not sure the new units (even if powerful)restore balance for Ulm in that case.

Can a dev explain the choice ?

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's because Ulm smiths don't get affected by drain.

Other magicians (from indipendents) get affected vry well as far as I know (from DOM1).

So "iron faith" with drain1 looks much better than standard Ulm with drain3, if you take away the smiths... .

And why can't you use "golem cult" with magic1 .. apart from having too few points in the race wizard? But than again what you're expecting - you'll have to pay for that golems somehow.

Things may be a bit unbalanced, but saying "it sucks" is a bit too much IMHO.

A.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Because otherwise they would be all too similar to master smiths? And the only difference would be the presence of holy units, and there would no point in taking regular Ulm then? To me it seems very thematic, as iron faith is one step even further away from magic since they now worship iron, and are even less concerned and more conservative about magic.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I designed an Ulm/GC pretender... but really, having to pay 210 points for the theme and only get +1 research on your smiths is a bit costly. Not to mention your troops have a base MR of 9, and direly miss the drain bonus.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's because Ulm smiths don't get affected by drain.

Other magicians (from indipendents) get affected vry well as far as I know (from DOM1).

So "iron faith" with drain1 looks much better than standard Ulm with drain3, if you take away the smiths... .

And why can't you use "golem cult" with magic1 .. apart from having too few points in the race wizard? But than again what you're expecting - you'll have to pay for that golems somehow.

Things may be a bit unbalanced, but saying "it sucks" is a bit too much IMHO.

A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe, but the Black Priests are crappy mages, and you have to pay the price of a good priest to get them ..With Drain 1 they only have 2-3 RPs, half of what a Smith get ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Additionnally they are only buildable at the capitol, in the early game you can't build much of them because you also need to build fighting commanders..

In the end IF Ulm looks unbalanced to me - or at least worse than standard Ulm, note also that you have to PAY for getting IF theme !

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Blessable knights, however, are down right evil. Try a pretender with Death 6, Earth 6 or Nature 4, Earth 6 or a green dragon with Nature 9 - and base your initial game on blessed knights.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Blessable knights, however, are down right evil. Try a pretender with Death 6, Earth 6 or Nature 4, Earth 6 or a green dragon with Nature 9 - and base your initial game on blessed knights. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Leif on the general point. If you play the IF theme and don't abuse the whole sacred thing then I you are missing a big part of the advanategs of IF Ulm. Ulm IF is particularily magic weak so bless effects become a good substitute as you start with them (no need to rersearch them) and they are just like magic really. Also a pretender with powerful bless effects can make a good research at the start to get construction up.

Happy Metalling,

Keir

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Many players stated in other threads that Ulm's speciality lies in heavy infantry... which I entirely disagree. I've always been a fan of the Black Knights, and blessed templars with the right dominion now finally don't suffer Ulm's major weakness: They can survive a few misplaced arbalest bolts.

Magic is for weaklings, have faith! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

I didn't see you quoted the forging ability of black priest.

Try a game with a difficult research setting. take iron faith (of course). god design : 3drain, 1growth, 3prod, 1order, 1misfo, strong dominion. leave research until you find a libray.

You'll have stronger armies (as long as you fight in your dominion).

For quick games it's a valid startegy, of course in a long term it may be less viable to bet on Iron faith.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

BTW, does anyone know if the constructs are considered holy units in the golem cult? That would make them very interesting.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think national themes and generic ones should be kept distinct, so you could pick one of each - eg, Serpent Cult + Water Cult for Pythium, Niefelheim + Heart of Winter for Jotunheim, Iron Faith + Ceremonial Faith for Ulm - all seem thematic.

About strictly national themes, I don't think Serpent Cult and Miasma are underpowered (well, about the former, it may look so when you compare it to the overpowered regular Pythium). Blood of Humans and Iron Faith certainly are. Anyway let's wait for a couple more weeks before forging opinions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

sure, and I think the MP frequency of these themes will be a good indicator on how they are balanced (or not). Because MP is a very competitive environment, where people make tests before playing.

I was a bit cooled down on theme, after having tried Blood of Human Desert Tombs, and then Serpent Cult. Serpent Cult is not that bad, but compared to regular Pythium dont stand in power. If themes are only there for SP, because they are underpowered, then it would be a pity.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The description says cult constructs get more health when built in your dominion - how much more BTW? Is it dependent on dominion strength?. If you add holiness on top of that - wow! Now what kind of blessing would you prefer on a Crusher? A Golem? A Gargoyle? An Iron Dragon?

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

I don't think the bless bonus would meant much to a crusher (besides regeneration, which I doubt would be allowed). Possible astral would be good, for the extra MR, but that's about it.

Now, if the the HT bonus is similar to the one found in pretender and prophets, then it would be too strong IMHO.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The description says cult constructs get more health when built in your dominion - how much more BTW? Is it dependent on dominion strength?. If you add holiness on top of that - wow! Now what kind of blessing would you prefer on a Crusher? A Golem? A Gargoyle? An Iron Dragon? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Keir -- Agreed. Worse magic (through worse research) + fast, powerful sacred units => emphasize might even more.
The Templars are the high point of Iron Faith, so they should be exploited to the max with berserk or flaming weapons or reinvigoration or whatever-have-you.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have faith that the themes will get better balanced once the full game is out, and more people have a chance to fully explore them

Besides why not have a PBEM where each nation has to take a theme? A non-standard nation matchup or whatever you want to call it. Not every MP game has to be an open format http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, there's always idiots like me who prefer to use the themes for 'personal' reasons, even if it would appear to be a disadvantage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Worse" ?? You mean "NO magic" ! How are you supposed to win a game with 80% RPs less than any other nation, and not even heavy drain to help your MR, unless it's a solo demo game ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, considering that (1) Arch-Theurs are costly and (2) wards now have limited range, I think the Serpent Cult mages are better suited to support hybrid armies (hydras + regular troops). The blessable hydras are a small but nice bonus, and their higher cost isn't that painful - I think you break even after 7 turns of upkeep, if your holy hydras survive that long.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And without heavy drain, your best units have only a MR of 9 (BKs) or 10 (templars). Pretty low for such expensive units. Your basic druid will put them to sleep like babies.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe, but it won't measure how fun they are to play.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Actually, I tried Iron Faith and didn't have any problems. I picked an Alchemist with Earth 4, Fire 4, and built a horde of Black Templars. Using my alchy for research allowed me to get some decent equipment for my prophet-priest, who led my Templars in battle. Seemed worth it to me, especially in a game environment that seems to be more undead-heavy than the first one. I notice that most huge armies (i.e. those sporting undead) turn out to be of little substance once the mass banishes kick in.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

I still think people are missing the point of the IF theme. To play IF your pretender needs to have really good magic and is going to sit at home for awhile until you get construction level 4. Once you get that turn the pretender into a summoner and have you priest start making research bonus items. While that happening your blessed Knight Templars are going to have insane buffs and be wiping the competition. Playing IF right you should not fear high magic nations and nobody can touch you Knight Templars.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe, but it won't measure how fun they are to play. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Having the themes balanced would not remove their 'fun' ie originality, but would open them to MP play where competitivness is always (well, often) a factor considered by players.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That remains to be seen, methinks. As they are now, I like the flavour that they add, which partly stems from their imperfection. Or rather, the tradeoffs on which they are based. I would like to see it stay that way.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Iron Faith shows a zero point cost to me.

PvK

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That remains to be seen, methinks. As they are now, I like the flavour that they add, which partly stems from their imperfection. Or rather, the tradeoffs on which they are based. I would like to see it stay that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">an example, as this is the theme I know the best : Blood of nation theme is weak compared to standard Abysia. A tweak, which would be rather in line (more humans, less Abysian) would be to add a site which give 2 slaves (human virgin) a turn in the capital. I dont see how it can be detrimental to the originality of the theme, and this could equilibrate it.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Hiya'll,

There seem to be to parallel discussions going on in this thread. One in which people discuss in abstract the relative power (or lack of) of themes and express concern at on the weakness of IF and another in which people discuss the concrete nature of IF and how to make it work. Reading the Posts of those involved in the general discussion you could almost wonder if they have read the specifics provided by people - as these, to me, condradict the general statements being made yet have not been addressed in any detail.

Nahntanaj spells it out very nicely. High magic pretender does research, provides bless effects, extra long term power, and the abilty to find all sorts of wonderful indie mages if you do it right, Templers conquer indie's and bingo you are away. What comes next is really hard to say and in my MP experiance a big empire tends to find alot of alternate magical options along with some good alternate troop/summoning options. Sure the Templers are vunerable to enemy magic as the game goes on - thats why you rely on them early and just use them later if you get my point.

PDF how can you say no magic? The pretender provides a heap of magic from the get go due to bless effects, high research capability (friend uses the sage), high magic capability, ability to summon mages, and ability to find indie mages. I consider drain 3 to be a perfectly decent approach for many, many races. I have never failed to find sages for research in MP - most games I get two sites - and they research fine under drain. Sages are one of the most important randoms in the game - and quite commen.

The point about themes in the abstract is that there are certain approaches to playing a race which simply become stronger by using the theme. Niefelheim for Jotun is an obvious example of this and yet is still coping some criticism as being weak!? While Tomb's for Ctis may be weak in terms of general Ctis game play I have always found Ctis general gameplay to be weak so hardly worth pursing. So I consider the Tomb and Miasma options to be the ones worth exploring for Ctis. For how I have previously enjoyed playing Ctis I would be insane to choose the normal option instead of Tombs.

I do not have any capability of providing an accurate measure of how weak or strong a particular theme is in abstract from the details of how its is to be played. As people are only just begining to figure out a fraction of the possible approaches to playing Dom II I am unconvinced by most of the abstract discussion.

For each theme/bess option the question is how you can most consistently follow this approach in a whole game strategy. The most important thing is to have an explosive start (though you don't always have to explode province wise) as how you transition to the middle game is dependent on your start. After that it becomes more useful to look at abstracts as its hard to now how things will develop but that very uncertainty is what makes nailing the start so important.

Another important point is that the best race for any individual is not necessarily the best race in abstract. For multi-player I strongly recommmend people to take races which they enjoy the style of play of and feel comfortable with ahead of simply hunting for the most powerful. People play differing strategies with varying capability. Part of optimizing for MP is finding out how you play best. The main stream idea of what is best is important - but don't give it to much weight.

Often the difference between the more powerful and less powerful races are less than the luck of the start thus the importance of speed to counter a poor starting position is what shapes alot of mutli-player possiblities:

"I could take a slow race that will be amazing if things go right or I could take a fast race that can adapt? How many months am I hoping to be playing this game for . . . think I'll choose the fast one."

This sort of logic allows for many long term weaknesses such as those of Templers. I have won with Death 3 using Abysia in Dom I and my core was hammered by the end of the game due to blood hunting and the death dominion. My race had no long term survivability but won due to focus - themes provide possibilites for increasing focus.

Hope that this is of some use.

cheers

Keir

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Iron Faith shows a zero point cost to me.

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're right, mistake from my part http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Sorry !
But it doesn't still make IF much appealing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That remains to be seen, methinks. As they are now, I like the flavour that they add, which partly stems from their imperfection. Or rather, the tradeoffs on which they are based. I would like to see it stay that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">an example, as this is the theme I know the best : Blood of nation theme is weak compared to standard Abysia. A tweak, which would be rather in line (more humans, less Abysian) would be to add a site which give 2 slaves (human virgin) a turn in the capital. I dont see how it can be detrimental to the originality of the theme, and this could equilibrate it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think what Blood of Humans needs is a Warlock Apprentice (wait, they already used that... make that Warlock Apprentice Apprentice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). A human (or at least a Humanbred) with Blood-1 for 60 or so. He's a researcher, he's a slave hunter, he can summon a few minor demons, he can forge SDR and some other items... but without the physical might and heat auras of true Abysians (perhaps even without heat resistance).

Abysia has always needed a cheap mage, even since Dom I. Apprentice Warlocks help, but the new Humanbred Apprentice would be even cheaper.

An interesting alternative would be Blood-1 Fire-1 for 90-100: Humanbred Diabolist or something like that. BoH loses the Demonbred which is normal Abysia's only mage to combine Blood with Fire (except for Fire-random Warlocks, Ba'al Chozron (if he's still around and BoH can get him) and possibly the pretender).

It seems clear that BoH needs something to offset its disadvantages. I think a cheap mage could be just the thing.


As for Iron Faith - if you aren't using Templars extensively, why are you playing IF at all? I don't think it's unreasonable for Black Priests to get drain immunity, though. (And the Master Alchemist, too - he's basically a pretender Master Smith, IIRC). Being too far behind in research will negate a lot of other advantages.

Themes in general: yes, they should have tradeoffs. But they shouldn't be obviously stronger or weaker - the point of tradeoffs is that all options should have some advantages and some disadvantages. High point costing themes that provide a wider array of units (Desert Tombs), cheap themes that add some units but delete others (Iron Faith, Miasma), or the generic themes that don't cost many points but generally have minor effects.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a good idea, one problem might be that it would very similar to Mictlan's High Temple of the Sun (3 slaves/turn in the capital). Still, other nations have similar sites so, why not??

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So not only does blood of humans flow in veins of your soldiers, you get to spill more of it as well? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The only thing that I was saying was that I'd hate to the distinctive flavour of the theme lost in the process of balancing, and that if such risk exists I would prefer everything to stay the way it is.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

Chris : I thought of your suggestion too, but to me it seems that IW take great care in not giving Abysia a blood mage recruitable everywhere (even the warlock apprentice, which I thought was not restricted to capital is restricted). So I'm very dubious that, if they tweak BoH theme, they will add a human blood mage with no location restriction.

But I like the idea personally...

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

It's funny to see that in one thread people says : "AI is to bad, the game is to easy".

And here : "we want powerful themes, bring us the mighty-magic back".

Ulm can be considered as an iron-only nation. If you care about background etc.. play it (in SP only if you want). If not, don't playt with the theme. Leave it untouched, forget about it.

I wonder if there is an opposite theme for another nation (understand : 90% magic 10% unit).

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

One easy thing that could be done for Iron Faith is changing the pre-researched spell. Legions of Steel requires earth-3, so it's of limited use to Ulm/standard early - which is a bit irritating -, it's even worse when you pick Iron Faith: without items, 7 out of 8 black priests will never be able to cast it.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

With IF I was able to cast LoS without doing any research

pretender : 4Fire 6earth

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">actually nobody said that. People want theme to be balanced compared to the standard theme,thats it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">with an attitude like this, hundreds of suggestions made by dozen of people goes to the trash. In essence you tell us to either play the game as it, or not play it. Very constructive.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not my point, I think that game's design include variations. Players have several option, they can choose and not choose.
<--> respectful attitude towards game designer

And, if they think, from their point of view that the game is unbalanced they can request a mod tool.
<-->constructive attitude from gamers

We should all reminds that is is only a game. And please, be tolerant with my english which don't allow me to say what I want to say in a more precise way.

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not my point, I think that game's design include variations. Players have several option, they can choose and not choose.
<--> respectful attitude towards game designer
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">sure, but dont you think that options should be balanced? And balanced dont mean equal or not fun. Just balanced.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">mod tools are ok, and allow players to create new things, but cant replace the authoritative game rules made by the game designers. Especially when these rules should be agreed upon in multiplayer.
I care for single player, so please care for multiplayer too.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">one can easily see that english is not my native language either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Question about Ulm and iron faith
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point.