Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

A friend of mine is playing around with the Death 9 blessing, and got some odd results:

1. Sacred units killed while blessed return as mindless undead. (This isn't so odd but I'm pointing it out for people who don't know what Death 9 does.)

2. However, if you have no commanders with undead leadership present, they continue to fight normally. They don't dissolve like mindless undead should. (These and the following points discuss non-commander sacred troops.)

3. Afterward they appear in the organization screen in the same squad they were in when alive. However, they can't be assigned to a new squad under the same commander (because he can't command undead). You can assign all the living members of that squad to a new squad though... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

4. In subsequent battles they still fight normally (even under a commander who can't command undead, and with no commanders who can command undead present).

Finally, and just for humor value: if you're doing this with Abysia, watch out, your heat auras can set your reanimated troops on fire. (Even that doesn't rout them, though - they're mindless.)


Frankly, the stats on the reanimated troops seem bad enough that I don't think Death 9 is particularly impressive compared to the other level 9s. It seems to me that you should at least get something reasonably powerful (about wight or lictor level) - although that would be pretty impressive if you started with flagellants, most sacred troops cost 30 and up each. Getting a soulless doesn't seem like much of a consolation for losing them.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

Interesting. I guess the return-to-life bonus would be a bit problematic if it required a commander capable of leading undead to work.

As far as the relative power of the death bonus, I don't see it as too much of a problem. Obviously all the different types of bonuses aren't going to work equally well for all types of sacred troops. I'm curious, though... do the slain troops remain sacred when they return to life?

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

I'm too under the impression that the feature is not polished. Transforming blessed troops into soulless (armored or not) if they are humanoids, and into nothing if they are not (hydras) is not satisfactory.

The perfect thing would be to have something like 10 sub categories, and assign each blessed troop into one of these categories. That would not be perfect, but at least it would allow more precision. Like vestals and valkyries transforming into a female ghost, flagellants as low level undead (but not mindless I think), and beasts into a quadrupedal ghostly animal.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

Well, tomb wyrms are already there as one subCategory for the snake-like critters. And then there are longdead horsemen for riders, and several Versions of soulless (I just saw the Caelum Version recently). What else would be needed?

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

Yes life after death sucks. I know that this wasn't a constructive post (lol), but this is the truth.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

As I've posted in the bug thread, life after death just doesn't work for the holy serpents. It's a pity, if they transformed into tomb wyrms that would make the 200 point desert tomb theme a viable option.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree, and with the number of intersting pretenders for either miasma or Dtombs starting with some (if not alot) of death making the death 9 benefit useless for c'tis is quite annoying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know it doesn't, and I saw your post. I was just hinting at how it would be possible to further develop the idea Pocus suggested (a good idea, might I add). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If holy serpents transformed into tombwyrms Deser tombs would become overpowered, the same goes for units turning into Lictors when they die. Sure the Life after death effect is not awe inspiring for many holy units, but this is also true for many other lvl 9 bless effects, such as the ones for blood or astral.

Licker, the lvl 9 bless effect is not useless for C'tis. If you are Desert tombs it will increse the fear of the tombwyrms by +5 , increasing both the area and making the fear effect more difficult to resist.

I do not hink that desert tombs is one of the weaker national themes.

[ November 06, 2003, 18:15: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

I could say something about the usefullnes of Blood 9 blesssing if would know what "Death Curse" does, but extra Mr and Auto Twist Fate for Astral 9 isn't shabby at all...

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

IIRC, if a unit kills a unit with death curse, it becomes cursed.

I'll run some tests, but my gut feeling is that allowing HS to turn into TWs wouldn't turn C'tis into a powerhouse. Neither unit is very strong to begin with, and the huge price paid by the desert tomb theme is certainly a problem.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

Death curse is quite simply a chance that anyone killing the blessed unit is cursed, MR roll.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So the fear value also increases the area of effect for fear? Didn't know that, thanks.

edit: I guess the minor fear value has the same effect of increasing the area of effect as well?

[ November 06, 2003, 18:30: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually your suggestion would make it less and not more desirable to be desert tombs, since it would mean that a magic score of 9 would give ordinary Ctis access to tombwyrms as well.

I have played Desert Tombs in MP betas and have not felt that they were underpowered.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

How about Tombwyrms from 9 Death Sacred Serpents for DT C'tis and "just" dead Sacred Serpents for C'tis?

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So the fear value also increases the area of effect for fear? Didn't know that, thanks.

edit: I guess the minor fear value has the same effect of increasing the area of effect as well? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, and every full five makes the morale roll 1 more difficult. Fear 0 is area 5 no morale mod. so a critter with fear 15 has area 20 -3 fear mod. A death mage with 1 death, area 1 morale mod -1. The fear roll works like morale in battles, which means I am not entirely clear about the details, but squad size average morale etc will factor in if squad flees or not.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the area is the same thing as area effect of the spells and the banner effect, i.e. changes every turn and is erratic, I guess. Thanks once again for the clarification.

edit: I also guess that failing a fear roll means the same thing as failing a morale check when hurt or seeing squad member die.

[ November 06, 2003, 18:43: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

Using Miasma I just lost a marshmaster to disease... he was involved in a battle vs. indies, but he had the disease at the start of the battle, just wondering how he could have gotten it, he wasn't cursed or suffering from any other afflictions.

The message that he was lost to disease came up seperately from the battle message, and he didn't die in the battle...

Seems a bit odd to me.

And I didn't ever say that SSs should become TombWyrms, just that it would be nice for them to become 'something'...

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you can get the disease from battle wounds like all other afflictions? Or maybe it was starving for a short while sometimes earlier? Did he have any other afflictions?

[ November 06, 2003, 23:38: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So the fear value also increases the area of effect for fear? Didn't know that, thanks.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very interesting. So the Prince of Death with fear (19) has a fear range of 24 and morale -3? With a helm of fear does he make it fear (20) -4 on morale saves.

Unlike many I do not like my pretenders to charge on in and risk afflictions so sitting back and scaring them away while casting spells is very appealing for my idea of a pretender SC. I really must find some time to test out my "The Dark is Rising" Fear race.

As I posted in another thread the Tomb theme enormously improves the approach I like with C'tis. And its so cool!

Johan's point about having played C'tis tomb theme MP carries alot of weight to me. For now we don't have any better experiance to base our judgement on - do we?

I suspect/hope that alot of the differences in strength of races will be more along the lines of it being easier to get a strong race out of say Arco and Pythium and harder out of some of the less rounded races.

Thanks for the info Johan.

Cheers

Keir

[ November 07, 2003, 01:19: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Horror helmet gives an extra +5 fear (+5 area morale -1). I am not sure if you have misunderstood this or not but judging from your post you might have, but the fear effect is an area not a range or a radius, So fear +19 affects 24 scuares, potentionally 72 creatures if the fearsome being is in the middle of a large flock of creatures.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was being vague and confusing when I said range but I'm rather glad I was as now I have something concrete to go in working out the area of spell affects. You couldn't post the formula could you Johan?

Back to the Prince. As you pointed out its +5 for the Helm of Death giving Fear 24 area, -4 morale. Can't be hard to give him a bonus death item (and worth it with all deaths pumpable spells) so at a fairly early stage one should be able to get him to Fear area 25, morale -5. Brrrr - sounds very, very, scary.

Be afraid of the dark - very afraid.

Keir

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I seem to have missed the key question in all this fear stuff - how do fear affects stack? ie what is the impact of having a unit in the fear affect area of multiple fear causing units?

cheers

Keir

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Horror helmet gives an extra +5 fear (+5 area morale -1). I am not sure if you have misunderstood this or not but judging from your post you might have, but the fear effect is an area not a range or a radius, So fear +19 affects 24 scuares, potentionally 72 creatures if the fearsome being is in the middle of a large flock of creatures. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm fear will be very important as I see.
It is funny I never ever bothered about fear, but this sounds very interesting.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you possible refering to a certain new 6th lvl spell? I am certainly very, very afraid of that one - unless I play with undeads of course MUHAHAAA!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you can get the disease from battle wounds like all other afflictions? Or maybe it was starving for a short while sometimes earlier? Did he have any other afflictions? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope no starving, no prior afflictions...

It had to have happened during the battle (or right after) unless I was getting leprosy or some other enemy spell... but those should take effect before combat right?

All I can think of is he got diseased somehow, got knocked down to 1hp in the battle, then died immediately after the battle ended...

It just seemed strange since I was playing with Miasma...

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you can get the disease from battle wounds like all other afflictions? Or maybe it was starving for a short while sometimes earlier? Did he have any other afflictions? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope no starving, no prior afflictions...

It had to have happened during the battle (or right after) unless I was getting leprosy or some other enemy spell... but those should take effect before combat right?

All I can think of is he got diseased somehow, got knocked down to 1hp in the battle, then died immediately after the battle ended...

It just seemed strange since I was playing with Miasma... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps you moved him through a province containg a hidden site that afflicts armies present with disease. Inkpot end and chillsick swamps springs to mind

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I seem to have missed the key question in all this fear stuff - how do fear affects stack? ie what is the impact of having a unit in the fear affect area of multiple fear causing units?

cheers

Keir [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not sure which formula you mean. If you mean the exact way it works in battle, I am not sure, I just have a vague idea. Fear works much the same as damage and kills in battle, ie it forces units to make morale checks. If enough units out of a squad fails the squad will flee. So fear will compound the effects of battle losses and vice versa.

If you mean how fear is calculated from blessings death magics and intrinsics. The area is [intrinsic fear value +5]+[death magic]+[unholy priest skill]+[item fear value(not sure if any items give greater than basic 5 area fear)]+[bless effect (ranging from 2 to 5)]+[undead bless value(5 if death 9+)]. Morale - is [integer value of(fear area/5)]-1. For example: Etimmu the wraith lord, with basic intrinsic fear (I think he has basic fear anyway), unholy priest 3, death mage 3, and a horror helmet, blessed by a death 10 god will have fear area 5+3+3+5+5+5=26. And morale mod (int.val(26/5))-1=4

Fear stacks in that a unit can be forced to make morale checks from several different sources thus increasing chance of failing if several fear sources are present.

[ November 07, 2003, 15:32: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

Several fear sources...

Does that mean that each blessed troop (with at least death 4 on the pretender) counts as a seperate source? A mass of flagellants (say 50) would create up to 50 morale checks on enemies in their wake?

Wow... that could be realy nasty...

I better take another look at death magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-edit... what does the morale mod mean? Is that the base number that the morale check is made against? So Morale_mod +2d6* vs. morale +2d6*?

[ November 07, 2003, 15:38: Message edited by: licker ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Potentionally 50 blessed flagellants from a death 10 god could force 250 morale checks a turn. This won't happen in practice of course since some of the fear aura will hit empty spaces or other flagellants etc.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

a question related to morale : can the base morale be lowered during battle (morale losses incured by failed checks dont lower the base morale, from a previous discussion).

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

Not in any way I recall.

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Potentionally 50 blessed flagellants from a death 10 god could force 250 morale checks a turn. This won't happen in practice of course since some of the fear aura will hit empty spaces or other flagellants etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This so has to be done.....
A large army of High Fear weenies routing a SC Pretender....

Sammual

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you possible refering to a certain new 6th lvl spell? I am certainly very, very afraid of that one - unless I play with undeads of course MUHAHAAA!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You appreciated one of my obscure/thematic references. Yes!!! I was feeling so . . . misunderstood. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now if only someone would laugh at one of my jokes my confidence in my ability to use english (I'm a native english speaker) would rise immensly. I thought the one about Alex Poger being the head cultist in a Cuthulloid plot was funny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

cheers

Keir

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I meant the formula for calculating the area of fear or spell affect - how the area of spell effect translates into squares on the battle map.

Thanks for the fear stacking info Johan. It is as I feared. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Now time to stop posting and get testing.

Cheers

Keir

[ November 08, 2003, 03:42: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Life after Death Blessing oddities
 

what about the terror spell? Johan, do you remember if there is a penalty to the morale check?