Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

I realize that they are costly (500G), but their stats are outrageous. In fact, they are as powerful as some of the high-level summons (they have more hit points than an Arch-devil and are stronger as well). Should a unit that can be built this strong? They are practically demigods. In fact, they are stronger than many gods if you elevate one to prophet.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

My first impression of them is that they are almost certain to be exploited as super combatants. They aren't the best chassis on which to build, but they are incredibly available.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

I don't know yet if they are too cheap, but added a few magic itens they can do a lot of damage. I got one once with heroic HP bonus and he was my prophet - a 200 HP monster.

But still, a couple of mages can hit those guys really hard, so I don't know if it's wise to rely on them too much.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

But they are mages, and could do something at your lab. They are useful, but they cost a lot. How much upkeep do they cost?
And, how useful they are as (combat) mages? They can cast quickness to themselves, and to others in late game, but what else?

I think they are good, but it might be better to use most of your income to buy normal Jotun commanders instead. They are sacred, lot cheaper, and can equip those items as well as your Niefel Jarl. But NF does have a better magic resistance. Complicated. And very, very interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

While true that normal jotun commanders are much cheaper (and pretty good impromptu SCs), they do not get the same benefit from such items.

The NJ benefits a lot from a better armor. Even a normal breast plate increase their protection by a good rate (which doesn't happen to the normal jotun commanders). Added an horror helmet they also send the opposition to a rout pretty quick.

But what's really devastating is the breath of winter, which really increases the chill effect. Dozen of enemy troops are frozen to death.

They get a very good protection, possibly regeneration (I don't see anyone using Jarls without nature 9), fear effect and area kill - and all that very early in the game.

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Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

All niefel Giants have an extra powerful chill effect (base area of ca 15 instead of ca 5).

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

Of course, ideally, it would make sense to require armor of the right general size for the creature in question. No fair using human-sized armor on a giant, nor vice versa, and giant-sized armor would require giant-sized amounts of resources.

PvK

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, but then I want to be able to make midget-sized items for my Hoburg strike force! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Boots of the Behemoth... check... with the XXS discount, that will be...

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

Another important detail about the Jarls - they enter the sea and alone are able to take the provinces, very important in games without the aquatic races.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Naturally. Though the trample boots will still only help you against things smaller than yourself...

PvK

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

Curse, Horror Mark, Blindness, Paralysis, Spider Webs and huge masses of troops. There are many ways to kill or screw up a Niefel Jarl.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

are you sure the innate chill effect cumulate with the breath of winter?

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

well we are kinda missing the point from the topic...
imho they are way too strong unless they can easilly get you very boosted start like 3 provinses at turn 3 (inies) i dont see any other doing this

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wondered about this myself in Dom I, after seeing the spell AI cast the spell on its own I decided to follow suit just in case.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

The Jarls are ridicolously strong, compared that they are natural nation units.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

I love my Jarls and I will cry if you take them away, then again at 500 gold each it's not like I can afford many of them.

Sammual

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

I've done extensive testing of regular units, and it seems that Hydras consistently beat Niefel Jarls. In fact, I haven't seen a unit that beats the Hydra from the regular buildable units.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

Pretty sure. The chill becomes visibly stronger and ice protection goes from 100 to 250 (I think that's how chill effect is measured).

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Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

Maybe I play on a harder difficulty of Computer AI and Indies (Difficult AI standard and 7 on Indies).

The Jotun early advantage is kind of nulled in that aspect. Though that is just my perspective.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

Aren't chill effect and Breath of winter two separate things/effects? Chill will cause fatigue and freezing, while BoW will actually cause damage like a cloud spell, if I understand correctly. That would mean that it's worth to cast it with your Jarls to make them even more deadly.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

I wouldn't call them overpowered - more like underhanded. Yes, they have chill and BoW; yes, they have protection; yes, they are *nasty*. But it really balances out in race design.

Funny really: Niefelheim pretender should seriously be designed by terms of one of its leader-units! You can't afford not to take strong bless effects (i.e. nature-9, but is that enough?). That takes muchos DPs.

Niefelheims real mages cost 250gp apiece. Couple that with 500gp of NJ and 150gp per NG... Order-3 anyone? And their magic paths lack the vital elemental paths (except water) to *really* make the NJs rock. And they are starving for indep researchers!

500gp a pop, they are too pricy to be ganged upon and die, which means they WILL get afflictions (which in turn get them killed even quicker). You really can't mix regular units with them as NJs and NGs give chills and BoW kills. So that leaves you Jotun Giants, which get ganged upon easily...

As support mages? Not really.

- Humer

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

I'm starting to think that "Smite" is too strong. I lost an army of a heroic prophet Jarl and 5 giants in +3 cold friendly domain to a few Marginon crossbows and their 5-holy prophet and a mage... Marginon kept paralyzing my giants (hit one with paralyze 30, and one with paralyze 23, both of which seem to Last forever.) 2 got permanently paralyzed, and all the rest got taken out by smite. They were berserked and regenerating, with 66HP and over 23 protection... and smite takes them out in one hit!

I actually won the battle, because all my units died except one who was paralyzed... my army was "routing", but he couldn't move due to permanent paralysis. He regenerated faster than the crossbows could damage him, and had 99 morale. So, after like 20 turns of him just sitting there not being damaged (he was too far away for smite, I guess), I stopped watching, and was surprised to find out I had won the battle, considering I had only a single unit that was paralyzed and routing.

But, yeah... getting my $500 heroic regenerating berserked prophetic jarl and $600 worth of giants nuked in the first few turns by a wimpy prophet... makes me not want to use them anymore=)

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

If you were the defender you probably won because the turn limit attacker auto-retreat or die kicked in. But yeah, a few paralyze spells will knock out niefel giants...of course you could take an astral bless also but then the scales get too bad.

I bet curse then xbows would mess them up pretty fast too, even with regen.

The real question is whether they allow too fast expansion early. I haven't figured out their proper use yet so I can't really say. I'm much more entertained by vaetti hags + magic 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Research!
And then make the nature ones summon vine men, the blood slavesearch, the astral...cast star fires? or you could make them desperate magic duel fighters...a chance at losing a 55 gold mage for a decent chance of killing a more expensive one? Sneak to his mages and do a mass magic duel with all your astral vaetti. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
And the death are decent skeleton summoners I guess to accompany your stealthy armies.
Plus those new jotun spear huskarls are lovely troops. I couldn't get jotunheim to work before without them.

[ November 13, 2003, 21:39: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

That's the funny thing - I was the attacker, and I routed, and the giant was stuck paralyzed and seemed unable or unwilling to recover. I think to recover from paralysis you have to roll higher than the paralyze number... I'm not really sure. It doesn't go down from turn to turn as I would expect.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

Maybe you finally broke free? I have a mystery fight too where apparently my paralyzed great mother broke free and won after all my troops routed somehow, even though all troops routing would cause her to rout too. I think i saved the turn in case I decide to watch the whole absurdly long fight. Paralysis seems really effective to me.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yah, paralyze is wicked wierd...

I was trying to take out Marg, and they kept on paralyzing my Great Mother! Nothing I could do, and she'd be stuck that way for the entire battle. It never seemed to fail either... Oh well good counter to the big SCs I guess, as long as you have enough high strength dudes to finish them off or whatnot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Stupid Ulm... doesn't get any decent astral pretenders for the bless either... unless you want an imobile http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

The paralyze number shown on a unit is the number of turns the paralyzation Lasts. Most paralyzing effects Lasts a couple of turns but the spell (beeing almost as powerful as soul slay - you don't die when you win) Lasts for 25-30 turns.

Re: Are Niefel Jarls too strong?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I just noted in the berzerking units thread. he went berserk and fought on his own - normal rules of routing do not apply when the unit goes berserk. So once he finally unfroze, and managed to get his hands on some of those annoying crossbowmen, it was enough to chase them away.