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Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
He keeps getting blinded & it's not hard to do since he's only got one eye. Opinions?
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Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
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Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
perhaps as the Arco pretender then, but you still have the infamous Natajara at 0 design points.
You also have the faery queen which could give him his vision now, and the Queen is open to any proposition (from anybody having nature that is) |
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But isn't there only one Faery Queen? If so, what if the other player summons her first?
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Who said that there is only 1 fairy queen?
You can summon as much as you want, but they are expensive. |
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There are also ways to steal commanders. Thats actually one of my favorite tactics. I love to setup a lab with one 5-air mage and half a dozen 2-blood mages. The air mage does that tornado spell or whatever its called that snags a commander from whatever province you tell it, then the blood mages all have their initial attacks set for that change-sides spell (hellbind?). I would target whatever province I was about to attack just to weaken it (troops without commanders automatically rout). It was like opening a gift every turn to see what they got me. A useful commander? mage? priest? sometimes even a prophet and once a pretender god. What items did they bring with them that I get to redistribute? From what I see glancing thru all the new units in the AllView game, there are alot more things that can turn someone to their side. Im not sure how and when those units enter the game but its one of the things I was interested to note. |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
I was always under the impression that a magic item (dont recall its name) thats shaped like an eye can restore (improve) sight when blinded.
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Well, he's still the cheapest way to get Earth 9 and get all those blessed bonuses - +4 reinvig is great for holy commanders especially holy spellcasters (pythium, Abysia, Vanheim, etc), and the +4 armor will make some nations HI near invulnerable to normal attacks.
If you want to use him as a tank, either get him a ring of regeneration or research regeneration (need to make him a Nature mage though) and then try it. Should make the chance of an affliction low enough to give it a go. Even blind, he does a great job of holding the line and certain artifacts can make him an effective blind killing machine (Charcoal shield being the most popular). I'd rate him as a little on the expensive side, but if you want the bonuses it's the way to go. On a tight map he may be a good choice for the great start potential + affordable bless effects |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
I don't believe there's any blindness-curing item. There are so many that I can't be sure, but I don't recall any such thing at the moment.
There is, however, a missile weapon that seeks out the target's eyes. Nasty piece of work! |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
There's also an "Eye Shield", which is even worse. But I never take a cyclops anymore... I tried one once in Dominions II to see if it was better, but no. Got blinded on the third battle, taking maybe 2 points of damage. Though being blinded wasn't very bad, I mean even with Earth 9 and shooting approximately five hundred million flying shards, the cyclops couldn't hit anything before he lost his eye=)
Still, a blind cyclops is about as useful as a rainbow mage that's died twice... and in Dominions II, even a seeing cyclops is pretty impotent. But if you do use one, give him nature-2 and don't even think about fighting until he gets a ring of regeneration, some armor, and a long weapon. Haha... now that I said that, I'm tempted to go try it=) Bye! -Cherry |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
Heh. Then there's Vision's Foe... I wonder whether this is an artifact, or very powerful item, or whatnot. In the right hands (Firbolg, with Eye of Aiming, Boots of Speed...) sounds like a Cyclop's nightmare.
The Eye Shield requires that the Cyclops hit the shield carrier. The arbalest only needs to get in range. Get him an air-shield item, I guess, in addition to the regeneration, and avoid those lizard shamans or anybody else with Curse/Doom. |
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I was able to make a few Vision's Foe in the demo so it's not an artifact; though I can't remember offhand the exact sphere(s) you needed in order to create it. Probably Air/Earth.
It and the other crossbows with a high precision works almost too well with attack orders of "large monster" to waste those precious Ice Devils and Behemoths. I don't know if it's too well for the cost or not; since my only MP experiance with it are on my end using it against others. |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
Can't a blinded Cyclops replace his lost eye with a "Vision" artifact ? Then you've got a kind'o Terminator-Cyclops.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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I assume you rushed to construction 4... then spent a turn making his kit. |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
Well, I played kind of sillilly. I went Machaka because they have virtually every path, and put Earth 6 Air 4 Nature 4 on my cyclops. And first I researched Alteration and Enchantment for personal regeneration, air shield, mirror image, and stoneskin (which I later found is not useful). I gave him a Black Iron Shield, Black Iron Plate, Thorn Spear, Boots of Behemoth, Burning Pearl, and Cat Charm.
Then, with my cyclops running around, I researched construction and eventually (by turn 20 or so) gave him a Shield of Valor (for Air Shield), Ring of Regeneration, Pendant of Luck, Battle Shroud (5 prot, no encumbrance, and I wrongly thught it would make him blessed - also, I had no astral-2 mages for robe of shadows), Horror Helm, and he kept the boots and spear. With this combo, he started with regeneration, protection 30, air shield, luck, and had a length-4 poisonous weapon. So in battle he cast Mirror Image and Mistform and then just ran around trampling things=) The only time he ever got hurt was from a hydra poison cloud or bite (and only survived by casting heal on himself a lot - the poison did about 15 damage per turn), but he could wade through scores of knights, heavy cavs, heavy infantry, longbows, and take out 150+ size javelin-tossing LI/MI armies with no problem. Even when he passed out from fatigue, nothing could hurt him. Eventually, I got Summon Earthpower (good for reinvigoration) and Blade Wind, and Strength of Gaia (reduces encumbrance, I think, and also increases HP regeneration speed - maybe). So, once I got blade wind he was already 4-star with 200+ kills, but it was still fun to watch him annihilate armies much faster. And if they got too close, he cast shock wave and everything near him just vaporized=) With Eagle Eyes his precision went to 20 so blade wind was awesome at long range, but at close range, it only lands on a single square (there should be a minimum spread for spells). If I had it to do over, I'd give him a robe of shadows, and give him fire instead of nature or air, to get Fire Shield. Not that he needed any improvements... the main problems were fatigue and elemental/poison resistances, but against AI weaknessess aren't as critical. It was quite funny to watch him pass out from fatigue, and have that never be any sort of problem... except he had to pause in his slaughter until he dropped to 99 or 98 fatigue again=) |
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It's surprising how well any mage that can cast blade wind several times with good accuracy does against indys. Put them in back and cast it. You can rack up 200 kills really really easy with such a pretender. In fact if indys are high enough you could probably get 200 after 5 fights. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
Mythologically speaking, a gigantic Cyclops is supposed to be that effective. You have to have a hero, a god, or an item of great magical power to destroy them (in mythology).
In competitive MP play, my plan would have been pretty bad since I didn't start expanding until turn 10, all my money went to mages rather than armies, and I didn't do any site-searching until late. Furthermore, the Cyclops would've been toasted by Smite, Paralyze, Blind, Black Bows of Beotulf, Spring Hawks, any Lightning spell, or any number of other magical attacks. As it was, I still had a pretty hard time because I could destroy any enemy army, but there were more enemy armies than I had Cyclopses... and Machaka defense is WORTHLESS. That's another thing - I think Machaka defense should either get more militia, or warriors instead of militia, or militia and archers. A big group of naked Machaka militia is just free experience=) |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
I also thought the Mach militia to be pretty worthless, until I saw them reliably disease virtually every enemy heavy hitter they attacked. Of course, they have to live/'not route' long enough to make a couple of attacks, but it can be real nice when they do. The province will be lost but it can be real easy to retake in a few turns and a further enemy offensive can be severely hindered.
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Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
What, do Machaka militia all have Ebola, or were you just lucky with your battle afflictions? Militia is good against Jotuns, but not against heavy cavs, archers, or normal infantry... in my experience. And since warriors cost barely more money and negligible resources, and archers are virtually the same cost-wise... I can't imagine making militia. Until my mod comes out and they drop to 4 gold apiece.
Was the disease thing luck, or is that supposed to happen? [ November 15, 2003, 17:39: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ] |
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[ November 15, 2003, 17:39: Message edited by: Nerfix ] |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
Saber,
What was your script like for your Cyclops? I see you talking about him casting a couple of spells, attacking for a while and then casting some more on his own. I'm still new to the game and didn't think you could have such flexibility. Especially having your commander attack, then cast spells, then attack some more. Thanks, V'ger gone |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
The script was at:
(Air Shield), (Personal Regeneration), (Stoneskin), (Mirror Image), attack closest at first. Later, it was: (Summon Earthpower), (Mirror Image), (Mistform), attack closest Eventually, it became: (Summon Earthpower), (Mirror Image), (Mistform), (Eagle Eyes), (Blade Wind), cast spells But you can also do things like this: (Mistform), (attack one round), (Shock Wave), (attack one round), (Shock Wave), attack closest Or, you can leave the final orders blank, and leave it to the AI to decided whether to attack or cast. But even if you tell the unit just to cast spells, he can still trample until he uses his AP up, then cast a spell. Specific scripting cannot go past the first 5 rounds, unfortunately - though I'm hoping we get the "Cast Attack Spells", "Cast Support Spells", and "Cast Summon Spells" orders=) -Cherry P.S. I always put my Cyclops at the way back so he could cast all his spells before being attacked, and at least cast Air Shield and Regeneration before arrows started hitting him. [ November 15, 2003, 18:32: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ] |
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I imagine that the AI was stupid and took a death scale with Jotunheim (reducing supply). Regardless, Jotuns prefer Cold 2, and fighting in Heat 2 would reduce their supply by 40% (I think)...
I always have supply problems when playing Jotunheim, they use 3 each. And the AI is not nearly as good as a human at avoiding supply problems... and if a units starves 2 turns in a row, it gets diseased. So I assume the diseases came from the AI keeping its armies in low-supply provinces rather than from the Machaka militia. I find it is a very good idea to put high defense in a low-supply province - then the enemy has to commit a large force to take it, and they starve. Well, unless they have a Cyclops or Blade Wind (or both)=) [ November 15, 2003, 22:55: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ] |
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It does seem to track that the Jotunheim diseases were contracted due to supply problems between their first and subsequent offensives, rather than to anything occuring during the battles. Thank you for your insights, Saber Cherry.
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Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
There are multiple "bionic eye" items which could be good for a cyclops. I haven't tested whether they make a cyclops immune to blindness or not, but usually they cause a "lost an eye" affliction, unless you've already lost an eye. I have used them on commanders who had lost an eye in Dominions I, since it wouldn't do them any more harm. I never saw such a commander suffer the "lost the other eye" affliction, but I wasn't trying... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
It'd be interesting if such eyes could cure blindness, but would also have a chance to be destroyed on subsequent eye hits. For all I know, that's how it works... PvK |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
The low-level eye of aiming does not help a blind commander - I know that much. So, don't put one in your Cyclops!
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There is no such effect for two magic hearts (can't have more than one chest wound). Quote:
Can anyone who has the full Version test how magic eyes work for the new Allfather pretender for Vanheim (who, I have heard, starts out missing an eye - but doesn't get any wisdom in exchange, AFAIK. He should at least get a research bonus, higher MR, or something!) - i.e., does the first magic eye go in his empty eye socket, or does he put out his good eye to put it on? No one has mentioned yet the trick of equipping assassins with magical eyes and sending them against the Cyclops - in Dom I he would often find the magic eye on the assassin's body, put out his own eye, and put the magic eye in its place. In my opinion, whenever a leader finds an item that curses, horror marks or diseases the bearer, causes an affliction when equipped (eyes and hearts), or can't be removed once equipped, it should be sent to the lab. Perhaps even all salvaged items should be sent to the item treasury (instead of being equipped on the finder) - that would be preferable to the current system. Otherwise, we'll just see more "assassins" with bane venom charm (or fever fetish, or rod of the leper king), knife of the damned, eye of aiming (if you're going against a Cyclops), and possibly black heart (if it wasn't an assassin to begin with) - in addition to the medallion of vengeance, of course. I don't mind (much) losing a commander to an assassin with rod of the phoenix, bane blade, or some other powerful item that kills my commander - or even to summoning assassins (skeleton talisman, lifelong protection, empoisoners or other death mages using Raise Skeletons). Or having them permanently weakened by an assassin with a Flesh Eater, Black Bow of Botulf, or now Vision's Foe. But I do mind having a commander (or prophet, or pretender) crippled by a failed assassination attempt because he imprudently looted the assassin's corpse and put on cursed items. Any non-mindless being should know better than to wear a Bane Venom Charm (unless lifeless or undead), or put out its one eye for an Eye of Aiming. |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
Two eyes of aiming does indeed cause blindness. I was leading my abysian armies with demonbred mass equipped with eyes of aiming, and when one of my demonbred died, one of the less bright of his fellow demonbred blinded himself to put in another eye of aiming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif I think items going to the lab would be nice, or even going to a "pack" that would need to be added that would allow commanders to carry cursed items for other commanders without having to put them on. As it is you can't have something without equipping it which isn't always optimal.
[ November 16, 2003, 21:35: Message edited by: LordArioch ] |
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Cursed items are supposed to be found and grabbed by unwary commanders that later gets attached to them and refuses to give them away. Do you think Smeagol was the ideal finder of the ring? It is a bit strange though when applied to magical eyes. |
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Cursed items are supposed to be found and grabbed by unwary commanders that later gets attached to them and refuses to give them away. Do you think Smeagol was the ideal finder of the ring? It is a bit strange though when applied to magical eyes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the ring was an artifact. I can understand this kind of thing happening to cursed artifacts - although even then, I think an MR save to realize the danger of picking it up might be appropriate; Gandalf (the LotR one, not the one from these Boards) refused the ring when it was offered to him. But knives of the damned or bane venom charms shouldn't have that kind of compulsion. (And of course magical eyes and hearts.) BTW - in Dom II are there any magical replacement arms (since there is a lost arm affliction now)? It would be kind of cool to have a replacement arm with a grafted-on weapon of some sort - but you have to cut off an arm to put it on, unless you are already missing one. |
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I like the arm thing. A silver arm of celtic origin springs to mind.
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And peg legs!
The peg leg of pirate origin! |
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Or prosthetic hooks.
I like the idea of a MR check to resist getting trapped by harmful items. Seems like items that require surgery should be a special case, and perhaps some others - not all harmful items need be traps. How about a new item: Geegaws of Contentment These magic-looking trinkets are forged to content foolish underlings, so they don't go looking for potentially-trapped magic gear. They don't actually offer any magical effects, but the user has +1 morale because he thinks he's well-equipped. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif PvK |
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IMHO it would be cool to expand the gem case to allow one to carry magic items. Found items would go there, except that if one failed a MR save then cursed items might be equipped (possibly even forcibly swapping out current equipment). |
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With regards to prosthetic limbs -- "Groovy."
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Followed by several shotgun bLasts... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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This thread was just hilarious! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
It's a good thing we have magic eyes and hearts. |
Re: Is Cyclops worth it as a pretender god?
Golden left foot
This powerful artifact grants its owner an ability to throw globes of compressed air at the opponents with an amazing precision. Globes cause stun damage to anyone who is hit. His inclination to demonstrate this uncanny talent in his free time decreases unrest in the province he resides in, and the artifact also grants the owner an ability to inspire awe in lesser mortals (awe-3). He also has a small chance to attract Maenads (female humans who fight with *claws* when enraged). The downside is that it lowers its owner's pain threshold, and he is more prone to get afflictions. His leadership skills are also decreased, since his comrades dislike his tendency to hug his brothers-in-arms every time he manages to hit someone with one of the globes. [ November 18, 2003, 01:44: Message edited by: HJ ] |
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Maybe an iron one available just to replace a missing limb (and perhaps boost strength +1 or so?) with a bit of Construction research, but a unique Version of silver that not only replaces the arm but gives more substantial (+2 to all) boosts to strength, attack, and defense? That really is an interesting concept, just from the role-playing stance: being able to forge "replacement parts" for afflicated characters. They shouldn't be cheap, may come with problems (shock vulnerability for an iron arm?), but it would be a really cool bit of flavor. Maybe they'd only be open to the Golem Cult, Ulm, and/or other such master smith types. That might even be the thing to make Ulm a bit more competitive, if they alone should have access to these wonders of smithcraft. Ever think about adding the Gae Bulga? An awesome weapon, an unstoppable killer usuable only once per combat (since the body had to be cut away from the points to retrieve it) that has a geas upon it that leads to a Curse being placed on its wielder? Not quite the same as the real thing, but I can't think how to do the "somebody you will love will die" thing into game mechanics. |
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If anyone needs help it's Ulm. And if that advantage is crafting, so be it.
Perhaps the Silver Arm will allow the Smith/Hero to craft items of certain other spheres while not having the magic spheres. I.E. Giving 5 spheres for purposes of crafting to non-earth Spheres. That would allow them crafting diversity (which Ulm LACKS) but not the spells that are behind it. Just a thought. |
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ROFL!!! That made my whole evening!!!
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That story about the head of Vecna is hilarious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I would like to think that not all of us would act like that however. In Dominions, I find that some things can cause me a lot of grief, because simply acting marginally more sensibly would avert the disaster that turns an otherwise wellplayed game into a losing battle. Purposefully (automatically) doing things that cause permanent wounds is one such thing (if you are relying on that SC or pretender). The eyes and hearts, etc., were never intended to be used as cursed items. I hope that the game designers will implement the found item going to the laboratory. This should included such items as the arena death match trident, which is also automatically equipped, and cannot be unequipped. Feel free to implement true cursed items, but make it by design, and allow a remove curse spell (costing astral gems?) to destroy or remove the curse / cursed item. /Rainbow |
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Ow. My chest hurts from laughing at the Head of Vecna thing.
And I think Cherry has a point. Ripping out your own eye to put in an Eye of Aiming you took out of a smashed corpse is pretty extreme, even for the Dominions world. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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