So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

When I 1st got the demo and played, I thought Ulm and Jotunheim were powerful because of their powerful melee units. A dozen Niefel Giants or Templars could run over conventional armies 7-8 times their size.

But I am finding that both nations have troubles in the real game in the late game stage. When you get to 80-100 plus turns, magic begins to really rule the game, and Ulm seems to start to lag really badly. I have also played Jotunheim a lot, and they also seem to be having problems v. nations with lots of magic (and Ermor) due to the fact that you can't field that many magical or priestly commanders due to their cost.

I've been playing with Marignon the Last few hours, and they seem a bit more balanced.

What are people finding so far in terms of nation balances? Has any nation been found to be particularly strong, weak, or well-rounded?

[ November 18, 2003, 03:53: Message edited by: Joonie73 ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Hmmm. I really like Man in early game. Mass longbows, and then a few nights to clean up. But I suspect they will become weaker as the game goes on due to their weak magic and weak priests.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I just finished a game playing R'leyh and it seemed like they were UNBELIVEABLY powerful. Illithids are vastly improved- I destroyed Mictlan's pretender titan (gold shield male Version), a priest king, 10 slaves and 13 warriors with a force of just 5 illithids and 17 hybrid troopers (the smaller ones with high morale and really low resource cost)! Each turn mictlan basicly lost 5 of its highest hp warriors until only slaves were left, which promptly routed. Possibly the ultimate counter to early game SCs.

Also, has anyone checked out some of the INSANE monsters they can summon using void gate? I just popped out a Vastness on turn 40... Good lord. It's a freaking monster! It moves anywhere it wants, is pretty much impossible to kill and causes enemy troops to die merely by being near them. AWESOME! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

To be fair, there are a lot of junk monsters that your mages can summon as well (those immobile tentacle plants, for example). But the Vastness is just... WOW. It's like a demon lord, but free, and faster. To be fair, my dominion was luck 3 and the hero void searching was exp. level 9, so its not probable that you'd turn up a Vastness early in the game and cruise to a cinch victory.

Still, R'leyh seems amazing.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

But they are still ugly squid-looking thingies, LOL.

I met Illithids with Ulm and got my templars wasted as well. But I re-designed my pretender to go up to 6 astral (giving my templars +2 magic resistance) and then there the Illithids were less of a problem. But mass mind bLast could still be problematic.

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Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So they no longer get owned by Atlantis?

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I have a demo game as Arco where I started out weak on purpose, and have been slowly losing to Marignon AI. My pretender died trying to trample a squad of a dozen crossbowmen who wouldn't rout, and he was sort of a rainbow pretender, who now has essentially zero magic. Is there a strength to Arco that I might not have noticed? I'm planning to continue the game in the full Version once it arrives (should be later this week), but as it is, I'm starting to consider building a fortress to block Marignon and then trying to expand under water to avoid having to fight them until I can come up with something better than Arco units to fight with. I'm also considering empowering an Astrologer or some such instead of my pretender, since they now have more magic than my pretender. It should be challenging, anyway, but any Arco hints would be appreciated. Arco seems to have trouble with an enemy who, like Marignon, fields crossbows and heavy cavalry on the flanks (which steamroller chariots or light cav that might go for their crossbowmen).

PvK

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.

That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;

Abysia - Slow starter, but good endgame. Blood magic ramps up nice. Don't underestimate the Warlocks.

Abysia, Blood of Humans - Weak. I don't like it. The full game doesn't seem to be enforcing scales like the demo. A change between Versions? Even so, there's nothing that gets my attention.

Atlantis - Like the defense of starting underwater. Like the Dagon. Good magics. A strong nation from start to finish.

Pythium - Good troops and good magic. Even without "Gateway V.1" Pythium still has lots of what it takes to win, and no real weakness.

Pythium, Serpent Cult - The Hydra's can be abused with the new bless effects. However the magics are weak. I don't like having all eggs in one basket. It's got power, but weakness as well. Not as good as regular Pythium. IMHO.

Man - Good fast expansion. Nice spells. Crones still rock. Stronger than Dom1. Now a real contender.

Man, Last of the Tuatha - Not bad, but I like the crones better than the Tuatha mage selection.

Ulm - Was second rate in Dom1 and may be thrid rate in Dom2. Smiths now very weak. Total lack of ability to handle super combants will make life hard on multiplayer Ulm.

C'tis - Death magic not hammered as bad as other paths. C'tis comes out way ahead compared to Dom1. More complex than some other nations, but there is potency in the Dom2 lizards.

C'tis, Desert Tombs - The theme is expensive. Takes a bit too long to ramp up the free summons. I think I could do better undead work using the Sauromancers from regular C'tis. It's a cute theme, and it might have a place in low resource scenarios... but in general I'd say it's not a top competitor.

C'tis, Miasma - I don't like the mashmaster. The disease effect isn't strong enough to matter much. I prefer the regular theme.

Arcoscephale - Good troops. Elephants rock. Good magic. Always a contender.

Caelum - Mammoths rock. Even without air elementals, the high seraphs are great. The mobility of the flyers will be stronger than in Dom1 due to the slower strategic moves of many enemy troops. Some weakness versus super combatants, however the sheer speed of Caelum may make it a terror in multiplayer.

Caelum, Return of the Raptors - I don't like losing air magic in favor of a tidbit of death magic. I don't see any real advantage in this theme over the regular caelum. The Raven Guard are nice, but not enough to convice me to drop the air magic.

Ermor, Broken Empire - This is a meaty theme! It's got good troops. It's got evil priests summoning undead. Very playable.

Ermor, Ashen Empire - I.E. DomI Ermor. This Ermor's dominion always attracts heat in multiplayer. In Dom1 Ermor could field a serious super combatant when others couldn't imagine doing the same. Now it's not so unique. Also the new bless/sacred system will encourage players to have lots of priest power floating around. I don't like Ashen Empire for multiplayer. It's great for single play, as the computer AI can't handle the deadly dominion.

Ermor, Soul Gate - So far this looks similar to Ashen Empire, just using incorporeal undead instead of skeltons/zombies. If someone can find a reason for this theme... let me know.

Marignon - All things considered I think Marignon is stronger in Dom2. Not hugely, but enough. It's good, but not great.

Marignon, Diabolical Faith - I don't like that it requires a minium Turmoil +1 and Heat +1. The access to blood magic is sweet, but the economic hardship is rough. I'll pass on this theme.

Marignon, Fires of Faith - Heat +1, yuk. Just to get the effect of a level-1 priest preaching in your provinces? Is there something that I'm missing? Doesn't work for me.

Pangaea - Weaker troops but much better magic. This looks to be pretty dedicated to the maenad theme. Could be OK. Doesn't leap out at me.

Pangaea, Carrion Woods - Pumping carrion creatures is about as effective as the meanad theme. Better quality, fewer numbers. It's alright.

Pangaea, New Era - Stronger troops, but less magic than other Pangaean themes. Very nice ground pounders. Some weakness versus super combatants. Not quite a top contender, but solid.

Vanheim - Loss of lesser air elementals hurt Vanhiem more than others air Users. Valks fly. It's got air and earth magic. Not sure if the new sacred/bless system helped the Van. All said and done, Vanheim is good, but not great. Unless I'm missing something.

Vanheim, Helheim - A bit of death magic? Nah. Does nothing for me.

Vanhiem, Midgard - Level 2 astral mage. Air 2 mage with 2 random picks (for 160 gold). Yummy! I like this theme. No valks though. I think this is the strongest Vanheim theme.

Jotunheim, Iron Woods - Effectively this is the "goblin" theme. Bleh. Nothing to see here.

Jotunheim, Neifelheim - Big freaky giants! A potential super combatant that I can buy for gold. Nice! This theme has some potential.

Jotunheim, Utgard - Siethkona. Real death magic. Some astral also. Probably the most well rounded Jotunhiem theme. This is the theme I would play right now. Strong.

R'lyeh - Much more "Cthulhu" flavor than Dom1. Protected water start. Looks like the mind bLasts are dangerous this time around. I need more practice with this new theme. It's got potential. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mictlan - Free slaves. They're garbage, but hey, it's *free* garbage. Blood magic, nice. Good, but expensive access to magic paths. The eagle warriors interest me. I need to do some work with Mictlan before real judgement... but right now I like what I see. It's a complex nation. If you are new to the game, move along.

T'ien Ch'i - I like the diverse military. Magic is a bit weak, but has interesting summons. It's at least good. Possibly more...

T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn - Requires turmoil +1. Has weaker military but stronger magics than regular theme. Not as interesting, to me. The forced turmoil is too harsh.

T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings - Better military... but turmoil +2. Weak economics self-defeats the improved military. No interest from me.

Machaka - Diverse troops. Outstanding assassins. The magic is a bit weak, but adequate. Good, but not great. Lot's of fun though. Can't beat giant spiders for sheer smile factor.


That's my preliminary thoughts. More details as I discover them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>Is there a strength to Arco that I might not have noticed?

* Hoplites
* Elephants
* Astrologers casting soul slay
* Priestesses can heal pretenders afflictions!
* Mystics are great for forging items
* Late in game, communion allows magic mayhem
* The Nataraja

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Elephants and Mammoths are like quarter of their former cost effectines in Dom II... They get fried by Curse, Decay, Drain Life and anything that targets big hp creatures and Illithids on "Target big monsters", and they just cost too much with the new economy. I haven't built a single Elephant with Arco in Dom II because i have found that putting my money on Hoplites or Cavalry is more cost effective.

I can find a reason to use Soul Gate in Mp...
Ruining other players games. I don't know how effective the incorpereal undead critters are, but having ethereal boogeymen from the start is just... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Just add furious expansion and some nation who has tad weak magic like poor Ulm and there you go.

Besides, don't ya hate it when you find a 0 pop Farmlands province, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 18, 2003, 06:46: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

The only thing mentioned that would concern me is the Illithids. So I would ease up if I anticipated conflict with R'lyeh.

Otherwise I find the Elephants/Mammoths to be essential for fast expansion. In fact, more than in Dom1.

Everyone has a different style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I got frustraded with the Elephants/Mammoths in Dom I when every time i met a mage with 1 death he bLasted my 'Phants/'Moths with Decay.

I find them to be unreliable(weak morale, almost every indy mage can screw them) and too expensive(with the Dom II economy).

But hey, everyone has their own style...

[ November 18, 2003, 06:53: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

You can have a leader hold for a number of turns then retreat. Just (No army) Elephants geared towards the rearmost will run for the back of the army trampling; then when their morale fails, run backwards through the middle of the enemy trampling more. You rarely lose an elephant unless he gets caught by webs or vines.

If that commander is a Priestess of Arco you can have her cast sermon of courage to get another round or two out of your elephant or you have one sitting in your retreat province they can heal them and have them do another go next turn. Free attrition.

At least thats how I've tried to get my mammoths to work.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Just keep all your elephants in one unit and add in some hoplites. The numbers plus the hoplite morale will bolster the elephants. Throw in a priestess to cast sermon of courage (and heal afflictions if they get bad). Works like a charm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

You can also put a non routing scripted commander in the top left or bottom left corner or your position screen and have him hold/cast spells (if it's not a priest(ess) and if/when the mammoths/elephants rout they won't run him over since they run in a straight line.

Also what Alex said http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . High numbers of hard to kill units will make the unit have a greater moral. Then of course Sermon of Courage/Fanatism... Also nature Users have a spell called "Berserkers" which works like a charm for Elephant/Mammoth patrols.

Not to step on your toes Alex http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can't understand why you don't like him. 40 more gold for the extra magic seems correctly priced to me. He's much more flexible than the Sauromancer, who's basically a one-trick pony (although a good one at it, I admit). The MM doesn't raise skels as effectively, but at least you don't need communion anymore to use effective nature magic on the battlefield. Low-level nature spells like Touch of Madness are great on Elite Warriors or Falchioners.

IMO, the real downside of Miasma is the inability to recruit independent mages, and (to a lesser extent) the limited choices of pretenders (have to pick a cold-blooded, undead or immortal one).

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeap, awesome nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Abysia kicks some *** too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I got my copy yesterday and played for about 10 hours. The balance between nations is great.

I thought I was going to clean up with my heavy Bless Giants but they started to stall mid game and are now on the defensive from high level magic.

I tried Ermor (Ashen whatever) and WOW did I have a lot of points to spend. I was SHURE I was going to clean house. I had a pretender with 9 Death, 4 in everything but Fire and Air (1 in each of them). I was able to get off to a great start (And find a LOT of sites) but I started to stall when my Domain started to get countered. Now Every offense is expensive as all the nations around me have a lot of Priests and they are attacking with Priests and Seasonal Creatures (They just EAT low level undead). I am still winning but it is one hell of a fight now.

Sammual

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

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Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>I don't like the mashmaster

>>Can't understand why you don't like him. 40 more gold for the extra magic seems correctly priced to me. He's much more flexible than the Sauromancer, who's basically a one-trick pony (although a good one at it, I admit).


You hit the nail on the head. I prefer that my primary national mage be top notch in one skill rather than OK in a few.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Note what he said as far as <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Keep in mind that this is a deep and balanced game. If there was an obviously strongest nation then it would not be a well-done game.

A) a nation is strong if it matches the players style. If you want to play like a tank-commander then take ulm. If you tend to prefer research and magic then try Arcosphale. If you like air-dropped invasions try Man. If you like CIA secret armys try Pangaea.

B) a nation is weak if its strong points are ones you dont really use.

C) it can be a rude awakening in your first few multiplayer games to discover that your "weak" nations are someone elses "strongest" nations.

In Dom1 we went thru a LONG and enjoyable process of declaring certain nations to be too strong or unbalanced, then discovering that the balance was already there but in another nation we hadnt played seriously yet. I think the Devs had a great time waiting and watching for us to discover these.

We started saying "if you THINK its too strong then search for the response" and also that "if you think its weak and worthless then get creative in how it might be used".
EVENTUALLY we did find some things that we just couldnt balance out and tweaks showed up in patches for those. But it was a long way off from where we thought we had found such things. Personally I think its abit early to judge.

Some specialize in testing the "too strong" stuff. I like to concentrate on finding something interesting about the "who would ever choose this" stuff.

But that was a great list. One persons list (dont like Pangaeas default huh? hee hee hee). But everyones list will be different. Thats the great thing about this game.

[ November 18, 2003, 15:20: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

My pleasure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


>If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

That's a tough call at this point. I'll give it a shot, with the disclaimer that the list will likely change as we become more experienced with the new game. Also keep in mind that I am looking at this from a distinctly multiplayer point of view.


Unreserved thumbs up:
Pythium
Man
Arcoscephale
Caelum


Potent:
Atlantis
Jotunheim, Utgard
Jotunheim, Neifelheim
R'lyeh
C'tis
Mictlan
Abysia
Machaka
Pythium, Serpent Cult
Vanhiem, Midgard

Solid:
T'ien Ch'i
Ermor, Broken Empire
Man, Last of the Tuatha
C'tis, Desert Tombs
C'tis, Miasma
Caelum, Return of the Raptors
Marignon
Pangaea
Pangaea, New Era
Pangaea, Carrion Woods
Vanheim
Jotunheim, Iron Woods

Slightly weak:
Ulm
Abysia, Blood of Humans
Ermor, Ashen Empire
Ermor, Soul Gate
Vanheim, Helheim
T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn


Questionable:
Marignon, Diabolical Faith
Marignon, Fires of Faith
T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Apoger, Arcos as one of the strongest nations? That is very surprising. I don't see any huge upside for them except their battle affliction-healing priestesses.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Arco's get Elephants, Cheap Hoplites, Priestesses (of course), Mystic (Blood anyone?), and Astrologer with 3 in Astral plus a random and of couse they get the Natarajah pretender (Caelum too; I think Alex likes the Natty a little too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

They have huge advantages if you play certain strategies and are solid performers all around. Even Last night when I tried a Turmoil 3, Luck 3 Crossbreedothon/Lucky Arco they were able to pump out very decent armies (with -21% Income no less) and mystics/astro/priestess's every turn.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Arcosphale has always been a strong nation for those who want powerful magics for late-game. As the strongest in this area I always felt they should have been alittle weaker in the troops. Its always been difficult NOT to rank them number one game-winner in the multiplayer modes.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>I think Alex likes the Natty a little too much


The combination of Arco's ability to forge various items, healing for afflictions, extra hand slots, and zero cost, make the Nataraja a superb pretender choice.

I give it four thumbs up! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

You know what would make Ulm a LOT stronger, and make perfect sense? Their heavy arbalests are currently semi-worthless, since they take massive resources to produce and are one of the few units capable of easily damaging Ulm units. To make matters worse, they only fire every 3 rounds.

But Ulm is weak against magic... so what if heavy arbalests got the "Air Shield Piercing" ability? A gust of wind is much more likely to knock down a light, feathered, aerodynamic arrow than a dense arbalest bolt. With this, Ulm would have some reason to build its crossbowmen, and a good defense against pesky armor-negating air mages.

"Air Shield Piercing" should half the Air Shield effect, by the way, not negate it.

-Cherry

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

AP's got a lot of good info in there - thanks for that Alex! But I gotta dissent on the Miasma - not only is it a lot of fun, but it seems to be pretty useful in MP.

The +% income is nice - it cancels out the heat scale gold loss, and a slightly warmer is better with C'tis anyway. Especially with the season's shifting the weather around some anyway, at least +2 heat for C'tis is most likely the real sweet spot for them lizards.

Sure Marshmasters are -1 death then the Sauromancer, but the +1 nature +1 water gives them so many more uses. Can't reanimate the dead as effortlessly, but they will get quickness guaranteed, any of them can cast Foul Vapours with an extra gem (and now C'tis is 50% posion immune, so this is usable right away in large battles), and you start with the Summon Bog Beasts spell (as soon as you get a +2 water MM, start cranking them out - only 5 nature gems for 3 of them with only 1 mage turn used). MMs with 3 nature are excellent for Relief/Charm etc without items, so mid game your potential for never-tiring magic Users is really high. And better site searching to boot, so I really prefer MMs over SMs.

The disease effect is not going to wipe out whole armies in a turn, but it will hurt quickly and make them think about it twice right away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If you have the choice of attacking C'tis knowing that your troops are going to get diseased or moving against someone else, I imagine most will go for the other. Couple Miasma with a nice defence castle, and sitting on top of an enemy castle is suicidal so any stall will be extra costly. Just the risk of a supercombatant pretender getting diseased early will likely stop some unwanted visits...

Also, the disease effect is pretty potent against the indies - in a province in your dominion, by turn 10 they will be significantly weakened, and mages/priests with lesser HP are the first to go. The softening up of any underwater defences is very handy - even the Amber clan will disease and die and then you can take them with minor losses. By turn 20 any unclaimed indies nearby will likely be decimated by the disease, and you can take them with a token force. In a strong indie game with a good starting dominion, the disease effect will probably be killing off troops faster than you are, and Miasma would be a huge edge in sparsely populated, low resource, high indy games.

Not being able to use most indies is a big drawback, but you don't need too many anyway. With your increased Nature site finding, you should be one of the big contenders for Gift of Health, so that will largely make the disease effect moot. The only real indies C'tis needs are mages (which are rare anyway) and scouts (which are cheap and mainly used outside your dominion), so it isn't too bad.

I need to try it more in larger MP games, but it seems all good to me!

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I have to say, I thought Caelum would be weaker than it was stated (at least all races using an elemental rush) in Dom 1, but I have found it not to be so. They are just less cheesy and require a little more thought to play them out.

They definitely shine with the low cost of Staff of Storms.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One of the great things about Caelum is being able to play "checkers" with the provinces. Jump over the difficult ones to take a weak one. There are pros and cons to the tactic. But it lets you spread fast and makes it hard for people to battle their way to your castle. The "sneak" races have this also but cant provide support-troops as fast. Too many new players try to play everyone as if they were Ulm.

[ November 18, 2003, 18:02: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Yes I like that aspect as well; of course, being able to reinforce and split your armies to do massive multi-pronged attacks is great.

One thing I didn't particularly like is when your Iceclads attack the rear and someone routs, they clog it up and get their panzy asses whacked since the routing army runs right through them and if they are in the way they get hit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Just have to find a way to change that behavior.

[ November 18, 2003, 18:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

A problem with the checkerboard approach though is supply. Without the connections to your depots and the increased consumption of the fliers it will start to hamper you once your armies begin to get sizeable. (and it doesn't take many fliers for that to happen...)

Its still a good approach though, especially when your opponent really isn't prepared for it. You can also use it to wreck your opponents supply lines...

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Just to show how fluid things are right now...

I'm upgrading Ermor [Soul Gate] and Ermor [Broken Empire] to "potent". BE due to the availability of nether dart mages. SG due to a better appreciation of the summons. I like both these themes much more than the Ashen Empire theme.

I still don't like C'tis [Misama]. The extra nature/water doesn't make up for the loss of death specialty IMHO. Furthermore, the incompatibility with indy mages/troops and most pretenders is brutal. On the other hand, if it makes you happy... don't let me stop you from having fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I have to disagree on Pangea Carrion Woods. Reanimiation includes Manikins, Carrion Beasts (which include the Carrion Elephants which can tear through an army).

They have a fast start with their Mino's and War Minos, and of course still have their stealth in the satyr's and Harpies.

Even the Panic apostates being overpriced (320 Gold! 3 Nature, 2 Death) you could field a decent army along with your Carrion Lord(s) Ladies very quickly. The only real downside I can see is their magic resistance; as you are forced to take at least a +1 Magic scale.

I would have to say I've very impressed. GROWTH 3 all the way BABY.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I had no problems using Ulm (Iron Faith) up to turn 40. They certainly had no problem stomping Mictlan, often because Mictlan armies would rout when their slaves started dying. (An idea for an advantage to add to slaves would be to make them not cause morale checks when they die. At least, the AI might be programmed to put them in their own squads to help, although I think it may already be doing that.) I suppose Mictlan probably does much better under human control, and maybe if it does more blood summons.

Meanwhile, as I mentioned elsewhere, my Arco hasn't been doing well against AI Marignon's crossbows, HvInf and HvCav.

These may have a lot to do with my own experience level and play style, though.

Iron Faith Black Priests do get a random magic pick, though, and since they're holy units, they're cheaper than say an Arco Astrologer. The forge bonus can be used to cheaply make items which increase magic power, eventually.

PvK

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but Carrion Woods has a destructive dominion similar to Ashen Empire or Soulgate themes for Ermor, not quite as destructive but in the long run your core provinces will be utterly depopulated.

[ November 18, 2003, 19:14: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I'm sorry Johan. I was being sarcastic. Ah, so much is lost on the internet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I meant the requirement for the Carrion to have at least Growth 1 for the theme, so you don't get too many points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Part of the reason that the Carrion Woods theme is strong is because it is like Ermor; you can just pillage and tax to death everyone in your lands and let the Carrion Lords mop up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif while you make scads of Minos, Harpies and Pans.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Poger,

Also what is the case for Pythium being so strong? They don't even have powerful blessable units (unless you go Serpent)!

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Pythium are the standard.

Low cost Communion slaves, good research, good massive troop armies. Hydra's can be devistating, Theurgs and Arch Theurgs can become tremendously powerful.

Anything with a base mage in the race with Astral 3 can use gateway; which is incredibly strong for quick reinforcement between labs.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>Also what is the case for Pythium being so strong? They don't even have powerful blessable units (unless you go Serpent)!

* Outstanding Infantry
* Gladiators (in multiplayer these guys are very potent defensively)
* Communicants!
* Quickness, Communion, Aim, *Orb Lightning*
* Soul Slay works when Orb Lightning fails
* Hydra are great even when not sacred.
* Arch Theurgs using Communion can lay down almost any battefield spell during the late game
* Arch Theurgs have great mobility from teleport and cloud trapeze [don't underestimate the power of surprise]
* Air and Astral magics simply have a wide scope of usefull spells


You have asked about both Arco and Pythium. I suspect that as a player that is new to the game, you have yet to grasp the awesome potency of Communion. Both Arco And Pythium have great infantry and the potential for outrageous battle magics from abusing Communion. It takes a while with the game before the whole communion thing becomes apparent.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My feeling is that Carrion wood is not particularily strong, if anything I would say it is a weak theme. While it has a strenghts it also have weaknesses. To mention a few:

You do not get as much free summons as Ashen empire, nor do you get the boosted gem income.

Your home province will eventually loose all its pop which will hit your resources severely and keep you from utilising the normal resource heavy troops recruitable in the capital, amongst them the sacred black centaurs. IIRC you cannot build harpies, you just start with one, and can recieve a Arcopythera. Your Panic Apostates are only 30 cheaper than ordinary Pani and have one random less, and do not recieve Meanads.

The effects of the dominion will eventually significantly reduce your income. As long as you manage to keep expanding the theme should do ok, but if you slow down the free summons you get will not offset the income loss.

You will also in multiplayer recieve the same reaction as Ermor, making you a likely target for alliances.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Couls someone briefly explain what communion is & how it works? What makes it so powerful?

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>Couls someone briefly explain what communion is & how it works? What makes it so powerful?

In Brief:

Some mages cast Communion Slave while others cast Communion Master.

The Slaves take the fatigue when the Masters cast spells. This allows a great deal of casting by the Masters.

The Masters also get magic skill bonuses from the Slaves. All skills +1 for 2 Slaves, +2 for 4, +3 for 8, +4 for 16.

For example:
An Arch Theurg (air-2 astral-3, lets say the ? comes in as nature-1) goes into battle.
There are 8 Communicants with him.
The Arch Theurg casts Communion Master.
The Communicants are slaves automatically.
The Arch Theurg is now air-5 astral-6 nature-4.
When he casts spells, he does not fatigue, the slaves soak up the efforts of spellcasting, allowing the Arch Thuerg to use his pumped up ranks over and over again.

More Slaves will absorb more fatigue.
More Masters will gain the full benefits of the Slaves. The Slaves are shared.
The only danger is driving the Slaves fatigue beyond 200, at which point they take damage and die. Burning out the slaves is common in long battles, however it gets you a stunning supply of mage power before they drop.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It may be weak compared to the basic Pan theme; but since I haven't played Dom1 I never knew it. I haven't played it in epic, XXXXXL maps with 17 opponents, so I couldn't tell you on that end.

In a certain mindset; not having anything to look back on is a good thing. Especially midsized games, with opponents who sneak attacks and other underhanded ways to cut off supply lines, but your is mobile. Not as good as Ermor; but I wasn't playing it like Ermor, I was playing it like Undead Pangea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I primarily make Black Harpy flocks (which you can make and I have them in droves cutting supply and starving enemies as well as rearborn mages) and Minos as you lose resources. (Just Mino's, not War Minos since they have 46 Resources)

Also the Black Centaur is a measely 70 Gold, 11 Resource Sacred and with the number of points for a Carrion Wood theme you can make that pretender with good bless effects.

If you are aggressive (Which you should be with this theme) you are overtaking and using new forts to build up your new living troops and throw them in armies with your Manakin's/Mandragora so they never rout and crush through those annoying undead unfriendly units. Also Manikin's regenerate during battle and can tear through provinces quickly when you get started.

Maybe I haven't played enough long games with them or been slowed significantly in order to see that approach. I'll freely admit that I do not know everything; but I would put the theme higher ranking that Alex did simply for the fact of how I have used it.

Maybe I got lucky; and hit quick and fast enough to cause an uproar in my targeted enemies without having a huge domain that caused me to be ganged up on because I was killing others provinces.

War needs no reasons, alliances happen regardless of your actions for the safety blanket. This theme only means you are cut out of most alliances (all except Ermor) unless you have the upper hand.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I like Pangaea default. I appreciate the addition of more sneak units such as more centaurs. Still no assassin but I can push for the blood heart to get that. I dont even recruit any of the units that are non-stealth

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Although I like the theme, and think that idea for it is really great, I agree with the black centaur issue. The fact that they are only buildable in the capitol, that you can only build them in a first couple of turns when you don't have that much money and have other things to spend it on, that you're also limited by the number of sacred troops, and that they will run an additional risk of starvation later on due to the destructive dominion unless commanded by nature mages will make black centaurs rare birds indeed. Maybe if thay are made to be buildable anywhere with fort & temple? I mean, it's not like you will be able to build many of them even in that case, since temple will mean strong dominion resulting in that province getting depopulated pretty soon as well, but it will offer an opportunity to make at least a few of them later in the game.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Tien Chi gets the Nataraja too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And an immortal hero who can heal.

Tien Chi also gets very good heavy cavalry at a reasonable price (25 gold / 28 resource), who can shoot, charge (lance), long spear and a strategic movement of 3. Their heavy infantries and archers (both bow and crossbow!) are also very solid.

The Celestial Master, with only one Astral, is very susceptible to Mind-Duel and is a pain. But at least, the Master of the Way is cheap (100 gold for 2 magic and 2 holy) and recruitable everywhere.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

To me Tien Chi magic seems very... muddled. Examples: The Celestial Masters are best at water magic, though their nation is neither underwater nor cold-loving. Their home province does not provide an income of water gems. One of their national specials is summoning Celestial Soldiers, which requires an Air 2 Astral 1 mage, but they do not have any such mages until/unless a Celestial Master gets his random pick in air. A couple of people have mentioned their national heroes - but another of their national specials is that they get province defence for free in provinces with Order, so it seems natural to want to maximize Order which of course means they are very unlikely to see any of the heroes. In my curent test game, I'm playing them with order +3, I am on turn 19, and have yet to get an event of any kind (random events are rare), much less a hero, although I did take luck +1 partially in hope of seeing them. Celestial masters have intrinsic fire magic, and not intrinsic earth magic, but their home province does not provide a fire gem income while it does provide an earth gem income. The likelyhood that a CM has a lot of paths at 1 but only water at 2 makes them terrible site searchers.

Their most interesting troops are all expensive and hideously resource intensive, making them something of an Ulm of the East. You really want lots of order, lots of productivity and lots of administration, which is going to leave damn few design points for the pretender or anything else.

In short, I have no clue how to play these guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif But I am working on it.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What I remember reading was that your chance of getting heroes is based on luck only and accumulates from turn to turn. With -3 luck no chance, with -2 1% +1% per turn resetting when you get one, with -1 2% pt etc.

Playing +1 luck I have got nationals heroes at a good clip.

Cheers

Keir

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It has been noted previously in relation to Ermor in Dom I that with experianced players an alliance/co-operation with Ermor is viable. With care you can keep Ermors dominion under control - if you are limited neighbours - and if not then having Ermor on the other side of a mutual enemy could work well.

As I pretty much only play no alliance games or scenario's with set/restricted alliances in MP I'm open to limited co-operation (ie leave them alone) with anybody whos growth can furthur my aims. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif If my race has powerful anti-undead capabilities then thats all true twice over - always nice to have the edge over races one is leaving for later. Are you reassured Zen? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

cheers

Keir