Soul gate
 

I've been trying out this theme, and there are a few things I don't quite understand.

1. Spectral weapons require MR check to see whether they hit the target or not. Does this happen in addition to usual comparison between att/def and damage/protection, or instead of one of these steps? In other words, a unit has to hit the target, be able to do damage, and on top of that it has to pass a MR check? What is the value that compares to MR in the first place (an equivalent of penetration for weapons)? (this MR requirement is not specific to spectral weapons only, but I still don't get it)

2. How do paralyzing attacks work exactly? Yes, they freeze the target, but don't do any other damage? In other words, if I have only spirits in my army, they will paralyze the enemies to oblivion but never actually kill them? The same goes for strength drain, does it in fact do any damage? I don't seem to have noticed any physical damage from either of these attacks, but I guess I might be wrong.

Btw, while I'm talking about the paralysis, how does illithid mind bLast work exactly? There are some things written down in its additional effects that I don't get at all.

3. Apparitions seem to disease every other unit in the squad they are placed in, although those units are undead. Am I right on this? What are the effects of the disease on undead? They don'y lose hitpoints, and heal after the battle (the incorporeal ones at least), but do they get additional afflictions at the same time?

All in all, very interesting theme, but might be very weak if MR is added on top of everything else, paralysis and strength drain don't do hitpoint damage, and the undead get additional afflictions. The only unit that is able to do damage then in the whole theme are the legionnaires, and you can only get them in a castle. Also, in a few turns you're not able to reanimate anything but the shadows in a province, since both corpses and population will be gone, so no more spirits or apparitions. Commanders are a bLast though - immortal, ethereal and with insane stats. I sent one centurion in an arena deathmatch just for fun since I was trying out things, and he killed a regenerating earth-powerful cyclops without getting a scratch in some 20 turns the battle Lasted. He didn't hit very often, but he couldn't be hurt either.

[ November 18, 2003, 17:13: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Undeads are unaffected by disease. The spectral weapons require both att and MR roll to do damage.

You will need to make sure you have some spectral legionaires or other units capable of dealing damage along with the paralysers.

You will have to move your reanimating commanders to recently conquered provinces in order to get access to the unburied dead. So you can't just bunker up and reanimate, you have to be agressive and possibly pillage new provinces.

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the reply.
Ok, then I guess that all the afflictions (apart from the disease) were from combat after all. But I did understand correctly that apparitions disease all other squad mambers, but not other squads in the same province? If so, then it's just a matter of not combining them with anything else (not that I was planning to, but it means no demons either if they disease everything in the province, so I'd like to know).

I also guess that your answer means that strength drain and paralysis do not do any hitpoint damage. I am still a bit unsure about strength drain, as it's listed as if though it might do damage equal to unit's strength, and that the drain is only an additional effect. Is there anything else to the paralysis apart from target having 0 att/def and not moving?

So, MR check is done before even considering damage? But what number is used as an equivalent of spell penetration when doing the calculation? It would be very important, since they have to do an additional check, and their spectral weapons are not even AP (IIRC). In other words, as I said about the centurion's arena match, they are hard to hit, but have trouble hitting at the same time (and they are fried against Caelum). I guess etherealness also applies to regular missile weapons as well, as in even when hit they have a 75% chance of avoiding it altogether?

Aggressiveness is fine, I was just thinking when compared to Ashen empire that can reanimate longdead and longdead horsemen anywhere (and gets them for free in addition to that) it might be a bit disadvantaged. But I realize the strengths of it (ethereal units, bunches of paralyzing spirits - I've never had such an easy time when dealing with i.e. knights; definitely not this early in the game). It would seem that it's not relying on masses of units, like Ashen empire, but rather on a smaller more specialized forces.

[ November 18, 2003, 20:10: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Steal strength do do HP damage and lowers the strength of units.

Paralyzed targets hit by an additional paralyze are slightly damaged.

Apparitions are surrounded by clouds of disease. Any units near them will be affected.

Spectral weapons have no additional penetration (11+2d6). The centurion does not have a spectral weapon (IIRC).

Wailing Ladies are sacred nowdays.

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, great! That means that the only reanimation that you can keep on doing is the one that also damages units, which makes perfect sense. You only get the special ones on special occasions, but "regular" ones any time. Shadows are very dangerous then. And even paralyzers can do damage, which is also great, as they seem to succeeed very often. And disease clouds means that noone is getting out of one of those battles unscathed. And wailing ladies are able to get fear +14 with death 9 (which you will probably have to get the consuls at death 6), so yes, it's great that they are sacred. And I know that centurions have regular weapons, I was just using it as an example of what I was trying to say. And I like this theme very much, and it's perhaps the most flavourful one in the game IMHO, along with carrion woods. And thank you for the reply. And...
Cheers,

Re: Soul gate
 

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Soul gate
 

I have been playing this theme for the Last couple hours and I want to second that- it's enormously fun and flavorful! Kudos!!

Re: Soul gate
 

Exhumed the thread - normal for Ermor ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Just tried Soul gate in SP on Zen's cool "MTW" Europe map, and I'm very impressed !
Disposs Spirits, Shadows and Spectral Legionnaires compliment each other perfectly : the ones swarm the enemies and paralyze them, the others kill it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Then you have quite good national summons : W ladies, Apparitions... Unholy leaders are expensive but powerful (Senators and Consuls).
In battle what's funny is that your losses are often important, but SG units are *very* effective vs big baddies often feared : Knights, Seasonal Spirits, Trolls, etc are quickly disposed of with your magic ethereal paralyzing units
The SG Mages are much better than the AE mages, with Dusk Elder D3 *1 at only 20 gems, allowing varied magic, site searches and items.
All the units are Ethereal, and many are Stealthy, you can send huge armies in enemy territory and attack/pillage them by surprise.
Lastly kick *** Heroes : a Wraith Lord with U3, and a Bane Lord http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !
Overall they look very good, admittedly I've only played them SP so my experience is limited, but compared to the crappy hordes of AE Soulless and Skeletons they are much more powerful - even if much less numerous.
And I like them much more, because they don't stink ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, Chief? That's exactly the same as the AE mages. Those Dusk Elders are the SAME D3*1, 20 gem Dusk Elders. I'd know. I've just gotten back from my second board-organized AE Ermor MP stomping.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Etimmu the Wraith Lord, D3U3 is a hero in Ashen Empire as well.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem with SG is that it doesn't acquire forward momentum with the same speed as AE: Your better unholy priests can't be summoned by base Dusk Elders, unlike the AE ArchBishop. Your troops aren't as numerous (which can be both good and bad, depending on the micromanagement load), and they're no longer unbreakable. Their weaknesses to massed-banish continue to exist. The troops *ARE* somewhat better, but it takes you a lot longer to acquire critical mass than it does with AE. SG Ermor does better mid to mid-late, whereas AE Ermor is better off early.

[ March 08, 2004, 10:43: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Soul gate
 

I like particularly the wraith centurion, which is immortal. He never routs (immortal in friendly dominion), can kill alone indep provinces, and if he fails, you find him again in your capitol for the next season of rampages. Well worth the (high) price.

Re: Soul gate
 

Ha, Ok Norfleet, I made a mistake about AE Mages - I compared them only on paper and didn't correctly read the AE Unit List http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif .
So AE magic is on par with SG magic. For high-level commander summoning, it not that hard to give a couple Dusk Elders a Skull Staff to get Senators, then a Skull face to have Consuls. And anyway you can have a 6+ Death Pretender to help.

Pocus,
SG units are breakable, but not easily, their base morale is 16+, and they are immune to fear. OTOH they create much fear themselves ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Their MR is good too at 13+ (except Disp Spirits at 11). And it gets increased by Unholy prayers ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Soul gate
 

Norfleet,
I've only a very light knowledge of AE. Maybe they're more effective in early expansion (but even so SG is not that bad at it).
However what struck me is that the SG units are efficient throughout the game and whatever the enemies are , whereas Soulless and Longdead hordes are pretty weak and useless as soon as big units appear.
I'd try AE soon in a new game to have a better understanding of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Soul gate
 

I'm using Soul Gate Ermor in an MP game right now. It hasn't gotten far enough for a real test of my strategies there yet, but I played an SP game with all the AIs switched on to test my design and general plans.

It was a lot of fun. Marignon gave me trouble, as one would think, but they were really the only ones. Poor Rl'yeh fell over like a house of soggy wet playing cards, and Ulm's black plate infantry made for some lovely statuary after being hit with strength stealing and paralysis.

I didn't feel it was overpowered (Marignon still hurts, and Arcosephale would have been much more of a bear if I hadn't gotten very lucky in their getting boxed in early) but it was a lot of fun. One of my favorite themes now, in fact!

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, it's perfectly DOABLE, but a skull staff, and a skull face, won't really be available until you've done some research. Combined with the cost, it's not something you can bolt out of the gate with, like AE. I've tried both SG and AE: AE is definitely a stronger starter. On a larger map, one that isn't nauseatingly claustrophobic, SG will probably catch up by midgame: I've found that the paralyzing spirits are very effective at stopping Doom Horrors. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Soul gate
 

Wow. That sounds interesting. I have only played AE so far since I thought SG was just a weaker Version of AE. Now I definitely have to try it.

PS: Playing as the undead had never much appeal to me until I bought this game that is. Ermor's themes add the right flavour IMO.

Re: Soul gate
 

Whenever a patch appears that makes paralysis temporary, SG (and, for that matter, anybody else that might make heavy use of Dispossessed Spirits; T'ien C'hi comes to mind) will be weakened a notch.
SG is nice in a variety of ways, although they lose the free longdead horsemen and KotUS. If memory serves, that leaves them with no reanimated/auto-gen cavalry or sacred non-commanders (Wailing Ladies still exist as a national summons, but aren't cheap.) And the ubiquitous Prot-0 is worrisome (flaming arrows, wide-area battle magic).

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I'm not so sure that would be the case. At least according to my experience with T'ien Ch'i the dispossessed spirits keep attacking the paralyzed units until those die, after that moving to new targets. That way, a limited time for paralyzation won't be a much of an issue to the spirits as they are still there hacking away when the duration ends. Were they to wander about paralyzing all they encounter the lessened duration would be a bigger hinderance. (ok, barring cases like that heat aura of Abysians which seems to kill the spirits after some time and so on)

As it is now I repeatedly see the strange situation where my living troops are packed behind a group of spirits hacking at paralyzed enemies whose comrades are packed behind the paralyzed guys. Everything's at standstill until the first line dies or enough units leak around the paralyzed guys. Well, no matter, I think the spirits are still doing quite fine.

Or then I just need more practice in troop placement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Soul gate
 

Maybe placing the living troops at the flanks (using the "attack rear" command) of the spirits would mean that they have their own targets to work on. Of course they then would have to fight enemies who can fight back.

[ March 09, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Starfighter08 ]

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nah, that's not going to happen. The spirits will keep whomping on the paralyzed guys anyway, and they'll just get paralyzed more.

Re: Soul gate
 

Depends on target MR. A high-MR unit is far less likely to be re-paralyzed during a short-term paralysis. They almost certainly won't counter a Doom Horror with an antimagic talisman, for instance... or even a decent-MR unit boosted by Antimagic or similar.

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You know, interestingly, I found those paralyzing spirits to be the bane of my Doom Horrors. Against everything else the AI threw at me, a single Doom Horror would clean house. But against SG Ermor's paralyzing spirits, the Doom Horror would bite it nearly every time, even with the regen+MR miscs.

[ March 10, 2004, 00:22: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Soul gate
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I'm not so sure that would be the case. At least according to my experience with T'ien Ch'i the dispossessed spirits keep attacking the paralyzed units until those die, after that moving to new targets. That way, a limited time for paralyzation won't be a much of an issue to the spirits as they are still there hacking away when the duration ends. Were they to wander about paralyzing all they encounter the lessened duration would be a bigger hinderance. (ok, barring cases like that heat aura of Abysians which seems to kill the spirits after some time and so on)

As it is now I repeatedly see the strange situation where my living troops are packed behind a group of spirits hacking at paralyzed enemies whose comrades are packed behind the paralyzed guys. Everything's at standstill until the first line dies or enough units leak around the paralyzed guys. Well, no matter, I think the spirits are still doing quite fine.

Or then I just need more practice in troop placement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, there're several solutions to this, I'm experimenting with :
* Mix Spirits with "killing" troops in the same squads. Only problem with that is that the squad isn't Stealthy anymore if you mix Spirits with non-stealthy troops...
* Alternate Spirits and "killing" squads on the battlefield, in a way they would engage together the enemy
* Put Spirits in front and other troops on the flank "attack rearmost" so they make a flank attack on the partly paralyzed foes
* Spirits ordered to attack Archers are fine, they quickly disable the shooters

All of this isn't foolproof but usually enhances the paralyzers effectiveness. It works also with other paralyzing units, such as Shadows.