Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

It's pissing me off. Is there anything I can do about it?

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Nothing, really. Unless you're playing Arco (priestess can <heal>), own the Chalice (artifact), cast 'Gift of Health' or Summon a Fairy Queen and make her <heal>. So basically you are stuck with diseases.

Or you can try to find the source and react. Site 'Inkpot well' springs to mind - a site that diseases troops in its province. Or have non-cold-blooded troops in C'tis' Miasma-dominion.

- Humer

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

I can understand making it difficult to heal most battle afflections such as "crippled" or "lost an eye". Yet there should be more cures available for diseases. Getting a disease in this game is worse then getting the bubonic plague back during the 1800's... at least you had a 1% chance of surviving back then. In Dominions_II if you get units with diseases you might as well group them all together and march them into a suicide battle... because they are already dead.

Yes I know the ways to fix it... but for diseases there should be more cures.
examples = (priests, low_level curing spell, witches, or even a 5% chance the units immune system wins.)

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I second this. In fact there should be a spell to remove curse.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If there is a particular commander that you really really want to save (a mage with some particular random magic combo most probably) you can do some of the following:

-If he has death magic cast Twiceborn: he will reincarnate into a wight mage upon death (who, btw, will be immune to further diseasing). No upkeep anymore also.

-If you can develop one of the cures (Faery queen...) but still need time, equip the commander with a ring of regeneration. He will keep piling on aflictions but should survive until you be ready to cure him/her. You can alternatively send the commander to battle & script a mage to cast healing light...the idea is to get said commander to recover some hps to counter the hp drain from the disease.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

As to why you keep losing commanders to disease you might try searching for a death or blood site that causes disease in a province you like to build in or march thru. Late in the game I think there are spells that can cause disease in your provinces also. And of course attacking certain enemys can get you diseased.

As to fixing it, I agree that it seems like something that I should have a chance to get over. Or come in levels of damage like poison does.

Maybe diseased units should have a chance to heal up if they return home for awhile. To rest. The game already keeps track of "home province" for each unit and gives battle bonuses for it. Or maybe if they returned to the capital.

[ November 19, 2003, 14:03: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Disease isn't that hard to avoid, and it adds a a nice touch to the game. Something to keep you on your toes. It shouldn't be easy to cure.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Right now, it seems that disease is binary -- a unit either has a terminal disease or it doesn't. Varying severity might make sense. Not all diseases should be readily cured, but it wouldn't be completely unreasonable for some to be survivable without magical action.
(Addendum. Last night I saw the Tien Chi AI try to siege a castle of mine w/ about 1000+ units. One of its commanders, the "Master with the Iron Crutch" immortal, helped kill a fair part of his force I think because he spreads disease... whereas I had the Chalice inside, and enough supply/units to hold out arbitrarily long. It shouldn't bring disease-spreaders with a large force unless they're immune, they've got GoHealth (which I had, not Tien Chi), or have numerous healers, or it's an absolute necessity for some bizarre reason).

[ November 19, 2003, 15:44: Message edited by: Taqwus ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Lets not nerf disease (and curse) so quickly. Sure its annoying, but that's what it's supposed to be! Undead in particular can get shafted pretty easilly, let their immunity to disease be worth something...

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

It's just that 'Disease' in this game is worse than the bubonic plague and ebola combined ! Diseased units Never Survive without some extreme extraordinary measures.

My point is that disease always... always... always kills unless magic is used. And thus it shouldn't be called diseased... because its so much worse than what the definition of a disease is.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Oh, boo-hoo!

I've never had a problem with disease, really. It's annoying as hell, but not fatal (other than to units that get it). Just yesterday while playing Abysia (Dom-PPP, not Dom2) I got my prophet diseased around turn 8 or 10. It annoyed the hell out of me, of course, but them's the breaks. Of course, the province he had been in immediately got Dark Knowledged and sure enough, Chillsick Swamp popped up. Inkpot End and Leper Fens are the other two disease sites.

Disease from causes other than starvation is pretty rare, and I don't think it should be nerfed down. If my favorite commander gets it, then I'll be **** out of luck unless I can develop the cures, but them's the breaks. If it's something that happens immediately in the early game to some special hero (such as happened to me in a R'lyeh game where I got Shadul Ummuush from the start), I'm just as liable to start a new game immediately.

Leper Fens and Chillsick Swamp are Death sites, and can actually be pretty nice to have in some inconsequential and otherwise useless backwater provinces, as they have pretty good gem income (2w + 1d & 1d + 1n + 1w, respectively). Inkpot End is just a pain in the *** no matter where it is.

Edi

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Obviously Edi doesn't know the definition of disease.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

By the way, for some real fun with disease, try casting "Foul Air". Not recommended unless you can cope with disease well.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Imagine a world where treating a disease involves leeches then wonder why disease is in it's current form.

Historically; disease killed far more people than any war did and very few if any could be stopped from running their natural course.

Even today in our modern health-conscious society we still have had recently (In history) things like Small Pox, Mlaria and others that tear through the undeveloped nations nearly unchecked.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Actually, smallpox is not uniformly fatal. Neither was bubonic plague. I would like to agree with the folks who think there should be some chance of recovery even without the use of artifacts or healing spells.

It doesn't really bug me that there isn't, though. Because all sides must abide by the same rules. It just seems like another example of bad things outweighing good things as was the case with luck. And that decay spell.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

It wasn't fatal but it drove the life expectancy down quite a bit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

In a medieval world where a common peasant has a life expectancy of around 40 (if he's lucky) it has quite a bit more impact.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Most diseases would be over in a month. Either your'e dead or your'e alive. The diseases of dominons are more like leprosy or other wasting diseases. Your body festers and bodyparts fall off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Sometimes you loose an eye, sometimes you loose your mind and sometimes you loose your chest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Nooooooooooooo ...

It's VD.

She was a burner ...

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

What I'd like to see is more "kick-inna-nuts"-sites, meaning that site has some evil, if not fiendish, surprise. These could include:
- sites (found or not) that cause % chance of assassination attempt by some thing (void-thingys?) in the province
- sites that when found, cause a horde of some evil monsters to attack and reclaim the province. If searcher is killed, then province becomes neutral and site becomes hidden!
- sites (found or not) that give afflictions other than disease. Some misleading message might be included, such as "Some unknown assassin tried to kill your commander, but he got away with a wound."
- summoning bonus sites with a chance of "backfiring" as in R'lyeh's Void Gate
- different (all fatal) diseases, such as decreasing strenght, attack, leadership

And then :drumroll: spells to provide these effects, too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

- Humer

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

My guess is that the demon lords use their influence over the world to ensure that diseases are always painfully lethal. It strikes me as something they'd focus on. :b Deal.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

NTJedi, I know very well what diseases are. Most you either recover from or don't. I'm assuming that the diseases in Dominions would be, like Kristoffer said, of the invariably fatal variety (such as leprosy) or tuberculosis or syphilis which the victim will not recover from without medicines/magic and which will be fatal over the course of time.

As for smallpox and plague (bubonic, lung and blood), while those were not always fatal (not sure about the blood variety, which was worst, they're all caused by the same germ), they were so deadly that they might as well have been, and it's just an added layer of complexity to model some minuscule recovery chance and attendant later immunity to disease for such recovered units into the game. The Black Death basically depopulated Europe in the Middle Ages, so I don't think it is an unrealistic simplification, or even a particularly far-fetched one, to have units that catch disease die eventually.

Edi

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

EDI...

You are failing to understand that diseases do not have a 100% Kill Rate.... with or without medicine/magic.

With diseases the chances of survival vary from only 0.1% dying to as high as 93% dying WITHOUT medicine/magic. NOW... with diseases on dominions_II it means 100% ALWAYS Death without medicine/magic.

Also being that this game has so so many different races, creatures, and monsters of all different powers/sizes it's truly amazing/wrong to see a diseased unit 'ALWAYS' die.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

I understand your point well enough, you just don't see mine.

Some diseases do have a 100% kill rate untreated. Syphilis, leprosy, tuberculosis for example. These were common once upon a time. The means to treat them are very recent inventions when you consider human history. The biggest advances in medical science since the Roman times were for the most part achieved in during the late 19th century and the 20th century, and the cures for a lot of previously untreatable diseases only after 1930, with the discovery of antibiotics.

I'm actually not sure if leprosy can even be cured instead of just arrested (I'd have to check, but assuming Donaldson did his research when he wrote the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, then it is indeed incurable).

Cancers, especially melanoma and lymphoma, but most others as well, will 100% guaranteed kill you if untreated, and melanoma for example will do it real quick-like, just a few months if not detected and excised in the very early stages.

If we want to talk about diseases like Black Death and smallpox, yes, some people survive those untreated (afaik there is no treatment, just vaccine for smallpox, as it's caused by a virus), but they are very few.

Problem is, most people on these forums, like you and I, are used to late 20th century medicine that's available on demand, and we'd probably have been dead several times over just a couple of hundred years ago. If we assume the Dominions world to have a general medical knowledge of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance period, anybody getting one of the serious diseases (e.g. leprosy, syphilis, cancer) is screwed up the *** hard and then some. Hell, basic wound infection would kill them more often than the wound itself.

Even if you allowed for Roman level medical knowledge (the period of Marcus Aurelieus's reign till the Fall), it changes little. Wound infection deaths would be the only thing that goes down, as their knowledge was on the surgery front (they could perform cataract surgeris, for example) and treating injuries, not diseases (but they understood the effect of cleanliness and principles of isolation and a lot of other stuff). People were also generally less well nourished than now, thus had overall weaker immune systems and succumbed more easily.

If you programmed a 1% or 5% or 0.1% chance of recovery, whoo-hoo, who's going to give a damn? Because it's going to be an added layer of complexity that has no value at all. Yeah, you might get lucky with that favorite commander who had gotten diseased, but the likelihood is that he will just die anyway. Besides, if you want to have an accurate modeling, next people would be *****ing that units that got cured of disease should have immunity afterward, which is not realistic given how there are more than one type of very deadly diseases, some survivable (if you're lucky), some always 100% fatal even if they take a little bit more time.

Given all of the above, why not have the disease be always fatal? Leprosy/syphilis/cancer and it's goodbye without magic (leprosy) or appropriate medical knowledge and procedures (syphilis & cancer), which require the kind of technology that the Dominions world simply does not have.

Magical healing powers (Arco, fairy queen, some heroes) can counter disease, which is good for them. Pangaean type units are able to cure afflictions some of the time, including disease, which means they're hardy. Other creatures and things are either immune (undead/inanimate things) or **** out of luck, and them's the breaks, and I see no reason to protest that on the ridiculous assumption that because we know how to cure most of these, the same knowledge and technology would be available in the Dom2 world.

It can be assumed that when you get the starvation/disease Messages ("...diseases are afflicting the troops") or when you have armies in a province with Chillsick Swamp, Leper Fens or Inkpot End that those who got the disease markers and death sentence that goes along with them were the weak ones who don't have what it takes to survive, and the ones who didn't either never got disease or got it but fought it off. All of this is completely plausible with suspension of disbelief firmly in place and with the additional benefit of not needing to add unnecessary complexity to the game.

In other words, I want some stronger arguments than an overgeneralised and flat out wrong claim that all diseases are survivable without treatment (especially given some underlying assumptions about the technology and medical knowledge base in the Dom2 world, namely that it's at Middle Age and not Roman level) and an unjustified demand that there must be a chance for units to be cured of the disease affliction.

The devs aren't very predisposed to providing a cure mechanism, and I find that perfectly okay in light of historical facts and as you can see, there are perfectly good arguments for their position. Feel free to try and discredit them, but I don't think your case is strong enough.

Edi

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's WRONG... do some studying.
Ebola if a far greater danger then what you have listed above.

60% of sufferers die within three years from the more dangerous types of tuberculosis.

The researchers studied tissue samples from 240 patients with diffuse large-B-cell lymphoma. Based on their analysis of about 10,000 genes, they found at least three distinct diseases, with varying chances of survival.
http://www.oakridger.com/stories/071...710020019.html


THERE IS NO REPORTED DISEASE TO HAVE A 100% Kill Rate... especially for different creatures, animals and so on. And we see all different types of living things within this game.

[ November 21, 2003, 12:13: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Ebola has a roughly 90% to 95% kill rate. Untreated syphilis hasa 100% kill rate, but it takes years or decades even. It will kill you, though. Tuberculosis, 60% death rate in 3 years for the more virulent strains, how about 10 years or 15 years? You don't get to cut off at some arbitrary point if we're talking about untreated diseases.

Leprosy doesn't kill in and of itself, but kills the nerves so you lose all feeling and won't notice minor injuries that get infected and will leave you a wreck. Read up on it (if nothing else, than the Covenant books, the descriptions are pretty graphic). It cannot be cured, as far as I know.

AIDS will kill you 100% certainly if untreated, and even treatment just postpones that fate. It's not the AIDS virus itself, but the other stuff that it allows to run rampant in your system, so in effect it's the cause.

Besides, that lymphoma article of yours is utterly irrelevant, because it predicts survival chances with treatment, while the whole goddamn setup in Dom2 is that present-day medical technology is not available, hence no available treatments! What part of this are you too stupid to understand?

But if you really want, I can easily get the opinions of qualified MDs to settle this, so wait over the weekend. We could use professional input here.

Edi

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Edi...
actually even with AIDS there are a few mysterious cases where no trace remains of the infection. Ever since Iraq's chemical weapon threat there has been alot more news discussions regarding small pox and other diseases.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So, "supplies" represents uninfected whores, rather than food. That would actually fit the way "starvation" works in the game pretty well... much better than it fits the effects of food starvation.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[ November 21, 2003, 19:25: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

HIV-can remain dormant a decade or longer before causing AIDS. It wouldn't really be noticable as a disease until it manifests, though, right? And how many turns would a decade be? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Untreated syphillis...yes...it will produce horrible problems...but over a long time. And folks are still very functional for quite a while. Years and years and years. And their eyes don't pop out. They don't develop chest wounds, etc.

Actually, I would like to see these diseases be more along the lines of diarrhea and the like. Disease often killed more people in wartime than combat did. So adding it in is realistic. It's just that there aren't any diseases I know of which have the characteristics of even the nonmagical diseases you get with Dom 2.

I think the uncertainty factor with diseases would be very interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Good lord, some of you just cannot see the forest for the trees can you?

Disease, as implemented in Dom, is a friggin game element, its not supposed to be a realistic modeling of how actual diseases spread in this world!!!

I'll say it again... the many maps of Dom2, the many nations of Dom2, the many creatures of Dom2, have *NOTHING* to do with anyones conception of the real world other than the devs, and even there, I'd guess they are applying a great deal of abstraction to just about everything.

Get off your rediculose notions about how things 'really work' and just accept the fact that some things in the game are done for balance or flavor, or whatever reason crept into the devs mind when they thought of it.

If it makes you feel any better just hack the files and rename 'Disease' to 'Lingering Death' or 'Incurable Plague' or whatever pissant semantic games you need to play...

Sheesh for a bunch of fans of fantasy there is seemingly a great disconnect with what fantasy is...

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Where is the difference between an unknown InkpotEnd-Site and a revealed one?

In one game, I couldnt decrease the unrest in a province below 5 by any means, so it was likely that there were an Inkpot-End site present. As far as I am aware, you cannot do anything about it, so where is the point in searching for it? Or did you just refer to avoid building fortresses in such provinces?


(Sorry to bring up this old thread, but there werent many threads concerned with InkpotEnd and friends around...)

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

The difference is that you get the positive effects (which Inkpot End doesn't have) and the possibility that you forget it was there is smaller. Also, there are quite a few sites that cause unrest while hidden, and some are very good. Especially some of he blood variety... (free devils/ fiends!)

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Inkpot End is always visible. You don't have to search for it. It's a good thing too, since it's an Unholy site, and would be kinda hard to find.

[ March 08, 2004, 16:58: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Whoever thinks fantasy is not based on the real world has a low-intelligence. Fantasy is totally based on science, realism, spiritualism, religion, etc. I will never accept anything in a fantasy game if it seems unrealistic. It is not realistic if it cannot be explained.

A true fan of fantasy will never curse it so much as you have, Licker.

But the reason no one should be upset with the "unlrealism" of disease in Dom2 is because Dom2 is a game. Sometimes you just can't get everything perfectly "real" (fantasy wise) and still have a balanced, well-made game.

[ March 08, 2004, 17:59: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Seems to me it's more a terminology issue than anything else. The common definition of "disease" is not "sickness with 100% mortality rate", so when everyone who gets a disease dies, the player is rightfully confused (and possibly irritated).

If the Messages said "so and so has contracted the Dark Black Uber-Disease of Certain and Painful Death", then the player would be more clear on the eventual consequences. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 08, 2004, 18:15: Message edited by: Sand ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Me, I see the disease issue as roughly par for the course, in a fantasy game, especially given how a disease is commonly acquired: Some sort of horrible spell or magic site. The starvation thing may be a little extreme, though. I've never seen anyone starve until their arm falls off, but hey. Maybe starvation should just prevent healing, reduce strength, and reduce unit HPs without causing permanent afflictions. But that's probably more than the developers care to change at this point in time.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Leper Fens is hidden, gives no warning message (at least if hidden), and spreads deadly diseases too. Fun when it's in the first province you conquer...

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Naa, it's more fun when you build a castle over it not knowing what is in store.

One time I built a castle on a high-resource province but it had a magic site to cause unrest. Since I really needed that province's resources, I set the tax to 0. For some reason, 5 unrest remains there forever. I even patrolled it with 60 units, that 5 unrest will never go away. Oh well, probably because it was a magic site that caused 5 unrest a turn.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

I think a few positive-effect magic sites would make everyone happy. Make them even rarer than the death/disease sites. Maybe only one of each in any one game.

Great Life Garden: Nature gems, cures diseases.
Sparkling Spring: Nature gems, heals afflictions.
Soaring Falls Shrine: Nature/Air gems, increases population rate.
Ancient Earth Temple: earth gems, removes curses.

People would have to go on quests to get cured. The diseases, curses, afflictions would all still have a large effect on the game--units would be taken out of play for a time. Probably only heores, commanders, and pretenders would make the pilgrimage--and while they were journeying they would not be fighting, spelling, or otherwise having an effect on the game.

Those provinces with these sites would be some of the most valuable in the game. Fiercely contested over, just like fortresses.

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

Sites to do those things sound good to me. I wouldn't give them gems as well as their special ability though - there are plenty of sites that give gems.

PvK

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Considering that it describes the exact effects of the affliction right next to the word "Disease", I don't see what anyone has to complain about. Sure, you won't know about it until you see it the first time, but considering how common diseases are, that'll be...your first game? Second? I knew about it by my second game.

I think disease is fine. It puts some real teeth into starvation and disease-causing units in general.

I also think that adding disease-curing special sites is a great idea, though. In fact, more unique special sites (beyond just +X gems/turn) is a great idea in general.

[ March 09, 2004, 02:21: Message edited by: Sindai ]

Re: Why do my commanders keep dying of disease?
 

In regards to the deadliness of disease, you must remember that the major killers on many campaigns was not the enemy, but was instead diseases such as dysentery. Such diseases were especially common whenever the army was not properly supplied.