Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I have been playing against a buddy of mine (much better then AI any day) and I moved into one of his home planets to smash it. Well the 3 mine sweepers weren't enough (they swept 42 mines)- I lost all 4 Carriers and the rest of the 19 ship fleet.

So, it is nearly impossible to take on a human planet if he has enough mines placed there.

Is this a game killer flaw or is there some way I could get around this strategy?

Thanks,

Bowden

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Either wait until you have researched stellar manipulation to level 4 or 5 and open a new warp point to the enemy system from one of your own...

Or use http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/ubbup.../HD-Mod1_0.zip
The instructions are on the mods board, HreDaak posted it on 19th of jan.

Which uses Point defense cannon to sweep mines instead of minesweeper comps. It makes the AI a lot harder to deal with and mines become a LOT less useful.

[This message has been edited by jimbob55 (edited 31 January 2001).]

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

or build more sweepers. get bigger hulls, better sweepers. i mean, 3 sweepers is not much of an effort unless you are in the early game. 10 components * 5 mines per * 4 ships = 200 mines, so it can be done, and sweeper ships build fairly fast.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I like the Stellar Manipulation approach.
Let your opponent mine *HIS* side of the wormhole. Now, you mine *YOUR* side of the wormhole. Then, when he is completely complacent about how well protected he is, mass your entire fleet in one system. Open a wormhole to his HOME system, and utterly lay waste to it. MUHAHAHA! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I too like the SM approach. I usually set up 1 fleet as a "raider" fleet. It has the usual complement: mine sweepers, repair ship, missle ships PD ships, and of course 1 SM ship. It keeps the AI reeling (and I suspect it would a human opponent also) 'cause they keep trying to react to where the fleet is this "month". Just open a W Point inside the enemy territory, go thru, close the WP and wreak havoc for a coupla' months. Reopen WP to your territory, go thru, and close WP.

If you want to really mess 'em up, just send a "star buster" thru and waste the whole system. That'll definitely get rid of the mines (and everything else of course).

Of course with a human opponent, it probably would work both ways....

This game is soooo cool....brings out the evil in all of us....

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Imagine the fun we can have in human vs. human games.

You see a wormhole open up in one of your more isolated systems. Then, the wormhole closes. Hmmm.. that was weird, you think--assuming you even saw it happen.

Next you send your fleet through one of the 'default' wormholes in your system. KABOOM! They all die.

Of course, I would hope you have to un-cloak to lay mines...

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

The problem with the stellar manipulation solution is that the original post was concerning a mined *planet*. Not a warp point.

-Mark

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Well if you building carriers I cna assume you got light cruiser class ships as well. Just take one of those babies and put in the bare min compenets needed and the rest minesweepers! forget shield and weapons just sweepers. A few of these will be able to sweep a large number of mines asap.



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Seawolf on the prowl

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Alternatives to simply using lots of sweepers, or a star destroyer...

Steal his ships using Crew Insurrection, if he's got any left nearby, and run them into the minefield.

Possibly, sweep with cheap (basically empty) fighters -- either they set off the mines (perhaps one each?... which would be quite wasteful) or they ignore them (even niftier).

Or ignore the planet military-wise, using instead facility sabotage, PPP, anarchy Groups, or condition/value-wrecking ops -- it shouldn't be too hard to drive it to Deadly conditions. And then surround it with storms or your own minefields if you're feeling evil.


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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raynor:
Imagine the fun we can have in human vs. human games.

You see a wormhole open up in one of your more isolated systems. Then, the wormhole closes. Hmmm.. that was weird, you think--assuming you even saw it happen.

Next you send your fleet through one of the 'default' wormholes in your system. KABOOM! They all die.

Of course, I would hope you have to un-cloak to lay mines...

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, you do NOT have to uncloak to lay mines. This seems realistic to me. All you have to do is push them out a hatch, after all. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif And why open a new warp point? Just sail into the existing oneand drop your mines. Unfortunately, most of the rest of mine operations are NOT realistic. We've got several threads on this board which discuss how they always hit and how that spoils their usefulness and believability. Also, mine sweeping is 'instantaneous' when in fact it should take some time. You ought to lose a movement point when your mine sweepers are activated. This is one of the primary purposes of mines in RL warfare, to DELAY and harass your enemy. Hopefully MM will make some changes when the worst of the bug fixing is accomplished.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

It is interesting to note that all of the counters mentioned for 200 mines requires much more advanced technology than it takes to lay the 200 mines.

I'm in a PBEM game where we soon all have minefield technology. At that point, it will become almost impossible for a long time to invade each others space. I tried to persuade the host to turn off minefield technology, but I could not convince him.

I like the model used by Stars for minefields better. You can try to run them and take your chances or you can slowly, methodically clear them without taking damage. This fits the real-life model better.

What I find incredible in SEIV is that you cannot use beam weapons to destroy them, you must invest research into mines to be able to get the technology to clear them. That does not make sense in my opinion.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
Possibly, sweep with cheap (basically empty) fighters -- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That makes me think...Does anyone know if you can mod a fighter component? I remember reading in another thread about someone modding Point Defense to clear / kill mines. Could you mod a fighter weapon to PD and sweep mines? Could be a real cheap way - build fighters (cheap and no maintenance) with these mods and let them do the "sweeping". The only downfall - fighters can't use Warp Points.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Well I am playing only against the AI (Max difficulty and bonus), but they do leave nasty mines around. I have specialty ships that carry the various system scanners a repair bay, 2 Point Defense weapons and mine sweeps. I always have at least one and normally two of these along with my larger fleets. I have stared using a command ship that caries scanners PD's sweeps and the computer that lets all ships fight at the level of the highest ship in the fleet. Am I have some ships with experience level Legendary.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I have found that if you have enough shielding, say over 1800 points worth, then even the largest mine field will be destryoed against it.
What I have seen is that the mines attack one at a time, so if your ship can withstand that attack, it gets all of it's shieding back for the next attacking mine.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I might be mistaken ... But I think mines ignore shields....

I usually have 5-8 sweepers in a 30 ship fleet- packed full of armor, and sweeper components.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I don't think that they do ignore shields, not unless the new patch changed that.
I have run a heavily shielded ship into a mine field and it used to survive OK. Maybe this has been changed???

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I have the impression, that most of you think mines are to powerful. Well I personally would disagree about that. Sure they are quite efficiant in the early game, but when you have researched mine sweeper component V and dreadnoughts you can easily build a mineweeper, that eliminates 100 mines! If you think about the cost of 100 mines they become quite unattractive in this later stage of the game. So I think it is rather balanced the way it is now.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I too think that the mines are not a problem in human vs. human player, but in situations where AI is against a human player they are. AI will send only 1 minesweeper at the time to clear minefields, even if it had plenty of them to use. It does not group them into fleets, or accompany them in regular fleets. So agains AI the mines are a formiddable weapon even in the late game...

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I'm not sure about shields but I do know that with my games, if I have Organic Armor III (I almost always play organic tech) and I run into a minefield, the game log always says:

Encounter minefield in Sector X,Y... It has damaged some ships" or something like that.

When I check the status of the ships, they are fine. Any other ships (or techs) that I play, I usually get some kind of damage in the larger minefields, but not with Organic Armor III. Is it invinceable?? or is it the regeneration properties?? or is it a bug?? IIRC, Organic Armor III has 150 damage resistance but only 30 Regeneration. Shouldn't SOMETHING be damaged after hitting a minefield with 50 mines w/ Warheads III???

I kinda' hope that it IS a bug and can be fixed / adjusted. I wouldn't want to think that Organic races are virtually immune to mines. I mean, its cool if you're organic, but that doesn't seem to fit good in game balance.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

rdouglas: the organic armor, IIRC, has some regeneration capacity, best if used in multiple sets of it.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I think that the regeneration abilities of organic armor are cumulative. i.e. if you have one piece of organic armor III it will regenarate 30pts, but if you have 5 pieces of organic armor III it will regenerate 150pts and replace the piece that was destroyed by the mine.

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Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Yeah, that's cool - but 50 mines!!! C'mon, that seems to be a huge "game balance" issue for organic tech. And when I have O Armor II (or I) the mines do cause damage. I am aware of the regen cababilities of O Armor (thats why I go Organic), but I say again - 50 mines??? all with Warhead III??? IIRC a warhead III does 300 damage and with 2 on each mine that is 600 per mine. Multiply by 50 mines and thats - what - 30,000 damage!!!!

It does sound to me like this totally negates any usefulness of mines toward organic empires. I think organic tech has enough advantages without being immune to mines.

Any other thoughts??? Is this a bug???

[This message has been edited by rdouglass (edited 02 February 2001).]

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Mines work one at a time. So if your ship can survive one mine with no damage it will survive 200 mines with no damage. Organic armor regenerates after each attack. Each warhead is calculated as one atack so if your ship can survive one warhead on one mine and not be damaged it will take out the whole group. This may not be realistic (and in large Groups organic armor seems to do a few weird things, like the regeneration effects from destroyed armor works just as well as the surviving armor as long as one piece of armor survives) but untill there are code changes or warheads do 10000 points of damage I don't see a way around it.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

I'll remember Never to play anything BUT organic when I start playing humans......

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Well, that depends. What's the max damage a piece of organic armor can survive and what's the damage a Mine Warhead III can inflict? Because -my- mines never have anything but warhead IIIs. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomgs:
Mines work one at a time. So if your ship can survive one mine with no damage it will survive 200 mines with no damage. Organic armor regenerates after each attack. Each warhead is calculated as one atack so if your ship can survive one warhead on one mine and not be damaged it will take out the whole group. This may not be realistic (and in large Groups organic armor seems to do a few weird things, like the regeneration effects from destroyed armor works just as well as the surviving armor as long as one piece of armor survives) but untill there are code changes or warheads do 10000 points of damage I don't see a way around it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I've always wondered why people thought the regeneration of other damaged pieces was a bug. When I put on 4 pieces of any armor on my ship, I assume I'm not so much pasting 4 seperate pieces of armor on as I'm making the armor I have thicker, so I think the regen works the way it should since it's really one piece of armor. Just my thought on it.



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Regards,
KiloOhm

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Personally, if the planets are so heavily mined, and the player likes to build more mines during his turn, its near hopless. So, I simply blow up the systems Star, and be done with it. Then move in a planet maker and rebuild the star and planets. Colonize, and move onto the next system.

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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

dont those mines count against the max unit limit?

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Puke wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>dont those mines count against the max unit limit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My understand is each grouping of mines counts as only one unit. So if they have 500 mines in a single group, that only counts as a single unit. If they have 50 Groups of 10 mines, it'd be 50 units.

This is one reason for the "Max # of units/space" setting being added in the next patch.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiloOhm:

I've always wondered why people thought the regeneration of other damaged pieces was a bug. When I put on 4 pieces of any armor on my ship, I assume I'm not so much pasting 4 seperate pieces of armor on as I'm making the armor I have thicker, so I think the regen works the way it should since it's really one piece of armor. Just my thought on it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it might not be a bug but considering the way mines don't do damage to it and the ability to fly right through damaging wormholes that do more damage than one piece of armor can absorb it looks like a bug. It may be working as intended but it isn't working the way it should while interacting with the enviroment. The bug is in the mines but it only shows up because of the armor.

Re: Two Hundred Mines = Dead Fleet. How to Overcome?
 

Right now it seems each mine detonates against a ship as if it were part of a separate combat. So shields and all components not completely destroyed repair themselves prior to each mine hit.

You know what I'd like to see? Add to settings a "Max mine hits per kt" and set it to say 15. Then, and escort (150kt) can be hit by up to 10 mines each time it enters a mine field. Then, add to settings "Base Mine To Hit" and set it to say 70 percent. Now, when it goes to resolve entering a minefield, rather than "Enter combat, one mine explodes, leave combat, repeat until ship dead or out of mines" you'd have "Enter combat, between zero and max mines explode, leave combat". Note the lack of repeat, BTW.

Would make things a lot nicer in many ways IMO.

Edit: Stuff in italics.

[This message has been edited by Zanthis (edited 03 February 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Zanthis (edited 03 February 2001).]