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Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
I wonder if we could compile a list of the starting spells or if someone already has for every race/theme.
It would help me while I think about making pretenders/race combinations when I don't have access to the game at work and my mind is bored http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If not; I can compile one. I know Sunraybe's site has the beginnings of it; but is there a compiled list? If not I will start and finish one. Mictian (Base) - Bind Fiend (2 Blood), Bind Spine Devil (2 Blood) Abysia (Base and Blood of Humans) - Flare (3 Fire) Atlantian (Base) - Friendly Currents (2 Water) Pythium (Base) - Communion Master (1 Astral), Communion Slave (1 Astral) Pythium (Serpent Cult) - Horned Serpents (1 Nature) Arcoscephale (Base)- Astral Window (2 Astral) Machaka (Base) - Seven Year Fever (1 Nature, 1 Fire), Blindness (1 Fire) R'lyeh (Base) - Mind Burn (2 Astral) Man (Base and Last of the Tuatha) - Soothing Song (All "Song" 1 Nature), Healing Song, Song of Bravery, Sleep (2 Nature) Pangaea (Base and New Era) - Tune of Fear (All "Tune" 1 Nature), Tune of Growth, Tune of Dancing Death, Panic (2 Nature) Pangaea (Carrion Woods) - Carrion Lord (3 Nature, 2 Death), Carrion Lady (2 Nature, 1 Death), Carrion Centaur (1 Nature, 1 Death) Ulm (Base and Iron Faith) - Legions of Steel (3 Earth) C'tis (Base) - Terror (3 Death) C'tis (Desert Tombs) - Revive Tomb Consort (1 Death), Revive Tomb Priest (2 Death), Revive Tomb King (3 Death), Terror (3 Death) C'tis (Miasma) - Summon Bog Beast (2 Nature, 2 Water), Terror (3 Death) Caelum (Base and Return of the Raptors) - Wind Guide (2 Air) Marignon (Base and Fires of the Faith) - Holy Pyre (2 Fire) Marignon (Diabolical Faith) - Bind Harlequin (1 Blood) Vanheim (Base) - Phantasmal Warrior (1 Air) Vanheim (Midgard) - Ghost Wolves (3 Air) Vanheim (Helheim) - Phantasmal Warrior (1 Air), Reanimation (1 Death) Jotunheim (Base) - Reanimation (1 Death), Curse (1 Astral, 1 Nature) Jotunheim (Niefelheim) - Illwinter (5 Blood, 2 Water), Breath of Winter (2 Water) Jotunheim (Utgard) - Luck (1 Astral), Curse (1 Astral, 1 Nature) Ermor (Base) - Body Ethereal (1 Astral) Ermor (Ashen Empire) - Revive Lictor, Censar, Bishop, Acolyte, Wailing Lady, Spectator (2 Death), Revive Arch Bishop, Dusk Elder (3 Death), Raise Skeletons (2 Death) Ermor (Soul Gate) - Dark Knowledge (1 Death), Revive Wailing Lady, Spectator, Shadow Tribune (2 Death), Revive Dusk Elder, Wraith Centurion (3 Death), Revive Wraith Senator (4 Death), Revive Wraith Consul (5 Death) T'ien Ch'i (Base) - Celestial Soldiers (2 Air, 1 Astral), Celestial Servant (1 Earth, 1 Astral), Flight (2 Air) T'ien Ch'i (Spring and Autumn) - Demon of Heavenly Rivers (1 Water, 1 Astral), Demon of Heavenly Fires (1 Fire, 1 Astral), Spirit Mastery (1 Death), Flight (2 Air) T'ien Ch'i (Barbarian Kings) - Celestial Soldiers (2 Air, 1 Astral), Celestial Servant (1 Earth, 1 Astral), Spirit Mastery (1 Death), Flight (2 Air) Disclaimer: Any initial spell selection can be edited by custom scenarios or maps created by fan or developers. These are merely the default standard. [ February 03, 2004, 19:24: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Here are some that I remember without checking.
Ermor (Base): Body Ethereal Ermor (Ashen): Raise Skeletons, Wailing ladies, Duskelders, Bishops, Lictors etc Ermor (Soul Gate): Dark Knowledge, Wailing ladies, Duskelder, Spectator, Wailing lady, Wraith Centurion/Senator/Consul C'tis (Miasma): Bog Beast, decay? Vanheim (Helheim): Reanimation Jotun (Niefelheim): Illwinter, Breath of winter? Marignon (Diabolical Faith): Demon Jester T'ien Ch'i (Base): Flight, Celestial Servant/Soldier (Spring and Autumn): Flight, Demon of Heavenly Rivers/Fires, Spirit Mastery Machaka: Blindness, Seven Year Fever |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Hah! Only took me an hour, I was too curious.
Could I get this stickied, or maybe a thread called "Manual Errata" and post it in there? Seems some races got the shaft http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Just curious as to why none of the generic themes (Especially say ... Golem Cult or Water Cult) didn't get at least a token initial spell. Like Mechanical Men, or others? They do cost 50 Design points. [ November 22, 2003, 09:42: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
You might want to add.............
DISCLAIMER: Special maps have an option to change starting spells for use with that map. Hmmm something along that line. Alot of the lists might want such a disclaimer. Starting troops, starting sites, starting spells. [ November 22, 2003, 14:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
>Vanheim (Midgard) - Ghost Wolves (3 Air)
This is odd considering that they don't start with air-3 mages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Exactly. But it's there. They can cast it regardless I think, but it fatigues them mucho grande.
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
The air-2 mages would be able to cast it with an air gem. I don't think it's worth it.
Only the air-2 mages that got a lucky air pick from the randoms would get to use the free research. That's pretty weak. I must suspect that the theme had air-3 mages at one time, but was changed. The pre-research should have been changed also. |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
No, they didn't have 3-air mages, but they had Phantasmal Warriors. They should perhaps have both spells. On the other hand, the theme is not a weak one in my opinion.
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
>No, they didn't have 3-air mages, but they had Phantasmal Warriors.
That makes sense. >They should perhaps have both spells. On the other hand, the theme is not a weak one in my opinion. I agree. It's a strong theme. I'd say they should get Phantasmal Warriors only. It's weak, but useable. |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
if Mictlan could get a starting level 1 blood spell it would be better IMO.
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Alright; just another question here in terms of "why this?"
Why do all T'ien Ch'i have Flight? There is no national mage that can cast it unless you get a lucky pick or useless(S&A have flying Celestial Masters). The only hero that can use it is the Master of the Iron Crutch. Perhaps if Flight was a Commander only Ritual spell that give permaflight or some spell to replace it. Maybe I just don't see the usefulness of that particular spell being a "initial spell". Even thematic. |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
As another note, I think standard theme would get considerably stronger if it could cast any of its national spells without needing a 250 gold celestial master with a random pick in air or earth. Unless your pretender can summon them its going to be awhile before you see any celestial beings.
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Yes... TC national spells are weak. I've never seen much point in casting flight in the first place; it's just another thing to script that takes the place of a useful spell. Plus nobody can cast it. If CM's had 2 air so they could actually cast celestial warriors... or (even better) 2 random so that 1 in 4 instead of 1 in 8 could cast it... it might be a quite useful summon=)
Why do they get 2 water, 1 air (and the Master of the Way 1 water, 0 air) when it seems to be such an air-focussed nation? |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Perhaps more OT than the other questions...why not give Mictlan Bind Serpent Fiend? The prime advantage to serpent fiends over other blood spells seems to be that lvl 1 blood mages can cast it...it gives Mictlan an early blood summon without having to build 200+ gold mages to cast it. I don't see it making Mictlan too powerful, and it might give them the boost they need.
[ December 13, 2003, 00:11: Message edited by: LordArioch ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
I am going to post and update a "Summary of Strengths and Weaknesses" along with each theme. When posted, I would hope that if you have any objections or insertations you could please PM them to me; so I can update it in a timely manner.
Please remember that this Summary is only to give an idea of the theme and it's difference from the basic Race. It is in no way, shape, or form a guide; just a representation of differences. (For you Liga!) |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
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[ February 03, 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
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thkx zen, really useful! you got my 5 stars! |
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Sabbath/Communion is a game mechanic that when Sabbath (or Communion) Master is cast they are the leader of a group of casters that are pooling their magic to make it stronger. Why they are interchangable is because Communion is an Astral Spell while Sabbath is a Blood spell. When Sabbath/Communion Slave is cast, they are the slave in the communion. When a unit is the Sabbath/Communion Master they recieve +1 to all magical paths (Any magic they have, including Holy/Unholy) for 2 slaves, +2 for 4 slaves, +3 for 8 slaves, +4 for 16 slaves (etc) in the Communion. Also any spell that is cast by the Master the fatigue is equally distributed among the slaves. (Please note: When any unit gets 200+ Fatigue they start getting afflictions and potentially die) You can have more than one Sabbath/Communion Master in a Communion as well as any number of slaves (though you may see why you would want an multiple of 2). Example: 2 Astrologers (3 Astral, 1 Water Each) cast Communion Master while 4 Mystics cast Communion Slave. Suddenly the 2 Astrologers have 5 Astral, 3 Water each, and when they cast spells the fatigue is given to the Mystics (who can still cast spells btw) I hope you can see the uses of this, especially when you look at the spell lists. Also remember, that having a higher magic skill than the spell costs reduces it's fatigue cost (Per your manual) so this can also be a factor in using communion/sabbath. So in that context (With Machaka) having alot of different but low magical skills on their mages makes them versatile, but won't allow them to cast the better/more powerful spells because they don't have blood/astral as one of them (thus they can't lead a communion/sabbath). Also you will note other portions of the guide will say "Cheap Sabbath/Communion Slaves" or "Expensive Sabbath/Communion Slaves" this is regards to how much gold it costs to produce someone with a single path in either Astral of Blood to use in a communion. Did that answer you question? Edit: Massive Update soon that will cover nearly all the nations/themes. I've been having some writer's block and there is alot of information to sift through while trying to just break down the strengths and weaknesses. Apology in advance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Changed Communion/Sabbath, I almost never use more than 4 so it slipped my mind it was a log instead of a multiple. And by my spelling, still very tired http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif [ January 14, 2004, 09:27: Message edited by: Zen ] |
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2 slaves: +1 4 slaves: +2 8 slaves: +3 16 slaves: +4 ... |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Yes, that answers my question, thanks.
It's just that there is so much to do in the game, and so much reading on these Boards I'm not sure I'll ever understand everything concerning the game. Hell, I've only won one game out of about 8-10 I've played so far (with the one victory I was playing Ermor - Ashen Empire). |
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
I've edited the topic because my Strengths and Weaknesses Guide is taking too long and it's actually more like a manual. I'll use the sticky to refer to the two topics above.
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Blessing Effects
This is based off the initial magic levels of a Nation/Themes pretender. This is hardwired into your nation and even if you Empower your Pretender or your Pretender dies and the value is changed for his magic, the blessing will stay the same as when the Pretender was created. ALL - Morale +3 Fire 4 - Attack Skill +2 Fire 6 - Attack Skill +3 Fire 8 - Attack Skill +4 Fire 9 - Flaming Weapons (8 Armor Piercing Fire Damage added to weapons) Fire 10 - Attack Skill +5 Air 4 - Air Shield (20%) Air 5 - Air Shield (30%) Air 6 - Air Shield (40%) Air 7 - Air Shield (50%) Air 8 - Air Shield (60%) Air 9 - Shock resistance (75%), Air Shield (70%) Air 10 - Air Shield (80%) Water 4 - Defense Skill +2 Water 6 - Defense Skill +3 Water 8 - Defense Skill +4 Water 9 - "Heroic" Quickness (+50% Increase in Action Points, allows two attacks/casts) Water 10 - Defense Skill +5 Earth 4 - Reinvigoration 2 Earth 6 - Reinvigoration 3 Earth 8 - Reinvigoration 4 Earth 9 - Protection +4 (Natural Protection) Earth 10 - Reinvigoration 5 Astral 4 - Magic Resistance +1 (Max 18) Astral 6 - Magic Resistance +2 Astral 8 - Magic Resistance +3 Astral 9 - Twist Fate (Completely avoid first hit on the unit) Astral 10 - Magic Resistance +4 Death 4 - Lesser Fear -3 Death 6 - Lesser Fear -2 Death 8 - Lesser Fear -1 Death 9 - Life after Death (Non-undead units who die are animated as souless and retain most of their abilities (magic paths) but lose their resistances [Fire, shock, cold, poison]), Cause Fear* (Undead beings only) Death 10 - Cause Fear +1 (Even for Living Units) Nature 4 - Berserk +1 Nature 6 - Berserk +2 Nature 8 - Berserk +3 Nature 9 - Regeneration, Poison Resistance (50%) Nature 10 - Berserk +4 Blood 4 - Strength +2 Blood 6 - Strength +3 Blood 8 - Strength +4 Blood 9 - Death Curse (The unit that kills the blessed unit will be *Cursed* as the spell of the same name) Blood 10 - Strength +5 Starting Spells Mictian (Base) - Bind Fiend (2 Blood), Bind Spine Devil (2 Blood) Abysia (Base and Blood of Humans) - Flare (3 Fire) Atlantian (Base) - Friendly Currents (2 Water) Pythium (Base) - Communion Master (1 Astral), Communion Slave (1 Astral) Pythium (Serpent Cult) - Horned Serpents (1 Nature) Arcoscephale (Base)- Astral Window (2 Astral) Machaka (Base) - Seven Year Fever (1 Nature, 1 Fire), Blindness (1 Fire) R'lyeh (Base) - Mind Burn (2 Astral) Man (Base and Last of the Tuatha) - Soothing Song (All "Song" 1 Nature), Healing Song, Song of Bravery, Sleep (2 Nature) Pangaea (Base and New Era) - Tune of Fear (All "Tune" 1 Nature), Tune of Growth, Tune of Dancing Death, Panic (2 Nature) Pangaea (Carrion Woods) - Carrion Lord (3 Nature, 2 Death), Carrion Lady (2 Nature, 1 Death), Carrion Centaur (1 Nature, 1 Death) Ulm (Base and Iron Faith) - Legions of Steel (3 Earth) Ulm (Black Forest) - Sanguine Heritage (3 Death, 3 Blood) C'tis (Base) - Terror (3 Death) C'tis (Desert Tombs) - Revive Tomb Consort (1 Death), Revive Tomb Priest (2 Death), Revive Tomb King (3 Death), Terror (3 Death) C'tis (Miasma) - Summon Bog Beast (2 Nature, 2 Water), Terror (3 Death) Caelum (Base and Return of the Raptors) - Wind Guide (2 Air) Marignon (Base, Fires of the Faith, Conquerors of the Sea) - Holy Pyre (2 Fire) Marignon (Diabolical Faith) - Bind Harlequin (1 Blood) Vanheim (Base) - Phantasmal Warrior (1 Air) Vanheim (Midgard) - Ghost Wolves (3 Air) Vanheim (Helheim) - Phantasmal Warrior (1 Air), Reanimation (1 Death) Jotunheim (Base) - Reanimation (1 Death), Curse (1 Astral, 1 Nature) Jotunheim (Niefelheim) - Illwinter (5 Blood, 2 Water), Breath of Winter (2 Water) Jotunheim (Utgard) - Luck (1 Astral), Curse (1 Astral, 1 Nature) Ermor (Base) - Body Ethereal (1 Astral) Ermor (Ashen Empire) - Revive Lictor, Censar, Bishop, Acolyte, Wailing Lady, Spectator (2 Death), Revive Arch Bishop, Dusk Elder (3 Death), Raise Skeletons (2 Death) Ermor (Soul Gate) - Dark Knowledge (1 Death), Revive Wailing Lady, Spectator, Shadow Tribune (2 Death), Revive Dusk Elder, Wraith Centurion (3 Death), Revive Wraith Senator (4 Death), Revive Wraith Consul (5 Death) T'ien Ch'i (Base) - Celestial Soldiers (2 Air, 1 Astral), Celestial Servant (1 Earth, 1 Astral), Flight (2 Air) T'ien Ch'i (Spring and Autumn) - Demon of Heavenly Rivers (1 Water, 1 Astral), Demon of Heavenly Fires (1 Fire, 1 Astral), Spirit Mastery (1 Death), Flight (2 Air) T'ien Ch'i (Barbarian Kings) - Celestial Soldiers (2 Air, 1 Astral), Celestial Servant (1 Earth, 1 Astral), Spirit Mastery (1 Death), Flight (2 Air) Disclaimer: Any initial spell selection can be edited by custom scenarios or maps created by fan or developers. These are merely the default standard. [ March 02, 2004, 06:34: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
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It has the added effect of drawing humans deeper and deeper into the game until completely addicted. They begin to plan game strategies while they're at work. They begin to have dreams of total dominion, and nightmares of being vanquished by some other pretender to the throne. Productivity levels drop, unpaid bills pile up, household chores are neglected.... some people are even affected so badly that they sit at their computer while their bladder swells to the point of near-rupture, yet they refuse to go to the bathroom! His evil plan does not stop there, however, oh no! The Moloch effect will begin to make you have a strong desire to design your own game mods, make your own maps, write walkthroughs and guides, spend untold hours at gameplay, browsing this forum, and replying to every thread where you have the least bit of information to pass on. All for the sole purpose of drawing ever more and more humans into his domain. I urge you to re-read the description of him given in-game: "The Moloch is an infernal angel called or sent from beyond. Winged and dressed in horror, he will crush this world and make its inhabitants slaughter one another and suffer the torments of the Inferno. The Moloch will surely shatter the world unless he is vanquished." It's too late now...the Moloch will not stop until he has gained total dominion! "The Moloch made me do it!" [ February 03, 2004, 20:49: Message edited by: Targa ] |
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Well that explains alot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
I wonder if one of the names the Moloch goes by is "El Malfador"?* SE4's pretty addictive too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
*Doesn't that mean "The Troublemaker" in Spanish? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Another helpful fact for those who didn't have the hard numbers.
Research Per Level Easy 1) 15 2) 20 3) 40 4) 60 5) 100 6) 160 7) 260 8) 420 9) 680 Normal 1) 20 2) 40 3) 60 4) 100 5) 160 6) 260 7) 420 8) 680 9) 1100 As you can see from Level 5 on to 9 it's the sum of the two levels before it. [ February 20, 2004, 20:51: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Zen, are you sure about the "normal" research rate from 1 to 2 ? I'm pretty sure it's 40, not 30, so the function is
Level N cost = cost of level N-1 + cost of level N-2 starting with level 3... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
yup, I second the 40 RPs for level 2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
CharonJr |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
I apologize if this is a stupid question, but
What is "Reinvigoration"? Thanks, - Matt Lepinski :-> |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Reinvigoration is the amount of fatigue that is regenerated by the unit even while conscious. So Reinvigoration: 2 will allow the unit to heal 2 fatigue every round. When you get above 100 fatigue, you become unconsious and regain 5 + Reinvigoration per round and become conscious (able to cast spells/attack) when you get below 100 Fatigue.
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Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Zen-
Are you still planning to release a "Strengths/Weaknesses" document? I'm sure many would get *HUGE* benefit from such a thing. Myself included of course. |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Oh Demo, yes, it's on the list. It's actually weighing in around 23 pages right now. I'm certain it will be the death of me. Every time I get the will to start writing on it, I come across something interesting or something more urgent comes to mind and I get distracted. Comes from not having a deadline or an editor I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I'm thinking by the end of the month I'll have the entire thing ready. Just getting it so it doesn't feel like you are swimming through a wasteland of grammar and sentance structure. |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Zen - C'tis Desert Tombs doesn't start w/ Terror, though Hell knows they need it.
also, Water 9 gives +4 defense, not +3 attact/defense AFAICT. [ March 01, 2004, 18:15: Message edited by: archaeolept ] |
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They may have had it previously. I haven't updated the starting spells to recheck everything. I'll go ahead and go through again and look.
[ March 02, 2004, 06:34: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Blessing Effects and National/Theme Starting Spells
Water-9 Blessing quickness is 50% Heroic quickness, not Magical quickness. Magical quickness gives +3 att / +3 def and 2X attacks / moves; Heroic quickness only gives increased increased attacks and moves. The two are multiplicative. Water-9 itself gives +4 def, of course, so a Water-9 blessed unit with Boots of Quickness would have +3 attack and +7 defense, and 1.5 * 2 = 3X normal movement. That makes the unit very strong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Be wary of quickness. It is not good for high-encumbrance units, since they tire at double (or 1.5x) the normal rate. Earth-blessing does not help much, since reinvigoration is not affected by quickness. Life-draining attacks solve the problem. In other words, do not give quickness to a supercombattant with 6 encumbrance and 6 reinvigoration, or it will pass out eventually (gaining 6 fatigue per round). |
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