Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

Most people say ligth inf isn't worth it - crappy protection, low combat stats and morale, so they're beatn up pretty fast with heavy losses (and the AI building droves of them doesn't help her either).

Here's a fix that (maybe) is easier to implement than "formations" for all troop types:

A Light inf unit shouldn't move into a square where a unit from the same squad is already present - just if they where of oger-size.

This way they
- cover more front line with less troops
- are harder to take out with archery/area effect spells
- could pass through each other (squad-wise), so you could stack them behind each other with "fire and flee"-order and they would charge forward, fire and retreat without getting stuck

Or wouldn't this work for some reason ?

A.

[ November 23, 2003, 07:00: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This isn't good for LI that has standards for morale support such as Pythium's, as the effect is not very long ranged. It also would not look right to see legions with large amounts of spacing between troops.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

Its an interesting idea and perhaps not to hard to action. I think having LI more spread out would look cool and be more accurate.

The problem might be that LI will not be able to interpenetrate other infantry with this restriction. Perhaps LI should only avoid moving into the same square as another LI?

Cheers

Keir

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

I still say that Spearmen were used against Cavalry.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dunno about this. Maybe the programmers could give some comment if this would have a severe detrimental effect.
Than, on the other hand, maybe this doesn't apply...

Quote:

It also would not look right to see legions with large amounts of spacing between troops.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Legions", or more precise, "legionarii" aren't light inf. - neither in DOM-terms nor in the more precise military/historian/wargamer terms.
E.g. the "War Game Rules, 3000BC to 1485 AD", Wargames Research Group -I can only wholeheartedly suggest reading those - depict them as follows:

Rome since Camillus (275-105 BC)
Velites - LI - regular C - WLS,Sch o. LSP,WLS
Hastati - SI - regular C - SWW,Sch
Principes - SI - regular C - SWW,Sch
Triarii - SI - regular B - LSP,Sch

Rome since Marius (105BC -193AD)
Praetori..(?) - SI - SSW,Sch - regular A
Legionarii - SI - SSW,Sch - regular C
--------------------------------------------
LI:
fight in open formation (closed-"aerated"-open);
move in trott(? - sorry, don't know the correct terms for the different paces), attack while running
SI:
figth in closed formation, move in step(?), attack in trott

... there's also super-heavy, light-heavy, medium and medium-light inf, but i don't want to digress http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


WLS: Throwing- and light spear, can be 1 or 2 ("ammo:"1 or2; DOMs 3 seems excessive to me)
Sch: shield
LSP: longspear (thrusting)
SWW: heavy throwing weapon (released at the very Last moment before hand-to-hand combat),always used with short-ranged hand weapon

regular ..
commanded by officers, have (at least some) military drill & training, can move in formations

A - highest moral class, absolute elite
B - elite troops
C - standard troops
D - fresh recruits, garrison, 2nd-class units
-------------------------------------------------


So much about "legions don't look right", at least from the historical viewpoint ... .

And I'm strictly talking about LI here .. Velites, Indy light inf., Pangaea Sartyrs etc. .

But what bugges me more is if it would work, i.e. if it is double programm-wise and if it really would give some additional value to light troops by making a difference in combat.

What I envision is the following:
The fast LI chargest forward, throwing javelins and engaging in hand-to-hand, while the heavier inf. rolls up from behind in closed formation. Archers cannot target the heavy inf., as "nearest target" will let them (ineffectivly) shoot at the LI. After some (2..3) turns of battle the LI retreats behind the main line, passing through the HI with relativ ease, and holds, guarding the rear from flyers and break-throughs.

A.

PS: .. you may also check out the WRG's OoBs for "Han Chinese" and "Late Greek Hoplites" .. you'll get a feeling of deja-vu http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
For info on the rule set chech e.g. http://www.barr.karoo.net/hws/dbx/

[ November 23, 2003, 09:36: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I though about not moving into the same square with units of the same squad,
so differents squads from one commander or troops from different commanders could interpenetrate each other...

Could the game enigne handle this?

A.

[ November 23, 2003, 09:09: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Either somehting is coming through odd in the translation from german Stefan or you have an incredibly old WRG set of rules. I've played since 6th which came out in my teens, ~20 years ago, and I've never heard of the abbreviations you use.

Troop types:
LI - light infantry
MI/LMI - medium and light medium infantry
HI/LHI - heavy and light heavy infantry.
etc
and for weapons types:
HTW - heavy throwing weapons (legionaries)
JLS - Javelin and sometimes short spear
LTS - Long thrusting Spear
etc

Now day it mainly DBM and the old abbrevations are no more.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

I'd just like to add that if this change worked it could go along way towards coping with the HI complex. If you can screen your not so heavily armoured close fighters from archery with skirmishers, who take lighter casualties despite their low protection, then more troop types become useful in a greater variety of roles.

Cheers

Keir

[ November 23, 2003, 09:49: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">.. that's what I hope for ...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

2nd german edition, 1990 .. and my dictionary isn't really up to the task http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
So I didn't bother translating the abbr.

At least you get the picture ..

A.

[ November 23, 2003, 09:51: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1990 - I guess that would be the same as english language 7th ed.

I didn't know they were published in german but it makes perfect sense what with germany being the first place wargaming took off in europe.

Time for some therauputic Savaging and then sleep.

Machts gut http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Keir

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not currently, but it is a good solution. Part of the strength of the Roman legionary army was its manipular structure and a depth that enabled broken units to retreat behind the second or third rank to regroup. This way the enemies were constantly attacked by fresh soldiers. I am very fond of the manipular army, but the Dominions engine is not formation friendly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The suggested system would work well with human sized units, but giants would not be able to pass through their own ranks. Currently Giants (size 4 beings) are the only unit that allows other units to pass through as they do not fill up a square. I like this fact, but giants are not LI and thus it is a bit backwards. Still LI and wolf riders can retreat through the giant ranks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is a good point. How about a mechanic that would happen when the enemy approaches to melee range - if the enemy moving up clearly outmatch the friendly troops, and the friendly troops are faster then the approaching enemies, then the friendly troops step away (if possible), rather than letting themselves be hacked to bits. The units that step back would lose action points from their next turn equal to the distance they had to step back (so it's not a free increase in movement ability), and this would also reduce their effective speed for later checks (so surrounded fast units would still get caught).

This would also help freak accidents of the turn-based movement/combat, and other unfortunate plights, such as when a fast horse unit races out ahead, and gets hacked up by a mob of infantry, or if a bunch of infantry charge at a mage or mounted commander who could outrun them, but doesn't because it isn't in the AI script.

PvK

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

Giving units the ability to run away without routing would be a little powerful in the case of flying units. Caelum for example would be nearly uncatchable.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">archers: "fire at enemy flyers" ???

Thinking about it, it seems to me that this would make sense very well - realism and all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

A.

[ November 23, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Such a change allowing LI to skirmish would be great! Perhaps as an order, which spread them out to one unit per square, and allowed them to fire a few turns before falling back to regroup behind HI.

I realize interpenetration might be difficult in the tactical engine, but even without it the skirmish order would be a dramatic improvement. One could also fudge interpenetration by having units flee around troops in their way, rather than blindly fleeing straight back.

It would also help if those retreating from winning battles didn't scatter.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

Well, in order to make LI something else than just CI (crappy Infantry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ), it should have the advantages that it had historically :
- Loose formation, using more space, less affected by area fire and arrow volleys
- Bonuses when attacking from flank/rear - this should apply to all troops, but LI would benefit from their formation and speed to flank HI
- ABILITY TO REFUSE CLOSE COMBAT against heavier troops - this one is very important IMHO. For examples the role of Roman Velites was to fight enemy skirmishers, fire javelins on the enemy front ranks, and then retreat, not to engage Hannibal phalanx or elephants frontally http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif !

I'm not sure all this can be done without a serious overhaul of the combat/battle system, but as it stands now LI is quite hopeless ...

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not currently, but it is a good solution. ... I am very fond of the manipular army, but the Dominions engine is not formation friendly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So there's a chance that it will be implemented in the patch?

Maybe there should be more checks for units:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not moving LI in squares where another unit of the same squad already is</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not moving into squares where some damaging area effect is active (poison, auras)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not moving right up to an enemy without having enough AP left to attack him (this could get a bit tricky, though. But even one square would be better than it is now, where my troops regularly line themselves up to be killed in the next combat turn)</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Three flies to be squashed with the same piece of code ??

A.

[ November 28, 2003, 10:58: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe they would need some changes (higher costs, less power, etc...), but it only reflect common sense : I wonder how a landlubber swordsman can ever catch a flyer who refuses combat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !
MoM and AoW have nice features about it : non-flyers can only engage other non-flyers, only flyers can engage all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">MoM also had that timeout on combat which I abused ALOT. I loved to take flyers in and cast "confuse" or whatever that one was that opened a chasm. If it didnt work I just waited out the combat then tried again. Realistic? I guess so. But way too useful.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

Please allow me to add my 2 cents even though my copy of D2 has shipped but not yet arrived. LI should be unencumbered. By that I mean light weapons only and no armor. There would be two advantages. First, speed. They should be the poor mans cavalry with excellent flanking ability. Second, defense. They should be harder to hit than their more heavily armored (read slower) bretheren. I agree with the other points regarding refusing combat against slower attackers and a skirmish formation, if possible, to reduce any impact from ranged weapons/spells.

If all this is in the game already then just ignore this rambling. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We're not talking about generic troops here. There are lots of nation-specific troops which are quite different from each other. Some have a spear only, some have spear, javelin, shield, helmet and armor, yet all "qualifiy" as light infantry.

And encumbrance does not influence movement speed, at least unless the (fixed) unit stats reflect this. There wouldn't be any change to the speed if you change a units encumbrance on the battlefield, but it does get more fatigue.

Quote:

First, speed. They should be the poor mans cavalry with excellent flanking ability.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Light infantry does have higher strategic and battle speed, so when retreating it most times can run away from heavier troops successfully.

Quote:

Second, defense. They should be harder to hit than their more heavily armored (read slower) bretheren.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most LI does have 1 or 2 points more defences, but I'm not shure if it really makes a difference.

A.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Encumbrance itself might not, but having armor or not does in fact affect the battle movement speed. Try casting Armor of Achilles on Ulmish units and see who's going to get to the end of the map first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for defense points, they are deduced as part of the armor stats. So yes, having more protection for armor usually means more chance to be hit in melee as well. Defense doesn't work with missiles though, and this is where high protection values (and shields) come much handier.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does anybody know how shields do exactly work?
Is it a %-tage to block incoming missiles or what?
If it is, does it stack with "air shield" (spell, items, bless) ?

A.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. We don't know what the formula that is used to calculate a hit with a missile weapon is either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The old Dom1 manual says that distance, precision, attack skill, maximum range of the weapon, size of the unit, number of units in the square, and shields all factor in the chance of hitting a square first, and then hitting the unit in the square. But nothing else than that.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

If the missile hits a square there is a chance that a unit will get hit. This is more or less an attack roll vs shield defense (prec or def of the units does not count). Few units in the square reduces chances. Not sure how.

Hmm, I should not speak if I don't know the answer, but maybe someone understood something.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's odd. I'd sure move slower in full plate than in a loincloth.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

If I was in a loincloth I wouldn't be moving as fast as possible to the enemy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'd let that full plate guy get up in there long before I ever saw the pointy end of a sword.

Go go Dominions psychology.

Re: Suggestion: How to beef up light inf
 

Armor does slow down units in Doms I and II (e.g., Ulm plate infantry advances in battle more slowly than their chainmail infantry, etc), and make less armored fighters get tired less quickly and less likely to be hit in melee combat.

There are two main problems. One, which may not be a problem depending on point of view, is that there aren't many light inf types with low enough costs to make them much more efficient to produce, in many or most situations. Tweaking up or down some resource and/or gold costs could help.

The other problem is the way the AI and the movement/combat system combine to let light inf (or worse, horse archers) enter a heavy inf meat grinder when they shouldn't. If the AI and/or movement/combat system would arrange it so that faster/weaker units with room to back away, would avoid fighting fearsome HI, then LI and horse archer types would skirmish much more effectively.

Naturally, it'd be possible to do it badly and create a system where flyers were invincible or something, but Illwinter has shown plenty of skill in avoiding problems like that. Faster stand-off archers or skirmishers should be able to retreat when threatened by slower melee units, though. A flier using a hand weapon would still have to risk getting hit if they move up to swinging range.

PvK