A new idea for magic scales
 

On that other scale thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Saber mentioned that high magic scales provide diminishing returns - going from 4 RP to 5 is bigger than from 5 to 6 or 6 to 7. (The cost of a research point can be approximated as (commander's maintenance cost)/(commander's research ability) - of course this neglects pretenders, who have no maintenance costs, but usually have many other things to do with their time.)

I thought of an interesting idea for high magic scales to provide an appropriate, useful and cool benefit: magical talent. In provinces with a magic scale, magical talent pervades the populace, causing some mages to be born with greater than usual magical ability.

Whenever any mage is recruited (not summoned) in any province with a magic scale there is a chance (I propose 5% per level of magic) that he (or she, as appropriate) will be talented. A talented mage gets +1 power to one randomly selected path of magic he already has (after taking random picks into account). One-path mages (like Anathemants) will get a predictable bonus, and many-path mages (like Masters of Five Elements) will get an unpredictable bonus.

I've never been happy with magic scales only helping research and not helping actual use of magic. Talent would change that - a talented Anathemant Dragon would have more powerful fire spells, for less fatigue cost, and have access to spells his untalented brethren wouldn't. But even with magic 3, on average you would have to buy 7 AD (a cost of over 2000) to get a talented one.

Players with a strong magic scale would probably get some talented mages over the course of a game, but not very many. But players with no magic scale wouldn't get any.

Talent is the equivalent of a "free" empowerment - except that you can't choose whom to empower (if most of the mages you hire are sages, most of your talented mages will be talented sages) or in what path. Furthermore there is only a small chance of getting it and only when you buy mages (which are expensive to begin with).

So I think this is interesting, not too powerful, and adds an attractive advantage to the otherwise insufficiently rewarding high magic scales.

Now that I thought of this idea, I like it better than Saber's and my other ideas about extra gem income or reduced gem costs for rituals, forging, empowerment etc. It gives the talented mages more individuality, and therefore makes magic scales more interesting (as well as more useful) to play.

(Note: this wouldn't benefit Ashen Empire, Soul Gates or Carrion Woods much, since those themes summon more of their mages. Those themes seem to be powerful enough anyway.)

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or maybe mages and priests, too... priests are more expensive in Doms II, and do kinda use magic. But getting a random astral on an otherwise healthy priest or mage would be annoying=)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe so, but why put in one new cool scale effect when you can have lots of cool new scale effects? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Why don't you give a full -3 to +3 magic scale statistical rundown of what a player would expect? Right now I'm a little confused about drain, since obviously you couldn't have a less than zero chance of getting talented mages.

P.S. Aside from the astral thing, I think this would be more useful if it gave totally random magic, opening up new fields to a nation with talented, curious mages. Possibly weighted toward, but not exclusive to, existing paths.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool idea! The way you've put it, it seems fun, not unbalancing, and does give magic scales a boost - and designs I've seen posted never do seem to emphasize magic scales. Myself, I often take magic +1 if I have inexpensive mages.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While I know what you mean, this isn't strictly true, since using batlle magic in friendly magic dominion does reduce fatigue and enemy magic resistance.

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

Priest powers should absolutely not be included in this bonus. Holy/Unholy magic is done with prayers and is not in any way like a conventional path. There are no gems needed nor is there a fatigue cost. Priests can't even reaserch. That means the bonus from magic scales don't apply to priests except for the magic resistance. I'm not excluding priest/mage commanders, but holy/unholy magic should not be included in the bonus.

Futhermore, +1 magic from 3 to 4 makes the mage twice as strong. There are many very good spells at lvl 4 compared to lvl 3. Magic -1 -2 and -3 could give a 5, 10, 15% chance of a mage losing a level in a random path.

I'm not against it or for it, but I only demand that priest paths not be included.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:45: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

I like this idea, although I agree with Chris the random paths should be restricted to what one already has. Drain doesn't need any extra penalty, as it already increasingly decrements.

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

A bit off topic, but another thought is that magic/drain could also effect the arrival of heroes.

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif What would be worse than buying a level-1 mage and randomly getting no magic? Not good.

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

I like Chris's idea - quirky, useful but hard to exploit.

I agree that priests should be kept seperate. Holy/unholy powers are not part of my view of what a magic scale affects.

Cheers

Keir

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif What would be worse than buying a level-1 mage and randomly getting no magic? Not good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dood, ok... I'm just saying stuff. All I care about is that holy/unholy paths have no chance of getting a +1 bonus. And once again, I am not for or against the idea.

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice idea! Magic scales are not on top of my list when designing a nation, this would certainly make it worth investing.

Suggestion: New ability "Talented: [path]", where [path] is one of the static paths of the nation. Probability should be somewhat high to make it appealing enough, somewhere in the region of 10%/scale (too much?). Effect would be the like the talented mage is using a appropriate gem for the casting. They could be scripted to cast higher-power spells and additional gems (if used) go toward fatigue reduction. They still couldn't cast [path]+2 spells. Small implementation (I hope), minor thing, major lure.

- Humer

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, a magic scale does help the use of magic on the battlefield, as it reduces fatigue drastically.

Quote:

Talent would change that

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have another idea. Why not give mages a penetration bonus when it comes to casting resistable rituals - like Mind Hunt - just like their target's MR is modified by the magic/drain scale of the province he's in?

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +1 +1 0 0 0 -1 -1

A magic scale could even help penetrating magical domes:

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +5% +5% 0% 0% 0% -5% -5%

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or maybe mages and priests, too... priests are more expensive in Doms II, and do kinda use magic. But getting a random astral on an otherwise healthy priest or mage would be annoying=)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I actually thought of a similar effect for priests based on dominion strength instead of magic scale (5% chance of bonus priest level per candle above 7), but didn't include it because of the length of my original post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for the random astral - that's one reason I limited it to paths the mage already has. The other is to keep standard Pangaea from getting too much versatility - their lack of randoms is a balance factor, forcing them to rely on indies or their pretender to branch out into other magic paths. Since I often take magic with them so that Dryads are better researchers, letting them get Dryads with randoms (even occasionally) might be too good.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe so, but why put in one new cool scale effect when you can have lots of cool new scale effects? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Two reasons: it's easier to implement one thing at a time, and it's easier to balance one thing at a time.

Boring, I know. But practical. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I briefly entertained the idea of anti-talent in drain dominions, but discarded it as too damaging - strong drain is bad enough already, that's part of the point of your original post.

Drain 3: -3 research, +1 MR
Drain 2: -2 research, +1 MR
Drain 1: -1 research, +0 MR
Neutral: +0 research, +0 MR
Magic 1: +1 research, +0 MR, 5% Talent
Magic 2: +2 research, -1 MR, 10% Talent
Magic 3: +3 research, -1 MR, 15% Talent

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that would be too good for nations that have limited magical versatility to balance out their other strengths. Especially since it also gives you randoms on cheap mages (Marignon Initiates, Theurg Acolytes, etc.) - with my original proposal they can only get reinforcement in their existing path.

Nations with limited natural mage versatility would still have to rely on their pretender, site-based mages, druids, amazons or amber clan tritons (any other population-based mages?) to branch out. I don't think that's unduly difficult.

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, a magic scale does help the use of magic on the battlefield, as it reduces fatigue drastically.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How drastically? If you have any hard data, by all means share it. The manual has far fewer nuts and bolts than I expected (sorry Psitticine, but I want to know all the formulae! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ); although it does cover the basic fatigue calculation well (which already puts it a step ahead of a lot of manuals these days), it doesn't say anything about the effect of magic/drain scales on the calculation.

In any case, AFAIK the bonus affects both sides equally, making it less than impressive; and much of the most important casting is ritual, which isn't affected at all. (AFAIK, a few rituals are affected by the MR modifier - if the target is in your dominion.)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have another idea. Why not give mages a penetration bonus when it comes to casting resistable rituals - like Mind Hunt - just like their target's MR is modified by the magic/drain scale of the province he's in?

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +1 +1 0 0 0 -1 -1

A magic scale could even help penetrating magical domes:

Magic +3 +2 +1 0 -1 -2 -3 Drain (origin)
Bonus +5% +5% 0% 0% 0% -5% -5% </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think this would help enough. Resistable rituals represent a tiny fraction of all uses of magic, or even of off-battlefield magic. Also, both of your tables show no extra benefit at magic +3, which is exactly the level that is really not worth it under the present system (has the lowest proportional research effect of any 1-point change and is already after you have gotten all MR modifier you can get). In fact it's possible that +3 magic should get you talent 20% (instead of 15%) for exactly this reason.

At least your suggestion is biased toward the owner, though - the battlefield MR modifier lowers the MR of the god's own troops as much as it does the enemy. Gee, I really want to pay points for that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: A new idea for magic scales
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How drastically? If you have any hard data, by all means share it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If it hasn't changed since Doms 1, it's 10% less (more) fatigue when fighting in a magic (drain) dominion - so under drain+3 spells cause roughly twice the fatigue they cause under magic+3, eg 130 vs 70 for a 100 fat. one.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
It sure isn't gamebreaking, but you shouldn't underestimate it either. If you're playing a magic nation, the fatigue reduction compounding with the better research rate (and therefore the earlier availability of your mages once you've researched your first battle spells) can give a welcome boost to your early expansion.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think this would help enough.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Personally I think magic is close enough to good as it is and doesn't further help. At least that's a bonus you can count on, while your "talent" suggestion might yield little or nothing if you're unlucky.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For god's sake, Chris, these tables were just an example based on the current (magic scale/MR mod) relationship, I can't believe you're ready to dismiss an idea just because these numbers don't please you. Make that +3/+2/+1/0/0/-1/-2 if you prefer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif