Tuatha Race
 

The Sidhe are dear to my heart - my central character in Ultima Online was a Sidhe. So I've been keen to get something going with the race and while I'm not convinced I can't do better with Van here goes what I'm playing with right now.
--------------------------
"The Quick or the Dead"

Blue Dragon, Water 9. Dominion 6.
Sloth 1, luck 1, magic 1.
Fortified City.

The key unit is the Daoine Sidhe warriors who work a treat with quikness and a def of 19 when blessed. The Cu Sidhe make good fast build supporting troops when you have extra gold and few resources - use with care though. For archer bait I use the starting troops plus build more axemen when needed

For early commanders I use my initial Castallien as my prophet and Sidhe Champions and monks. I tried Sidhe Lords but didn't feel I could justify the extra cost.

The Blue Dragon researches up to alteration 2 for quikness and then heads off to help the expansion. Might be better sometimes to head straight out but its seems tidier to get quickness first.

Difficult to get a good feel for the expansion rate as I'm still getting the hang of minimising casualties and what exactly you have to be afraid of. You can beat some normally hard to beat provinces but are vunerable to high attack troops and Xbow. My cleanest expansion saw me well ahead of the +1 province per turn by the 10th turn (indies 5) but with a pitiful gold income due to starting in the wastes at the bottom of the Aran map. As a consequence I didn't have enough gold to buy defenses to discourage the AI from attacking and got lured into an early war.

Overall the race looks fairly promising though the troops require great care early and the right magic support later to get the best out of them - anti-archery is important and the race has rthe right paths. A race than can get a decent start, has access to air magic, and has magic scale +1 can't be all bad.

One alternative is to run sloth2, order1, and make more use of the Cu Sidhe.

Cheers

Keir

[ November 26, 2003, 04:41: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Tuatha Race
 

I tried something similar and didn't really get much mileage out of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Blue Dragon, Water 9, Dominion 4.
Order 2, Luck 1, Magic 1
Fortress

I'd prefer the castle, but it left me with Order 1 and 24 pts left over.

Dominion is a bit low for mass producing sacred troops. I was hoping cheap temples would help here, plus Dominion is expensive for Pretenders starting with 1. Perhaps I'd be better off tweaking to get higher dominion.

I had several general problems. The Sidhe warriors are great at staying alive, but not very potent! They're also fairly vulnerable to missiles, without anything really stellar to use as missile bait.

I had better sucess in a short test using the Red Dragon instead. The sidhe were still fairly surviveable, but now had some potency. The Red dragon also worked better for expansion, due to a combination of a strong Fire Shield, and not missing attacks. The Blue dragon finished off it's opponents too slow, and thus got hurt more often.

The magic scale isn't really stellar as Tuatha's cheapest mage is 140. Plus I felt compelled to take Order, which minimizes any benefit from luck. My main fear with this race is that it's a little income poor, and while it's troops can be effective against independents and AI, it feels like it has weaknesses that real opponents would capitolize on. It also doesn't really have good troops outside of the Sidhe.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A very different race to play I suspect despite some similarities.

The big difference between our races is the dominion - dom4 is just too low for my liking and unable to meaningfully use the Cu Sidhe so significantly slower than Dom6. Don't underestimate the extra speed the Cu Sidhe (1 resource!) give you if you can grab some decent gold producing provinces early. Also with dom 4 you will only be able to build 4 Sidhe a turn - thats not enough. I'm not sure 6 is enough in the long term.

I was actually very impressed with the kill speed of the quickened Sidhe and in my tests tried walking straight on into HC provinces early with decent success. I suspect it could be a critical mass for the job question. Obviously fireweapons etc is quicker at killing but producing so few each turn I want to try and keep them alive as much as possible. I'm not saying the Red Dragon is not a good idea its just doesn't fit my view of Sidhe.

Regarding arrow catching I deploy the army a bit back from the start point (varies according to range of missiles opponent has) with Axe on hold and attack in the middle and Sidhe on attack on one or both flank - both catches attackers better and keeps them away from the Axemen. I have found this approach satisfactory as long as I leave behind the big Xbow provinces!

140pt researchers who bring in 5 points are decent - ~30pts per research. And then what happens if you find sages? Even if you don't find sages you are sure to find some independent mages who research well and free up the Sidhe for war. The key is that you have a decent starting speed and the ongoing power that comes with the bless effect on the Sidhe without having taken a serious drain scale. This means good things in the long term compared to many races which arn't much faster earlier.

Did you research quickness for the Blue Dragon when you tried it Jasper? I haven't had an affliction yet with the Dragon and as its always operating with Sidhe, and often taking out archers etc at the back, its not a high risk pretender strategy - though there obviously is a risk.

The biggest thing I found with this race is that you really need to practice hard to get a good feel of what independants to attack when. Get this right and I believe this race could be competitive.

cheers

Keir

Re: Tuatha Race
 

Oh master race designers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ...what's this about using 5 research mages for 140...why not just build bards instead? They're only 75 and get 4 research...their upkeep isn't halved by sacred, but they're nice for early research and some simple protection spells on your sidhe do wonders, raising their protection up to a very respectable 20. Also the bard is a spy and a standard of course...you lose the air magic and the upkeep is the same, but early bards leave a lot more money for sidhe.

I seemed to be doing decently with my tuatha, even though I had a light bless and relied mainly on longbows for growth. And then all three adjacent AI players attacked over a period of three turns and the game went downhill rather quickly. My armies can't stand that long against joint enemy strikes on every border province.

[ November 26, 2003, 06:58: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Bards are indeed very cute and I would build them early except they can neither bless nor lead an army and the barrier on building Sidhe is resources early not gold - sloth1 or 2 are what I've tried. While Sidhe Champions cost in resources they are better value than Daoine Sidhe per resource. You would not have had to worry about this so much relying longbows.

Building one commmander a turn early its a monk for bless plus moving a few troops around or a Sidhe Champion for leading armies and fighting. If the golds coming in nicely the Champion helps research quickness while they wait for a new army to assemble. Another bonus to building Sidhe Champions early is they quickly get into the hall of fame and get a heroic ability.

However you have made a very good point I overlooked - if you don't find Sages early build Bards when it comes time to invest in a real research program research - say sometime after turn 10. This is particularily strong with an even higher magic scale and I can see why you love Bards. The fact that I can't find room to build them early is one of the sacrifices in my present design.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not of the opinion that Tuatha need powerful bless effects and as you say in time you can turn the Daoine Sidhe into super troops with magic. I'm just having fun with bless effects right now because they weren't in Dom1.

If only Man got the Lady of Fortune as a pretender! With the enforced luck on the Tuatha theme its sorta sad we can't try and maximise the return from luck plus get the added security of extra fortune in our home province. She would also be a great bless effect pretender. I haven't yet discovered the appeal of the Mother of the Tuathas who is perhaps why Man don't get the Lady of Fortune. I wish the Mother of Tuathas was not so good and more affordable as Tuatha doesn't have alot of room to move when it comes to design points.

cheers

Keir

[ November 26, 2003, 08:55: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">D'oh! I had it lodged in my mind that the Bards were for the default theme only. This definitely improves the value of magic, although as Keir says you're still better off with Champions early on when you have just one fort.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not concentrating solely on the Sidhe, as longbows can be usefull for expansion too. 4 Sidhe + 1 Champion is 280, which is more than I can afford early on anyway. 10 temples will let you go to 6 Sidhe + Lord later on is 490, which is plenty to spend.

Basically, I made the trade off to get less Sidhe, but more income and hence stuff overall. I effectively decided not to use the Cu weren't as well.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmmm. You may be right about the critical mass, as I may have been a bit too aggressive. I only tried it briefly, but the extra power seemed to do ok with less Sidhe.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's basically what I do too. I typically prefer to have somewith a little more armor do it though. I suspect this may be much less effective against players however, as it'll be harder to predict where their archers are.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahhhh. I did have Quickness, but had the dragon operating alone, taking on moderate to weak provinces. The Blue dragon seems much less suited to this than the Red Dragon. The Green Dragon seems even better due to Regeneration, although it requires more research and I haven't tried it with Tuatha. I'm not sure whether or not Nature 9 bless would be effective on Sidhe...

[ November 26, 2003, 10:23: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've was lamenting not having the Lady of Fortune with Pangaea too, although she doesn't really fit for them.

I don't much care for the Mother of Tuatha's either. Her Attack/Defense aren't terribly high, Man has plenty of Air Magic already, and the Mirror image isn't a big deal without Stealth. If she had stealth like all of the other Sidhe she would be cool!

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Funny thing is I've decide the best usage for my starting Longbows is to but them out the front in the first battle and save myself 5gps a turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Perhaps I should give longbow based expansion a go but they just combo so badly with the Sidhe. I want to start building Sidhe early to get enough for later. A large part of my plan is not to lose Sidhe but rather to steadily build an uber army or two.

Its important only to take the provinces that matter - you can even stealth past a blocking province to take a gold rich province with a Daoine and Cu Sidhe force.

I am hoping that the Cu Sidhe are the key to accelerating early expansion as they are thematically suberb, oustandingly fast on the battle board, really easy to build, have a good defense when blessed, and good offense - especially with quickness. I definitly don't want any Longbow near my Cu Sidhe.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Berserk is not going to work well as the key with the Sidhe (or Van) is not to get hit. Once you get hit and lose your glamour they generally die fast - especially with a lowered defense.

Its a real shame you can't set a target for "attack one turn" or you could go quickness, change shape, attack one turn rearmost, fire, fire, and fry the rear zones without danger of friendly fire. As it is I can't get the Blue Dragon to use its breath weapon - just seems to ignore the fire order. What am I doing wrong?

cheers

Keir

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Funny thing is I've decide the best usage for my starting Longbows is to but them out the front in the first battle and save myself 5gps a turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Perhaps I should give longbow based expansion a go but they just combo so badly with the Sidhe. I want to start building Sidhe early to get enough for later. A large part of my plan is not to lose Sidhe but rather to steadily build an uber army or two.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Build two armies. One province a turn isn't enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyway, Man national longbows have better precision than indies; I haven't had that much trouble with friendly fire yet. (Of course I paired them with some HI mercs and used them early, before I could afford a substantial force of Daoine Sidhe.)

Currently I have some axemen/longspears in front, Daoine throwing javelins (they will automatically close after that) and longbows behind that. Although there might be some friendly fire to the infantry, the Daoine are unlikely to take much if any; and they're positioned to move into close combat if the infantry rout. That way most of my losses come from the cheap units, and the Daoine keep racking up exp from javelin kills.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't used the Cu yet - it seems to me that they would be most effective massed, which seems like it would require a Sidhe Lord or Tuatha prophet for Divine Blessing. Since I decided to make my initial Castellan my initial prophet (I like this more in Dom II because it takes longer to save up for that high level priest you might have wanted to prophetize in Dom I - especially if you also want mercs or troops for early expansion) and he hasn't died yet, Priest 4 isn't yet an option.

On the other hand, I don't have a water blessing either (Nature 9 White Bull, worked great until he tried to take a province by himself the same turn 15 Jotuns had the same idea. Even a 200 hp, regenerating, size 6 trampler has a bit of trouble trampling 15 Jotuns to death by himself.)

I wouldn't expect water to do the Sidhe much good - their defense is already so high that they're only going to get hit by (a) people who get a really lucky attack roll (I don't think you can squeeze much more out of that) or (b) missiles. On the other hand they have decent prot, so with a nature blessing, a lot of missiles will just make them mad (and with regen, are unlikely to cause afflictions or bring them down by accumulating damage). But then, I'm not a fan of defense in general - too easy to negate it with a good roll, and beating defense by 1 gets you a hit for full damage.

Of course the nature blessing is kind of wasted against Jotunheim, but against anything else I think it'll work well.

Air wouldn't be bad either - maybe I'll try the Mother of Tuathas. (Although I heard someone else post that she wasn't stealthy - is this a bug? Allfather gets the full set of Van abilities including sailing...)

Earth could be interesting too - reinvig for all your mages (except bards), and +4 prot for the Sidhe if you take it to 9. Wouldn't do the Cu much good though. Earth is also a good choice for combat gods (IMO) for invulnerability (and depending on your targets, blade wind).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Berserk is not going to work well as the key with the Sidhe (or Van) is not to get hit. Once you get hit and lose your glamour they generally die fast - especially with a lowered defense.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Berserking lowers their defense to about 16 - still a tough target for most units - and raises their prot to, IIRC, 17. Add regeneration to that and I haven't seen them "die fast".

10 Daoine and a Champion beat about 15 Jotuns with only 3 losses (some were militia though). I think one of the Jotuns might have made it off the field. Although I'm not sure how many actually went berserk - but Jotuns are the worst case for a nature blessing anyway, since they will usually kill even armored units in one hit. I've never lost a Daoine to indies with nature 9, or even gotten an affliction yet.

I think you underestimate the survivability of the Sidhe.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe it can't use fire order because it is in close combat?


A couple more comments about the Tuatha theme:

Daoine Sidhe have great precision and above average strength. Javelins in general are pretty effective in Dom II, but Sidhe javelins are really impressive. I've killed Jotuns with them. Also, Sidhe Champions, Lords and Tuathas are really impressive with magic bows because of their high precision - and they can cast both Eagle Eyes and Aim (which stack!). Not so coincidentally, some of the best bows are Air.


Last of the Tuatha shouldn't get Brangwen the Blind One - she's an Avalon witch. Aren't there any Tuatha heroes for them to get instead?

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't found them to be so bad, but then I'm not using Cu.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find them to be too fragile, and I quickly get up to maximum Daoine recruitment anyway.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

Very interesting post Chris.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure - Two Sidhe based armies! I have been giving bow a bit of a try and I've found some useful exceptions (shortbow + Niefel giant seems a very important combo due to adding siege capability to giants) but I still don't like bow. The arrows move so slow that watching replaying is sad and I'm not at all happy with the modelling of bows capabilities - long range relative to frontage of armies, exagerated abilty to shoot overhead, overly generous targeting and poor accuracy combines to make bow really odd in dominions. Add in friendly fire and I'd rather avoid bow if it doesn't hurt me badly to do so.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm guessing this is the big difference in our experiance - having mercenaries soak up friendly fire never hurts to bad. I'm playing all my race tests without mercenaries just to get a feel of what they are like by themselves.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Very nice. I do similar with Mictlan but being Mictlan it doesn't work quite so well. If only Tien Ch'i HC had less ammo they could do the same.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find myself using the starting Castallen as well. I haven't had probelms with getting things blessed, and sermon of courage is enough, due to all the priesting getting quickness as a bless effect of water9.

I'm not so interested in the Cu Sidhe later as then I'd rather build Daoine Sidhe - its early when I can't build as many Daoine Sidhe that I slip Cu Sidhe into the queue. I'm happy using any of these sacred troops in small/tiny units if I've only got a few and I'm in a hurry.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My understanding of the maths is that something with a attack of 10-12 is going to find the Daoine Sidhe, at 15-16 def, very hittable while at 19-20 they are extremely hard to hit. You are aiming for a difference of 8 or better to reduce their chance of hitting and as Daoine Sidhe are small they don't get ganged up on badly making them really rather special - same with Ctis Dancers. I like Quickness to - especially on mages/Archer lords.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I remember your objections http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As I'm a fan of the Van I'm not entirely convinced.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tried Air9 and was seriously underimpressed. I was left wondering wether the Air shields worked vs friendly fire as I killed my Sidhe faster than the opposition. May just have been bad luck.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Earth is almost always good in my testing of bless races. Once you take Earth Nature looks more appealling as the Sidhe's prot is high enough that berserk is, IMO, more useful. I have come around to the Earth Mother being the next option to try for the Van but I don't like how often I turn to her.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They start with def 15 and drop from there, prot 13 and the berserk takes it to 16 - very borderline. Regeneration of 1hp a turn is not going to keep them alive.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have experimented a fair bit with Sidhe (with a variety of blessings) and found that quickened Sidhe can charge Knights and beat them, they slaughter Jotun, and I certainly don't lose them in droves. When one does get hit it generally dies then or soon after due to having lost its glamour - but most never get hit. As alot of them die in one hit it strikes me that nature is not an a great choice especially as your mages are sacred and while they fight well you may have other plans than a berserk charge in response to slight provocation.

Earth and Water, both good for your sacred mages, are, for me, more appealling than Nature. Nature just doesn't seem overly suited to the Sidhe. Remember water gives your Sidhe Champions and Lords quickness and, as you point out, they get eagle eye and aim and . . . and . . . and . . .

So water providing double speed shooting and casting for insanely accurate Sidhe is my pick so far with earth the big one to explore more.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Damn - didn't think that a dragon wouldn't be able to breath fire because its in combat. so how do you use the breath?

cheers

Keir

Re: Tuatha Race
 

If you'd like a good indy expansion not based on the Tuatha you can use the standard Man approach.

It might be something you use in tandem with your Tuatha ideas.

1 Sacrificial Lamb Axeman, Tower Guard, etc. Place just 1 and have him hold and attack. He will only be hit by minimum missle fire, more often than not this little guy survives.

20-40 Longbows middle front, about 2 spaces away from your initial lamb. They will mow and rout things before they get to them, even HI and HC. And even if they do get close, they become even more deadly.

Keep extra Axemen, Towerguard at the very back on Hold and attack with your commander. They are just extra in case your Lamb gets killed.

You can make one of these armies every 3 turns and they can take out most indies, no problem and your quick expansion doesn't have to use any precious Tuatha that will get mowed down by your Longbowmen.

Just an Idea.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought Water 9 gave 150% quickness?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I get dragons to breath simply by placing them along ways back with fire orders. The breath attacks are weak however, as their range is short and they often miss. I've played around with this, and all it seems to do is give any archers more chances to shoot at you.

I prefer to close to melee, as then you get first strike, are far less likely to miss, and the fear +5 kicks in.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which seems to work out as two spell actions a turn but, I think, only 1 extra attack every two rounds per attack you have. The Last part is very hard to be sure of.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Tuatha Race
 

I get a Mix of 1 and 2 spell actions per round, randomly for each commander.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

Does a translation of Sidhe, Daoine, Cu Sidhe exists? Or are they proper name? Feel free to translate me all the lexica used in the race http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tuatha Race
 

I'm pretty sure they're proper names from Celtic Myth, I believe taking place in what is today Ireland. In the same vein as Firbolg or Fomori, if you're familiar with them. A loose and possibly modern "translation" would be Fey or Faerie. In many game related material about Faeries I've read (e.g. for Ars Magica), Fey Nobles are often called Sidhe, and supposedly descended from the Tuatha de Danaan.

Hero Kings like Nauda of the Silver Arm were of the Tuatha de Danaan. Other main characters include The Dagda, Breas the Beautifull, Balor of the Evil Eye, The Morrigan, etc.

For a brief but entertainingly illustrated read, check out the "Book of Conquests" by Jim Fitzpatrick. Out of print, but the first (of two) volumes is still readily available Last I looked. It's not quite the real stuff, but IIRC he does list his sources.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check out the pronounciation thread for some clarifications.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

One of the minor thematic things that's always bothered me about Dominions is that while it seems to get things right with the Tuatha and Firbolg, this jarringly clashes with the Pixie-like Faerie Queen -- which seems staight out of a Victorian child's tale. Yuck!

If you're listening Kristoffer O., what were you smoking when (presumably) you came up with that one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

On the other hand, I'm quite happy with the theme of everything else that comes to mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tuatha Race
 

For those looking for a good source on Celtic mythology, check out James MacKillop's Dictionary of Celtic Mythology, published by Oxford. It's excellent: both highly detailed and carefully researched, and unlike many such books, tries to cover as many viewpoints as possible without breaking down into confusion. If you want to start with a single book, I couldn't recommend a better one.

There's also Peter Berresford Ellis' Dictionary of Irish Mythology, also published by Oxford. It is a bit trimmer and the text is somewhat more accessible. (Ellis is a writer of fiction as well, under another name, and his prose is a bit more flavorful, IMO.) It isn't nearly as expansive, however. Ellis also wrote a Dictionary of Celtic Mythology, but it has some issues due to poor editing after it left his hands. I hate to say it, but I'd recommend avoiding that one.

There are many other good texts, but those two are among my Favorites. They are readily available, inexpensive, unbiased, very knowledgable and well-written.

For those looking for a good bit of authentic Irish myth, you might try Thomas Kinsella's translation of the Tain bo Cuailnge, which is published simply as The Tain by (again) Oxford Books. Kinsella is a noted poet and expert on the language. His translation was done as carefully as possible to maintain the original flavor and feel. It also comes with extensive notes detailing his sources, various comments on the text, interpretations, and so forth. It is also an amazing action-adventure tale. One man versus an army led by a beautiful woman. Try and top that, Hollywood! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For those looking for a good snooze instead, you can try the research paper I once wrote on the Tain. It is a bit longer than the Dom II manual and makes for an excellent sleep-inducer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Tuatha Race
 

Thanks!

Re: Tuatha Race
 

Does Avalon exist in Irish mythology? I was under the impression it was more a Welsh/Arthurian thing.

Of course, I realize IW may have had to amalgamate mythologies a bit...I'm just curious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Tuatha Race
 

All this mythology talk is very interesting.
Makes me wish IW would have added a nation based on middle eastern myth .
I know that Arco is supposed to be based on the ancient Asirian empire.
But I really don't get that feeling with that nations units/heroes/gods names and overall feel.
Where is Gilgamesh for example?

Anyway, I would have loved a new nation based on either one of egyptian, hebrew, babilonian or persian myth.
They have some very interesting stories, believes etc.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Arco is based on the Greeks. You get Hopilites (Classical Greek) Hypastpists (Macedonian), Elephants (Alexandrian/Successor) and Chariots (Selucid or Geometric Greek). Somewhat eclectic but all in all Greek inspired.

I too would love an early Near East race - I'm a Late Bronze Age/Chariot warfare fiend. My first priority in hasselling Illwinter for more features in this respect is more Chariots for Tien Ch'i Spring and Autumn - might not be Late Bronze age but they are still Chariots.

Cheers

Keir

Cheers

Keir

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've read the name means "Isle of the Apples" and was originally derived from Gaelic, but it must have altered quite a bit on the trip. I can't find anything even vaguely supporting that etymology.

So, as far as I know, it is pretty much Arthurian. That cycle is quite distinct from the Celtic, as I'm sure you know, but there is enough overlap (such as Excalibur, whose name and nature is derived from Fergus mac Roich's sword Caladbolg) to justify unifying them in a framework such as the game.

For those who don't know the story, King Arthur was carried off to the Isle of Avalon, a place very much like the Celtic "Otherworld", after being mortally wounded. Like many other heroes, including Fionn mac Cumhail, he is said to be sleeping until the hour of his people's greatest need. (The "sleeping hero" is a very popular motiff in folk legend.)

Re: Tuatha Race
 

Just an addendum for those who might be curious:

I was browsing aimlessly through a book and came across a reference to Avalon and its "roots".

Emain Ablach (Ablach = "having apple trees") is the name of an island that is home to Manannan mac Lir, one of the most powerful of the Tuatha de Danaan/Sidhe. In the Imram Brain, one of the old sagas, the hero, Bran, quests to find the paradiscial isle (supposedly located somewhere off the coast of Scotland) after being presented a silver limb from one of the isle's apple trees by a mysterious and beautiful woman. The source I read this in (Mackillop's Dictionary of Celtic Mythology) describes Emain Ablach as "one of several Celtic contributions to the Arthurian concept of Avalon."

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<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not always. Hastati and Principes disappeared after Gaius Marius reformed the Roman army, yet they come equipped with segmented loricae which started to be widely used 2 centuries later.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not always. Hastati and Principes disappeared after Gaius Marius reformed the Roman army, yet they come equipped with segmented loricae which started to be widely used 2 centuries later. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You picked a particularily bad place to put your elipsis! This is much better:

"One of the minor thematic things that's always bothered me about Dominions is that while it seems to get things right with the _Tuatha_ and _Firbolg_..."

Note the distinct lack of reference to Rome... Besides, minor details like you mention are IMHO well within the scope of "designers license", especially considering the real Roman Army didn't have Serpent Cataphracts or Spectral Legionaires. More bothersome to me is how Triari are handled.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure these are minor details I can live happily with, and so are the Serpent Cataphracts etc. But if you can accept them, what's wrong with the Faery Queens and her "pixies"? You seemed to imply _these_ were out of the scope of designers license.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you are refering to the Triari having 1 strat move while everyone else has 2 making them move seperate I agree. If the Pythium gets strat move 2 for their Legionaries they should get it for the Triari as well.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Tuatha Race
 

That's exactly it! Republican Roman armies were composed of Hastati, Principes, and Triari -- not the first 2 plus the 3rd when they could catch up!

However considering that the Triari will be used for different tactics than in history (i.e. placed right smack in the middle of the front), it's not such a big deal. I just think of them as more heavily armed Legionaires, coincidentally called Triari.

Re: Tuatha Race
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Correct. I consider the paradox of using both the myth inspired Tuatha/Firbolg and the related but Victorian children's tales flavor Faerie Queen to be much further out of whack than an obscure detail about Legionaire's armor.

The Faerie Queen sticks out in sharp contrast to the strongly themed nature of the rest of dominions. May as well have the Little Mermaid as a hero for Atlantis.

Purely subjective opinion of course. Not much point in arguing about it.