Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Playing around with the demo while waiting on the post office to deliver. Not sure how much micromanaging of my armies and commanders is necessary or desirable?

First, commanders. Without specific orders they seem to cast spells until their fatigue is maxed out. That appears to cause troops under their command to rout but I may have that wrong. So I've been assigning most troops to a guy who gets an attack order and then letting other commanders cast what they will.

Second, armies. I try to group like units and give them appropriate orders and postions. Fighters in front, indirect fire behind that line, fast units on the flanks with orders to hit the rear. I'm sure there is a lot more subtlety here than I have grasped.

Anybody have some tricks they can reveal without giving away all their MP secrets? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Any help for a guy just learning the game would be appreciated. Thanks.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Useful tips;

The larger a squad (Men grouped together) the more morale it has.

Also it is the average morale of a group that is taken. So a unit that has naturally low morale (5) is put in a squad with 9 with high morale (15). The "Squad" morale would be 14. Use this on low morale but good units (Elephants, mammoths, etc) and those that have a high attrition rate (anything else). (This is why Standard Bearers are so good).

In general the AI is stupid about it's attack on certain positions and individuals. This is different for Independants and AI's then totally thrown for a loop vs other players.

Common AI tactics:

AI missle Users aim for "Closest"
AI fliers are usually set for "Attack Rear" or "Attack Archers", almost never "Hold and Attack".
AI Cavalry are set to "Closest" or "Large Monsters"

Those are just some of the more common that you can exploit.

Unless you script your mages; they are fairly inept and will cast spells they do not need to for any given situation. More often than not you have an initial casting string you'd prefer; though it's does not always happen that way as the computer does what it wants from time to time, especially if your casters are drawn close to an enemy.

Your commander will not rout if he is fatigued; but he or his squads will if he is hurt or killed.

So it's up to you to decide if you want to put all your eggs in one basket or give different commanders different squads.

Something you may want to start in the practice of is using units to 'guard commander' and place a reserve (A squad of units) Over your commander stack, wherever it is positioned. This will allow you to guard your otherwise fragile commanders. For melee commanders you want to try to keep out of combat but have no spells try "Hold, Hold, Hold, Hold, Hold, Stay behind troops"

That's all I can think of off the top of my befuddled mind. Need to sleep.

Edit: I also forgot if you use CTRL and a # it will reserve that command string for you to place by just hitting the number. (Example: Hover over a string you created that says; "Summon Earthpower, Blade Wind, Blade Wind, Blade Wind, Cast spells" press CTRL+1, then all you have to do is go down your mage line that you want to have that command string and press 1 over their command fields. Works for all units and commander scripts

[ November 29, 2003, 11:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Blue line represents fatigue, green line represents poison and red line hits.

Commanders do go unconscious upon hitting 100+ fatigue and won't do anything until fatigue goes back to below 100. At 200+ they take damage and will soon die.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Thanks Treebeard. You don't see any morale indicator then?

I know some of the answers are in the manual and mine is on the way so feel free to reply with RTFM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Hopefully I'll have one to read on Monday.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Thanks Zen Didn't know about the morale averaging but I'll certainly watch that from now on.

Is the blue line that appears under a unit morale loss and red is hits taken?

I did use a couple of better units to guard my commander.

Scripting spells does seem like a must to get the most out of magic Users. Otherwise, as you say, they don't always make sensible choices.

I did see fatigue up over 100 for some commanders but I thought they would go unconcious at 100?

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

I've tried several times in the demo to get my cavalry to flank my opponent and attack his rear units. Inevitably they turn too early and attack the closest units instead. Anyone know if this works correctly in the full game (which I hope to have tomorrow)?

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

The game has a hard time differentiating what is rear, and it attacks the 'front' of the rear squad/units. Something I have found that works is putting my flankers further on the grid to the south or north (Example shown below where I'd put something I wanted to flank and attack rear, of course this doesn't work if he has something on his flank attacking)

________
X


________


I think that units or squads have a "if something gets within XYZ amount of squares, attack it" type of behavior. So if you keep them as far away from other units as possible they will get a better shot at going what you are hoping for (Archers, Rearmost).

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Thanks Zen. I did have my flankers about as far out as they could go althoug not toward the back as your pic implies (if I follow you). If they do end up attacking the "rear" of the closest group is there a morale hit to the defenders or bonus to the attakcers? IOW does facing make any difference in the game?

[ November 30, 2003, 22:56: Message edited by: Elmo ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Attack rearmost does not automatrically attack the rearmost, intentionally so. There is a chance that a unit with "attack rearmost" will try to attack the very rearmost, if that chance 'fails' it will try for the second rearmost and so on. This means that if the opponent only has a single unit in the rear and all the rest in the front there is a very real possibility that he will be ignored. On the other hand if they do choose the single unit hiding in the rear he will be without bodyguard or other units helping him out. This means that it might also be a good idea to put a few units on hold behind important commanders as a sort of rearguard.

[ November 30, 2003, 23:00: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

The board doesn't put in spaces. It was supposed to be near the front http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The diagram is slightly askew. But as Johan said it's good that you can't always have something attack the rearmost. And a common tactic is to put a reserve slightly behind, atop or in front of your Commander pile to distract any squads/fliers from killing your commanders and causing an automatic rout.

I consider it being akin to an actual General. You can tell your soliders where you want them and what they are to do; but how they react is based on the men (Or in this case the AI). You just have to learn the ins and outs.

I don't know if having a unit rear or flank a squad causes a morale check; but I know it does allow more attacks vs a squad thus more attrition thus more morale failure. It also doesn't allow a larger squad to sweep around the ends and engulf a smaller squad, as the computer will have extra units that are not allowed an attack to go around the edges to try to get in the mix.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Thanks johan. Sorry if my earlier post made it sound like there was a bug. The docs for the demo are pretty sparse so it looked like a problem since I have yet to see my flankers go after the rear most unit(s).

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Thanks Zen. I also need to learn how to use the Hold command. Right now I end up getting my forward troops hit with too many arrows/javelins from the guys in the second rank. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

PS - What happens if both sides have multiple Hold orders? Will one side or both attack after those set orders expire?

[ November 30, 2003, 23:25: Message edited by: Elmo ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Units (not commanders) Only have a Hold and Attack command and then a type you want them ato attack after they hold (Closest, rearmost, etc.).

Both will perform their orders and hold. Something you may be trying that isn't working for you is using Hold and Attack with a unit with a Javalin, because an Attack comand with someone with a javalin means they will not use it.

Friendly fire is a part of Dom2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Unfortunately a large part expecially if you arn't spacing and setting your units correctly. Try using default commands and not spacing your troops very far apart to get better results with Javalins. More often than not they will get 1 or 2 volley's of Javalins before they are able to engage, unless they are going up against other Javalin units with the same orders, or Archers, which will mow them down unless you are using the decent Pithium ranks.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The more I play, the more I find this to be a really big problem. Right now, I am starting to become too terrified to use any missile troops in my armies, because of the butchering of the pursuers they might do when the fight is nearing an end. I equiped one of my commanders with Bow of War, and right now I think he killed more of my fliers and demons than he killed enemy troops by far.

Something like "Fire and attack" and "Fire and hold" orders would go a long way to improve the usability of missile troops and combo troops (such as Tien Chi cavalry and legionaires) in the game. "Fire and attack" would be great for strong troops who are good at both roles, or good at melee and just happen to have a missile weapon as well. "Fire and hold" would be great for everybody else, since you don't really want them firing in the crowd once the lines crash anyway, unless you're using wards (which are not that easy to come by for just any army). You would get the most out of your missiles, as they tend to count when the field is open to soften up opposition, and reduce friendly fire significantly. All the components for the orders are already there, so I guess it wouldn't be too hard to code either.

As it is now, friendly fire, along with the AI not building any forts and hence not fielding any national troops, are two of my biggest gripes, to a point that they hamper my enjoyment of the game. I am seriously considering composing missile-only and missile-free armies, as this is the only way I can make sure nobody gets killed who wasn't intended to be. This also renders spells like Flaming arrows useless, since I know who will be on the receiving end of them. In short, it's limiting diversity of the game options for me, and I'm beginning to think that waiting for a patch to continue playing might be a good idea - something I don't like.

[ December 01, 2003, 10:34: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

HJ

While reading your post I kept thinking of Braveheart where Longshanks fires on his own men as well as the Scots. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Seriously though, can you set your front line troops to Hold while the guys behind use up their ammo or do indirect fire troops have unlimited ammo? I've only played the demo so far and don't know the answer.

Regarding forts, I could have sworn I saw the AI build them in my Last demo game.

Elmo

[ December 01, 2003, 10:19: Message edited by: Elmo ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They will hold for only a couple of turns, while the ammo will Last for much longer with virtually anything other than javelins. The most serious problems arise when your troops are chasing the routers - missile units fire regardless, and since most of the troops in the area are yours, and they are far away so projectiles fly all over the place..... it's not pretty.

In any case, these are my gripes. Some people have others, like inability to adjust battle speed, which don't bother me personally, but these I mentioned do indeed.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Yeah I've lost troops to my own arrows when they are pursuing a routed enemy. Just chalked it up to fog of war but I'm going to experiment with the full game when I get it to see if micromanaging can reduce those losses. Just thinking out loud here but can you put the archers out front so they fire and then retire back through your lines?

I also have not had a problem with replay speed but most of my battles have been realtively small. I just hit "Q" once the outcome is obvious and then go read the final re**** to get the head count. Maybe I miss something doing that though?

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At the moment, you can order them to "Fire and flee". This will result in them fleeing from the battle entirely, meaning they'll end up being scattered in the neighbouring provinces as they would if you lost. This is supposed to be redone in the patch, so that they stay with the army after they've fled the field. But I still think that something of a sort I suggested would be much better, as you could still use them in battle after they've stopped firing as a Last-ditch defense if they are holding ground. And if your cavalry archers fled, you wouldn't be able to use their melee capability at all, and this is where "Fire and attack" comes in. But if you're thinking TW skirmish ability, no, nothing of a sort is possible.

As for replay speed & watching battles - I guess it's a personal thing. Some people play for the results, or have viewed the battles so many times so that they have lost interest. I tend to enjoy watching them, as they are the main point of the game, IMHO. Not so much because of the improving my effectivness of play, but because I like it, and I watch even the most insignificant battle just because I enjoy them. Being able to speed up battles wouldn't hurt, but it's definitely not a showstopper for me.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Thanks for the help everyone.

Would you say the tactical battles use a rock-scissors-paper approach? IOW each type of unit generally can kill another type but in turn gets killed by something else. For example: swordsmen generally kill archers, archers kill cavalry, cavalry kill swordsmen.

What I'm fishing for is whether there is one unit that is powerful across the board or whether each has strengths and weaknesses. In AoW:SM flyers have been generally regarded as overpowered compared to most other units. Just wondering about D2, although I know the game hasn't been out that long.

HJ - Yes the MTW tactical engine in D2 would be awesome although I'm sure it won't be happening. Maybe in D3... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would say that the situation is much more complicated than that. There isn't a clear-cut rock paper scissors approach, and it'd a good thing, IMHO. There are just too many options for it to be possible. Also, there are counters to everything, and many of them too, but they are also less than clear-cut. The game doesn't revolve around troop types as much as you would expect when you look at other games. Generally, the heavier the troop, the more effective it is. But then, heavy troops are expensive, and the relative amount of light troops that you can buy for the same cost may overwhelm the heavy troop. And the heavies are slow on the main map, making them vulnerable to manouver war. And then there are super-potent troops, such as supercombatant pretenders or big summons, but there are also counters to them. And there is magic, which can be used in myriad of ways. One powerful mage may defeat an entire army with luck, but one stray arrow might kill him, for example. And so on, the options for gameplay are vast.
In short, you cannot look at just the troop types, as in MTW, AoE, or AoM, because so many things act in synchrony, and things like magic and items add further layers of complexity to the gameplay. Some things might be stronger than the others, but eventually there isn't anything that cannot be countered, while at the same time there are many ways to approach on how to do it.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Sounds bewildering. Excellent! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Leaving now to go camp by the mailbox. Is there a spell for turning the mailman into a hamster if he doesn't deliver?

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, but the spell "Iron pigs" comes to mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">HJ, stop whining. I always use light troops and archers in the same army. You need to know how to setup your army. It's virtually problemless when I play Dominions 2.

Only commanders can use the Hold and Fire command. It really sucks there isn't a Hold and Fire for units. I'd like my javelin units to Hold and Fire so they don't rush to the enemy and forget to fire their javelins before engaging in melee combat. I always hated my archers running up closer to the enemy if they were too far away.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would suggest that you refrain to responding to my Posts if you cannot do it in a civilized manner. If you have a problem with me personally, please feel free to PM me. Or even better, just don't bother and skip my Posts. I'd do the same for yours.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you provide some details on your setup please?

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you provide some details on your setup please? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont keep very good notes but things I remember trying effectively were settings archers on the flanks.

For javelins/slingers/crossbows I think I had interesting results when I put a commander near the front for the moral boost. I had him on hold-and-fire or hold-and-attack, one of those. The low-range shooting units were set on guard-commander. The result was amazingly effective in that particular fight.

I often use guard commander for more control on units so that I can use the commanders instructions to decide at what point in the battle to do certain things. Such as holding cavalry or flyers around long enough to get blessed before attacking.

-- WARNING: Flu symptoms have been detected. My Posts will begin to ramble and may result in garbage. Or feverish genius. Let me know which after I fully recover.
- Gandalf Parker

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Putting some units on Guard Commander did make them an effective reserve when I then used the commander orders to indirectly control them.

One disappointment though was when I put a mounted commander on the flank with my cavalry. He had a Stay Behind Troops order and I assumed he would stay behind the closest troops, i.e. the cavalry directly in front of him. Nope, he immediately moved away toward the larger force in the middle. Guess I should have given the cavalry group a Guard Commander order and then told the mounted commander to attack. Will have to see if that works.

Take care Gandalf, there is a lot of flu going around already this year.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK Gandalf, this flu seems to be rather effective. I seemed to remember Pocus complaining about missile troops on "Guard Commander" not using their missile weapons, so your suggestion surprised me. I tried setting up such a fight, and indeed, "Guard Commanders" prevents them from firing; I tried with light missile troops (Peltats) to see if it made a difference, and no, it doesn't.

So, when you recover, I'd still be interested in hearing about your missile tactics... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

(Me, I'm happy with archers and heavily armored shock troops on Hold and Attack when against non-missile happy AIs; but then, this probably won't work too well against human opponents)

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

ARCHERS ARCHERS------------MELEE MELEE
ARCHERS ARCHERS------------MELEE MELEE
ARCHERS ARCHERS--LIGHT LIGHT
ARCHERS ARCHERS--LIGHT LIGHT


That's my setup. I put the archers behind the light infantry, and the melee units infront and to the side of the light infantry.

Enemy archers (especially in neutral provinces) fire at the closest thing to them. The archers will fire at the melee (more protected) units.

I set the archers to fire at none so they don't fire at retreating units.

Enemy melee moves in, light infantry fire javelins from the side, melee units take the hits, VUALA!!! You have yourself an army setup which takes the least casualties from friendly and foe.

Not only that, the light infantry don't usually get in melee contact so the friendly-fire arrows will usually not hit your light units.

[ December 01, 2003, 18:38: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Sorry about guard thing. Must be a memory of how I WISH it worked.

What about the fire-and-flee? Something about using fast light archers set up front to draw enemy hvy units back thru a gauntlet of your own hvy troops. Force his to run and pile up fatigue instead of yours. That might be where I remember having flanking archers being really effective.

Battle Simulation map available at...
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion...ions2/Mini.map
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion...ions2/Mini.tga

[ December 01, 2003, 19:11: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Now that my copy of D2 has arrived I'll definitely be checking out your simulator. Thanks Gandalf.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

And if I were getting basically free troops (Son of Niefel winter wolves, Ermor undead masses, Mictlan slaves, "random event" militia) I might stick them way upfront to soak up the early missiles, spells, and lance attacks.
"Ave Caesar! Morituri te salutant!", shout those stuck in front. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Light infantry with javelins has everything "build in" apart from the ability to avoid combat with heavy troops and retreat behind the own lines.

Simply make shure there are only javelin-equiped troops in the squad.

Set them to "fire at closest".

They'll charge forward until in firing range, than release the first javelins.

After exhausting their ammo (javelins have ammo 3), or when the enemy comes to close, they'll start melee combat with the closest foe. Sometimes the front line will engage while the back units are still "firing off" their javelins.

Found it to work pretty well with the indie LI.

A.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can you explain how that works? i try to edit the .map file but since computers are extremely un-cool, it downloads and opens as a text file except it adds a bunch of: (weird square things which don't seem to appear when pasted here)

and also makes it one long line of text. There is no spacing whatsoever when I download it. Could you change that extension to maybe .txt? maybe my computer wont download and do some ecrypting crap.

[ December 02, 2003, 03:16: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Actually all the map files are that way. Its a unix text file instead of a dos one. The best thing is to open it using WordPad instead of Notepad if you have windows. Resave it as a dos text file if you want to.

As to editing it... You need to get the AllView game from the SunRay site to get the numbers for the units. I just added a couple of armies to 2 provinces but you can add as many armies as you want.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Actually, could you talk to me in some messenger? I don't entirely know how to do what you are saying

AIM: Argitoth
ICQ: 169752168
MSN: Argitoth@hotmail.com
Yahoo: Argitoth

I also have IRC if you want to meet me in some channel.

[ December 02, 2003, 03:25: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Where would that website be?

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

www.freewebs.com/sunray_dom2/

The Dom2 Library.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

This website is pretty cool, but where is the list of units and their code number thing?

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is the game at the bottom that says "All the units, by Alex Poger". You have to download the game, play it and it has all the units numbered in the game in one province.

Sigh.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry like most system admins I have none of those. I have email and newsGroups.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

I have been playing Citeas, the Bird Nation. They have lots of cheap archers and flying infantry. I end up slaughtering my infantry with archery every time. Any suggestions? Going without missile fire is not the option I am looking for, though when you get that storm spell that shuts down missile fire, it is a choice.

Also, I have been using attack rearmost all the time in an effort to take out the commanders. Every time I have witnessed the attack, they hit the rear of the charging ground forces. Given that the flyers are pretty light weight, especially when attacking non-ice dominions, I was really hoping that the attacks on the commanders would make up for their short life expectancy. Between not hitting the commanders and getting pelted with their own arrow fire, it is just not that interesting.

Has anyone got any suggestions?

I would also agree with some of the proposed changes previously listed in this thread, some more options for missile troops would be nice.

Re: Micromanaging armies and commanders
 

Gandalf, unless something has changed, troops on bodyguard are not able to fire their missile weapons. I preached many time to have this bug fixed, to no avail. Perhaps in a coming patch?

I think I noted 2 errors in the thread:

- a commander which is hurt or killed *wont* make his squad rout.
- a commander in the midst of a formation *wont* boost the moral of the units, except if he is a standard (but only because of that).

Here is my solution to prevent your archers from advancing against the enemy. You will see, its very easy. Recruit size 5 or 6 commanders. Place them on the battlefield in an empty box formation. have them on hold 5 time order. Put your archers into the square. The poor fellows wont be able to move before the 6th round. Kinda cool and easy to do no? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

edit :oops sorry I posted without having read the Last page. My bad! - So Gandalf, no I'm not harassing you. Hope your flu has disapeared...

[ December 10, 2003, 11:12: Message edited by: Pocus ]