Caelum tips?
 

I really want to like this nation. Flying units, and I'm a big fan of air magic. But I'm having trouble figuring out how to get off the ground (so to speak) with them.

The Spine Horn Warriors you start the game with seem incredibly weak, and this weakness is exacerbated by the fact that, since they can fly, they rush off to exposed positions far ahead of any mercenaries or non-national troops and get slaughtered. Maybe I need tips on how to handle infantry that can fly.

The AI seems to handle them well, since Caelum always seems to do pretty well when I'm not playing them.

Advice please?

Re: Caelum tips?
 

The mammoths are very good, if somewhat unreliable, versus independents.

[ November 30, 2003, 23:51: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Caelum tips?
 

Land Armies vs Independants composed of Wingless/Mammoths work well.

You *can* use your initial units for patrolling since they count double and get yourself a good sized army.

Iceclads are somewhat unreliable since they have such low hit points, but remember that map movement of 3.

The mages are inexpensive (175 Gold) and can cast Quickness/LB/Thunderstrike.

For initial expansion look at a mammoth/wingless army, they trample quite well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Caelum tips?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, that was the way I was starting to go, but then I had to ask myself why I took Caelum in the first place http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If I'd wanted Arco, I would have taken Arco.

And the only blessable units can't fly. You want blessable who can fly, take Vanheim.

So you have to ask yourself what the point of this race is, no?

Re: Caelum tips?
 

Most of their normal non-Capital units fly. Are positivly affected by cold and have strong mages.

I don't know what the 'point' of the race is outside of a highly mobile, low hp race with a few things to compensate for it.

I thought you were asking for how to play them not why they were there.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

>You want blessable who can fly, take Vanheim.

Vanheim has no commanders for those flyers. Thus can't take advantage of the flyers strategic movement. (not easily at least)

As to why you should try Caelum...
A> Mammoths (possibly add wingless)
B> Flying raiding squads
C> Quickness, Aim, Orb Lightning (possibly toss in a wind guide). High Seraphs rock!

And that's just getting "warmed" up... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Caelum tips?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the High Seraph is quite a nice unit. Comparatively cheap, too.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

But if the "highly mobile" part basically sucks and you have to rely on the standard ground/big mama stuff to conquer provinces then isn't there a problem?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was asking for how to play them consistently with their theme as an airmobile nation. I already know how to play an elephant nation.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

You don't "have" to. And you may appreciate those land units if your opponent ever casts say ... Storm? Or has a Staff of Storms that applies before combat movement, or ... Perpetual Storm?

Against Independant units Mammoths and Wingless are very nice.

For the sacrifice of being able to fly, having high movement them being weaker in combat than a normal unit is perfectly acceptable if you don't take the standard "I'm stronger I kill youz" approach.

Maybe they take more finesse than you are used to and that is why you do not appreciate all the facets of it, I do not know.

If you want a totally flying army that can stand up to non-flying counterparts maybe you should submit a 'balance' or 'theme' request and not ask how to play what was placed before you.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

>I was asking for how to play them consistently with their theme as an airmobile nation.

I don't think you'll have much luck trying to play them as a total "airmobile" nation.

Rather, think of the flyers as special forces. On the strategic map they move three provinces. In tactical battles they fly over the main body and strike at archers/mages/commanders.


If you must try an airmobile theme, try the Rise of the Raptors theme and use Raven Guard. The second attack gives them extra punch, and they aren't cold dependent. Use a fast building fort so you can get enough resources to crank lots of them.

Still, I thnk you'll have better luck with a "combined arms" approach.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

[this reply is to Zen, not to Alex]
I don't think I'll reply to this as I'd like to or tempers will flare.

Sure, a flying unit should be weaker. It should not however be totally ineffective.

I think the problem is the tactical AI. Flying units RUSH to engage the next target if the main enemy line has been routed....far ahead of any supporting troops. And, more often than not, get decimated.

[ December 01, 2003, 01:32: Message edited by: Raen ]

Re: Caelum tips?
 

Did someone mention a "why use this" question? My territory. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Caelum can move a support army quickly.

They can use mercs or indeps to form a hold-attack front line, wait for the enemy to charge it, then attack at the rear.

Caelum as an AI loves to pester everyone with random attacks of "Call of the Wind". With alittle more intelligent targeting and followup that can be one effective tool.

Caelum can play checkers with the map. Use your scouts or dominion to find weak provinces. Jump OVER rougher indeps like knights and longbow. Caelum has the ability to bring up both mages and priests to build all structures. Leapfrogging that way you can move farther and faster than anyone. And attacking you with an army such as Ulm would be doubly hard because they would have to fight you for a few, then indeps while you recover, to reach some more of you to fight.

Caelums ability to leap over provinces also makes it a good ally. One of the common complaints about "lack of diplomacy" is that you cant move armies across an allies area. But there are nations (Caelum is one) who dont really have that problem. One small stepping stone province will let you move across alot of allied territory and QUICKLY come to the aid of a friend.

You have fast access to one of my favorite spells Wind Ride to snatch enemy commenders just before a battle. For nations who tend to assign alot of army to a few commanders this can cause much of his army to rout if even a scout attacks them.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

Perhaps you should test it a little more, if you are careless with them or set them the wrong orders, they will be decimated.

The same as if you group 3 elephants together in a squad and they rout and run through your army and over your commanders.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fine, oh flawless one. Care to give me the order you assign to Spine Horn Warriors to keep them from rushing on to the next group after the first group has been routed?

Re: Caelum tips?
 

Depends on what you are fighting and why are you using Spire Horn warriors? Do you have any other units? What type of Commander(s) do you have? What type of spell levels?

I'm not flawless, but as is common to some people who play this game, they ask a question; don't like the answer or it doesn't fit what they wanted to do; and do not attempt to find a way to circumvent it and instead say broad generalizations like "I've played a Mammoth nation, I want to play a flying one" that don't take into account the whole and only a thin perspective of what they can't seem to get to work.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm using Spine Horn Warriors because that's what Caelum starts the game with.

Quote:

I'm not flawless, but as is common to some people who play this game, they ask a question; don't like the answer or it doesn't fit what they wanted to do; and do not attempt to find a way to circumvent it and instead say broad generalizations like "I've played a Mammoth nation, I want to play a flying one" that don't take into account the whole and only a thin perspective of what they can't seem to get to work.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll resist the urge to reply in kind. Let's bank the fires a bit.

The point is, later on, do these flying things actually contribute, or are they just irritants?

What troops does Caelum field in the endgame?

Re: Caelum tips?
 

Alright I'll try to be as genial as possible in explaining.

In the End Game with Caelum you are using a conjunction of A.) Iceclads (If you have enough production to really utilize them, and your domain is fairly widespread) B.) Blizzard Warriors (For more suvivability and after you have such spells as Wind Guide, Orb Lightning and such) C.) Spring Hawks and Winter Wolves, various other summons. D.) Mammoth/Wingless/Temple Guards. This is the 'meat' of your army, for when your opponent has countered your raiding and starving/diseasing tactics (along with your mages).

Unless your opponent is playing with alot of Nature or growth, they will be hurt by the inability to really quickly reinforce, hold outlying provinces and spending money on Province Defense that you can defeat anyway with a properly made raiding team.

You on the other hand will have the ability to reinforce virtually anywhere, have access to some of the best magic and mages, and able to counter what you are weak against with your land armies (that being arrows, fire magic).

You more than likely are going to have more money and more security than your opponent as well as a better research tree. (This is on average)

That is what the end game is like for Caelum, you are picking away at them until you can steamroll over them.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

>The point is, later on, do these flying things actually contribute, or are they just irritants?


In a long game Caelum can build up a hefty supply of 25 troop flying armies. They aren't tough enough to beat down real armies, but are often more than enough to overcome province defense of undefended locations. With their fast movement they can be "shotgunned" all over enemy territory. All games provide differing circumstances, but this tactic has served me well in the past.

Re: Caelum tips?
 

I'm currently playing a game as Caelum. I've been using large armies of Blizzard Warriors with Wind Guide for aiming and Arrow Fend for friendly-fire protection. The front line is set to Hold and Attack so the enemy gets well softened up before the melee begins.

For the regular front line troops, I've been using Mastodons grouped with Wingless or Iceclads. The High Seraphs do most of the "recruiting", however, as I've been relying heavily upon summons.

This has been working so well, I haven't been leaning much on the other troops, although I did have a lot of luck with squads that were set to attack the rear after Holding.

I also had fun messing with Ulm by jumping around, pillaging and tearing up temples, with an army of Spire Horn Warriors. They were meant to be rather disposable, so I just let them clash with local defense, chewing up the ol' support system, until they finally got wiped out. I should have recruited some more, come to think of it. That approach was both successful and properly vicious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ December 01, 2003, 03:52: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

Re: Caelum tips?
 

Yes all the nations have seem to have something that makes it a very efficient counter to something that other nations like to do. Caelum DEFINETLY forces a player to spread his defenses equally over all his empire. Not only the winged troops but also the obvious built-in preference for spells like Call of the Winds.

Without Caelum then the Ulm tactic of maintaining a strong army in the forefront would be much more powerful.

Of course one of the nations with a built in counter to Caelum is Jotunheim where even a 6 point defense in a province is adequate.