Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

I've been loathe to actually bring this topic up recently because I didn't feel I had played enough games with and without them to make a determination.

Now that I have, I just wanted to ask a few questions of the players, and hopefully the Dev's to see their perspective or answers to the questions.

This is two part question, really. First the Racial Specifci Pretenders, and the second the Human Pretenders.

The Racial Specific Pretender(s)

Has anyone noticed that very few of the Racial specific pretenders are worth their cost vs the "favored" pretenders?

Things the Developers avoided, maybe too well, was to not make the racial specific pretender too good that you *always* take it if you are that race.

Now this is not all the racial specific pretenders. There are good ones: Void Lord, Void Lurker, Dagon, Smoking Mirror, Jade Emperor, etc.

There are other, not so good racial specific ones, i.e. Skratti, ***** Queen, Arch Seraph, Serpent King, Divine Emperor, Great Seer of the Depths, Great Warlock.

Now I do know that a good portion of this may be personal preference.

This is my reasoning. When I pick a race, I am looking for a pretender to:

A.) Utilize the Gem (Blood Slave)/Mage power of the Race and amplify or summon what the mages could not already.

B.) Fill the gaps magically. Either for Searching, army construction (Summons to fill a weakness in the races design) or ritual/battlefield spells that add to armies.

C.) A Supercombatant.

D.) A bless effect Pretender that is also a Supercombatant.

I am trying to do this with my own preference for a pretender with the least amount of points used designing the pretender to get the scales to make up for the races default playing style.

Now in looking at most of the races, their racial specific pretender is used for A and D. Except that in a % of the cases, there is a better more survivable pretender for that.

Anyone else notice that? Am I crazy? Am I wrong?

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

Jotun's Skratti archmage is pretty decent for B. That multi-arm thing is a pretty good class C SC for Arco and the other race that gets it...

And the ***** queen is pretty good for class B, too...

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

***** Queen is like a slightly improved Arch-Mage. Which isn't saying alot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'd always take a ***** Queen over an Archmage if I had the option, though I don't know if I'd take the ***** Queen as Man, but maybe as Vanheim.

40 Cost, 1 Dominion, 0 Magic Picks, 10 Pick per new.

Decent stats and calls 'wolves' to battle with her.

The Arco and 3 other Races that are allowed the Natarajah are not what I'm talking about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Skratti is like a big Arch-mage. 50 Cost, 1 Dominion, 0 Magic Picks, 10 Pick per new.

Maybe what I'm missing is the use of the "Arch-mage" type of Pretenders. Does everyone use them from time to time?

I find their low Domininon unattractive and the lowered stats (especially HP) a deterant.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

Yes, I find them very useful. Only a few nations need high dominion, as far as I can tell, so I always use an archmage type unless I'm using an SC or having fun with an immortal... but the ghost king is very fun, as an immortal ethereal archmage-type (20 per path) with high dominion.

I find the immobile pretenders to be fairly useless. If they were cheaper, perhaps, or had cheaper paths, or... who knows, maybe I'd never use one no matter what=) I think they need special advantages - the fountain of blood has special advantages, but the others need them too... like spewing out gems, or functioning as some sort of magic site, or something...

[ December 02, 2003, 05:56: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

The Ghost King isn't immortal... perhaps you're thinking of the Vampire Queen?

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

I have found myself using immobiles lately. The Void Lurker of R'lyeh is about the best pretender they can get, and i still think that scales are rather important. He gets two attacks, is ethereal and has a poison cloud effect(iirc) and costs hefty 0 points.

But i do find it srange that Oracles can't scry...

[ December 02, 2003, 06:06: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, whoops! I guess I was lucky=) I was being so careful to keep him in his dominion, too=)

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Their archmage is also zero points, but can be used to sitesearch underwater... or with an amulet of fish, on land, too. Not a bad deal! The disadvantages are weak astral and low HP (assassination, seeking arrow).

But who cares how many attacks an immobile pretender gets? I really don't see that as ever being important.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am warming to rainbow mages in Dom2. I am quite happy to have my pretender as capable researcher, site searcher, item maker, even when they have SC stats. The SC Versions will do a bit of conquering here and there but that is more a bonus than anything. I have never much liked magic rich Super combatent Pretenders - you may well lose them and half their magic. The only reason I use them in Dom2 is because they are generally the cheapest chassis for a bless effect god.

At present I'm taking "Master Liu" the Great Sage with Tien Ch'i. 21 research points (race has a -3drain scale to help pay) and excellent site searching - which is a big thing in game with 60%+ magic sites. The race design has problems but I'm coming to suspect this is in part due to bread and butter issues like the troops Tien Ch'i get not being that great. Still main theme is far from a pauper like the two Tien Ch'i sub-themes.

It would be nice if the special rainbow mages for races like Abysia, Jotun and Caelum cost a little more and started with a higher dominion. At present its too expensive to get a rainbow mage for a race needing high dominion.

cheers

Keir

[ December 02, 2003, 08:24: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Their biggest problem is the low Dominion, and now (in Dom2) their little (if at all..) Bless effect. So they are more usable for races that doesn't need high dominions and have few (or no) blessed troops - Ulm and Arco for example
But low HP isn't an issue when you just don't plan to ever fight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
A rainbow mage is used for research, site search, casting of rituals and item construction from all the paths, not combat. They start with avg 2 levels in each path, but can get to 4-5 with items and a little empowerement.

In fact I prefer to play a RB over a trampling monster, maybe that's a MoM heritage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

Rainbow Pretenders like the great sage and such are very nice until they get shot by an arrow coming from nowhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Too risky, imho.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

You can't play a Pretender that doesn't have any HP. They can be killed via a luck strike from any number of spells. The AI does it to me in the late game and other players do it to me in the middle game.

Sammual

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are ways to protect him/her from just about any attack. Guided Arrow? Amulet of Missile Protection. Earth Attack? Tough bodyguards. The list goes on... Also, any assassination spell can also be guarded against by moving around with a stack of dummy targets (scouts, priests, etc). Elemental resistances and MR protect against spells of mass destruction, and having Retreat as the first order helps against sudden attacks from stealthy armies or troop-sending spells.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are ways to protect him/her from just about any attack.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are indeed. In Dom1 a friend tested pesky arrows from afar vs cloaks of missile protection and never got killed - he may not have tested long enough but you get the idea. If you don't use your Rainbow Mage in combat (you shouldn't) you should be able to keep them alive with forethought. Indeed due to their desire to remain out of combat Rainbow Mages have always seeemd very safe pretenders compared to Super combatents who give the opponent every opportunity to come up with a counter and cripple or kill them. I find SC pretenders very vunerable and have always appreciated my opponent giving me a good shoot a killing off their pretender.

Cheers

Keir

Cheers

Keir

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

The only rainbow mage I'd really consider would be the Druid -- because it has stealth.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Their archmage is also zero points, but can be used to sitesearch underwater... or with an amulet of fish, on land, too. Not a bad deal! The disadvantages are weak astral and low HP (assassination, seeking arrow).

But who cares how many attacks an immobile pretender gets? I really don't see that as ever being important. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">R'lyeh gets mages with randoms and has a great acces to Acashic Record. The 0-cost Archmage is weak, starts with weak dominion, you'll have to pay yourself sick to get 2 in all the paths, and if you want more, you pay more wich drains design points that are sorely needed for scales and dominion strength. RB's seem to be even more weaker than they were in Dom I... Too bad, i realy love RB's.

OTOH, i constantly use RB's with vanilla Ulm.

The amount of attacks(or lack of them) with a immobile pretender is quite important because the immobile pretender can defend itself from the enemy attacks if he has attacks(apart from spells). The Void Lurker even gets a poison cloud effect(iirc)!

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">and having Retreat as the first order helps against sudden attacks from stealthy armies or troop-sending spells. [/quote]

Truly inspiring actions of your god! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif All bow to his unwavering heroism and self-preservation instinct!

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Watch out however, as there's currently a bug such that units with retreat orders during an assasination just die.

I lost Angerboda while site searching to this in my first demo game. :-/

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Stealth is certainly great for a Rainbow Mage but I still like Master Liu, The Great Sage. The research for a drain race is great early.

On a related issue I lost a commander building a Castle to Fires from the Sky - only commander in province. I didn't get any option to continue building the castle when more commanders arrived. I didn't get the gold back either. How does the continue building option work?

Cheers

Keir

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

I lost a scout building a fortress to assasination once, and had to restart as well. Sounds like a bug.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not a bug I think. The commander dies if he retreats during an assassination attempt, that's the rule. Keep in mind that astral mages, like Angerboda, can cast Returning if they have some astral gems. Casting a spell does not count as 'retreat'.
Cheers

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

I thought retreat orders were ignored during assassination attempts, or that's the way it was in Dom I IIRC.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

It is a bug. There are supposed to be no retreats during assassinations - or in the arena, I think. This is listed in the assassination description, and the devs confirmed it. Except possibly a rout after 30 or 40 turns, which is different than a retreat.

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You should give the Ghost King a try. It's slightly more expensive (105 more than druid for starting the 8 paths, but it starts with 3 dominion), but has much higher survivability than other rainbow mages. (35hp, stealth, ethereal, cold/poison immunity and automatically summons it's own stealthy bodyguards)

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Was this on the first turn of construction, or a later turn?

If he was killed before he actually started construction, you shouldn't get the continue construction option - although IMO you should get your gold back.

On the other hand, if construction was already in progress, then you should be able to continue it.

Of course I assume he didn't complete the construction before dying as you certainly would have noticed that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Racial Specific Pretenders (Limitations)
 

This was long enough ago I'm not completely sure. I think it was the 2nd turn of construction however. I sure don't remember getting any gold back! 450 was a lot of gold to miss at the time...