T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

I have to say I didn't like T'ien Ch'i when I first played them. They were interesting, had alot of 'coolness' factors but ... lacked. I have to say they took some getting used to. I have to say bar none, I like the Spring and Autumn theme the best.

Reasons:

Master of the Five Elements.

These guys are great. You just hope you don't get a pick in Astral. They get to use all those crazy spells you never really got to use before. Like Sulpher Haze, Acid Haze, etc. You need to with this theme. Or at least how I play them. You need every bit of help you can muster for your small, tenacious little armies. Every mage has a different spell line and you need it all and a little extra to get the job done.

Archers.

Archers, Demons of the Heavenly Flame, and to a lesser extent Horse Archers. You have to use them, you can't get around it. You have no other real troops to soften up the enemy (and hopefully rout) while your crack team of ... 1 recruitable heavy infantry, Demons of the Heavenly River and summons try to hold that front line. I have alot more appreciation for Archers because I've been playing both T'ien Ch'i and Man.

Celestial Masters.

Sure they can die to a Sage with an astral pick. Sure they are hard as hell to protect and if you are up against Pythium, Arco, Squidies, or anyone who happens to want to be Astral King you can count them as fodder (unless you beat them first). BUT, they can fly, have great magic and are like Masters of the Five Elements on crack if you don't have to fight an astrally powerful nation.

Spirit Mastery.

Man this really starts to kick in once you discover sites. The ancestors are pissed and are some of the only fodder you have that is cheap and plentiful. Too bad you have to get 3 or 4 commanders to drive over a good army of them!

(Hero) of the Iron Crutch.

A guy with leprosy that is an immortal leader. If he wasn't so valuable you wouldn't gouge out your eyes if you accidentally placed him near all your other commanders. Or if he runs up to them for some obscure reason. Must be Illwinter's idea of a joke http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

All in all, I love this race. I'll play them in more and more MP games, though hopefully they won't be as hard if they give Mind Duel less of a 'instakill' factor.

Kudos on the design.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

I agree, I have been having great fun with T'ien Ch'i durring spring and autumn.

Is it just me, or does the master with the iron crutch sometimes ignore your orders even off the battle field? I love how he occassionally goes feebleminded and makes an *** of himself in the war tent for a few turns before recovering his senses.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

T'ien Chi is certainly a race that needs to be played in very different way comparing to all other races.
First of they are one of the best if not THE best race with long-range weapons (2 types of archers, both usefull, and crossbows to deal with HI). Man's longbows are better then composite bows, but Man doesn't have crossbows.
Secondly, Celestial Master is your weapon for early expansion where only a few levels in evocation will make him a deadly force. He’s also a supplement for RM so you can specialize your pretender in 1 or 2 paths of magic and still get a lot of great magic sites. Of course, magic duel is their weakness but if they had no weakness what would stop them? Their infantry certainly isn't the best in the game (better then Man's, though) but you can try to go for the numbers over there. Falchioners are better choice IMHO since they have better ATT/DEF stats then spear HI. If you compare Man and T’ien Chi you will find that T’ien Chi has better infantry, better mages, better priests and better summons and also have a weapon to deal with armored troops. The only thing that Man has better are longbows (marginally better) and cavalry.

I find default theme to be most powerfull. They get a chance to improve defenses in their provinces for free (only if you have order dominion and that is only possible in default theme) and they get Celestial Servant (not that great but cheap and good bodyguard) and Celestial Soldiers, which are simply great. They are also sacred so if you picked a powerfull pretender (e.g. 9 in fire or water) you can boost them to really high levels. Not only that but you can start summoning them very early in game so you will get great boost in expansion. Celestial Soldiers are one of most powerfull and cost effective summons (consider their stats, size, sacred status, not eating and the fact that you get 5 of them for only 20 air gems - 4 air gems each). Also, since you will lose so few of them in expansion, you will mass a sizable force before you start fighting other players.

I believe T'ien Chi's biggest strength is their flexibility. They can counter almost anything with proper use of their units and summons.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Immortal units get a chance of recovering from affliction each turn. In your case, my guess is that he got an battle affliction and then recovered.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

The reason I don't prefer the normal theme of T'ien Ch'i is because their only real mage is the Celestial Master who is forced to use Astral. Thus you have to walk into battle without mages if you are fighting an Astrally powerful nation. Spring and Autumn allows you to circumvent that with the Master of the Five Elements.

I do think one minor improvement could be the increase of number of summons from the "Demon of" variety. Double or Triple the power/number of effects of the spell. So you don't have to commit a huge number of Celestial Masters to forge your army.

Edit: I don't mean double or triple the power without the cost of gems, just double or triple the formula. 9 Fire Gems for 3 Demons of Celestial Fire.

[ December 02, 2003, 19:09: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the difference with the master is that he seems to gain them every turn as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

I have been playing around with Tien Ch'i again and having alot of fun - though I'm still not sure they are that good.

Playing main theme I find the foot archers mediocre but useful and the LC archers worse - I think Man has much better shooters in the Longbow. HC have a heap of cool factor and are cheap lancers - I can't stay away from them. Celestial masters are very useful early combat mages.

The coolest thing is that I'm having a good time with the Barbarian Kings. I have taken Fortune as my Pretender and she has done me proud. With random events rare (I know I should have made them commen) I'm getting a positive event every two turns + and no bad ones. There has also been enough extra gold from events to keep me from hurting much from the Turmoil3. While its along way from being as fast as Arco/Pythium/C'tis its working in a fashion. And Spirit Mastery is really good.

I must try again with Spring and Autumn as I just love the chariots.

I still thing Barbarian Kings should be able to recruit LC through conquest and need the extra strength this would give them in MP. Spring and Autumn could do with the ability to raise more than just commander chariots. While Tien Ch'i main theme is the strongest I think it is well short of Man as Man has awesome mages, Longbow the best missile troops around, and Wardens are great. Nothing in the Tien Ch'i arsnel of main troops compares to these IMO.

What Tien Ch'i has that no-one can top is flavour. All the themes ooze flavour. I just love them. Mictlan also scores highly here while the third new race Machaka performs better but has less flavour for me as it performs in a more traditional fashion. The great thing about Mictlan and Tien Ch'i is the uniqueness of their approach. If these two do recieve any up-powering then it should not be such as to make them more like the main stream.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the difference with the master is that he seems to gain them every turn as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? I never noticed that. All I saw was one affliction when he first came. But of course, I wasn't paying the most attention to him. I was more impressed by the healing Ho and the flying Lui.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

In the Spring and Autumn theme, is there any point at all to building Horsemen, other than perhaps as patrol and/or raid units? They don't seem to work with my main armies.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

The only reason I have built Horsemen in S&A is from distant provinces with forts to reinforce the frontline. In S&A money is a precious commodity and more often than not it's cheaper to build a fort near a fighting line and produce archer/HI there along with flying your summoning army to the new stronghold for faster replentishment of armies.

Hope that helps.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Spring and Autumn has a dearth of good units, and that definitely includes the 20 gold horsemen, which aren't anywhere near as good as the 25 gold lancers available to Tien Chi.

Thier heavier infantry would be _ok_ if they were strategic move 2, but instead they're weakly equiped _and_ slow. Only their Composite archers look decent; Glaives are nice, but no where near as good as 2 handed swords.

Either you can make their summoned troops work for you, or IMHO abandon all hope.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

It's true that Tien Chi infantry is weak, because of its weapons (no sword/shield units). In the default theme, the infantry with almost-decent protection (12) cost 13 gold. I prefer indy HI to Tien Chi HI =)

But as for archers - wow! Their composite archers are much better than Man archers, IMO. Why? Higher protection, at a lower cost. Man longbows are too expensive. Who would win with 1000 gold worth of composite archers against 1000 gold worth of longbows? I would say... certainly the composite archers, since I think they'd even win on a unit-for-unit basis. And with the "Fire Archers" order, that's important!

BTW. If you want to see a shocking difference in infantry quality, compare the Tien Chi (default) elite Glaive troops to Marginon Halberdiers or Greatswordsmen. Keep in mind the Tien Chi troops are 30% more expensive! A battle between the two sides, on equal cost basis, would not be pretty... but at least TC does get some 2 strat move infantry.

[ December 03, 2003, 04:58: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I generally use the 15prot HI with Tower shields and spear which are fine vs bow though otherwise a bit light. You can also get Imperial Guard in the main theme with Falchions as hard hitters though still only 15prot.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Man's longbow cost 12gps 6res vs 10gps 9res. this makes longbow signifcantly (50%) faster to build early in the game where resources are the barrrier and bow at their best. Longbowmen have 2 higher precision (this really matters), longer ranger and do 1 more damage.

Tien Ch'i bowmen are perhaps the most useable feature of the race and I suspect this is why they shine.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Marignon GS, on dom1, where one of the nastiest normal human HI cost for cost in a straight fight. The trade off is weak vs missiles while Tien Ch'i infantry with Tower shields are fairly decent in their role defending archers and attracting arrows. Barbarian Kingdom HI only cost 10gps but have lower morale - they are a very important part of making BK work in my latest test.

The Lancers should not be ignored as they can sit back on hold and attack and then charge down the badly shot up enemy or else line in in the battle line and shoot as they come in and then take to their lances. They add an extra arm to the army which is important. If they get to shoot while on hold and attack, or guard commander, they will be a very powerful unit IMO. It would also be nice if they could charge before being contacted when left with no orders.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

If one has luck scale +3, does the Fortune pretender boost luck even more, or is it wasted at that point?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

The Jade Emperor has his own little area of effect I think it outside of the Luck Scale, so it's twofold if you have Luck 3 and a Jade Emperor.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It seems unlikely it would be wasted as the description seems to say Fortune improves the chance of good events in the province she is in.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Fortune ability gives the province a chance of an extra event that is automatically good. The chance might be linked to the luck scale (not sure though).

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks Kristoffer. I was just puzzelling away at the Jade Emperors desription as to me it seemed less clear than Fortunes' wether or not it worked well with a turmoil/luck race - the reason I choose Fortune over Emperor. From your response I'm assuming that both the Jade Emperor and the Lady of Fortune have the "fortune" special ability and that this is not affected by your turmoil scales.

Thanks again.

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Lady has more luck than Emperor. 25 - 10 % IIRC.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Oh ... because he ... needs to be less attractive?

I wonder why that choice was made.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are approaching this from the wrong direction, his fortune event ability is not him being a shortchanged but him getting an additional bonus, most pretenders do not have this ability after all. Now looking at him I would perhaps agree that he is a tad expensive for his potency, but I think it is a better solution to either improve him in some other way of reduce his cost, rather than make his luck event ability as potent as that of the pretender that is expressiviely intended to be a good fortune pretender.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Well considering the Jade Emperor has:

Cost 100

HP 110 St 20
Pr 3 At 10
Mo 30 De 9
Mr 18 Ps 10
En 2 Mv 3/12
Leadership 75/0/0

Astral 1, Water 1, New Path: 50

Dominion 3

Weapon: Fist

Special: "Minor" Fortune

and the:

Lady of Fortune

Cost 100
HP 85 Str 20
Pr 4 At 11
Mo 30 De 11
Mr 18 Ps 13
En 2 Mv 3/16
Leadership 125/0/0

Water 2, Nature 1, New Path: 50

Dominion: 3

Weapon: Fist
Armor: Helmet

Special: "Full" Fortune


I don't know why I would look at him as being less attractive. Perhaps I'm a 'the cup is half empty' type of person. But when I look at two pretenders that are virtually the same, and I see one for the same cost with lower overall statistics and 'special' ability while being a Racial Specific pretender only usable by T'ien Ch'i I see it as less attractive than the one who is better.

Perhaps it is because once a pretender takes at least 1 pick in Astral he is committed to at least a few more picks otherwise he is virtually useless in any combat situation in MP. Now seeing as the Emperor is less inclined to being a Rainbow, because of his new pick cost, I don't see him picking more than perhaps 1 other path outside of his two without going with a different pretender.

Maybe this has already been discussed and you are improving them; and this is just rubbing salt into the wound. I have no idea.

But now that I know that the Jade Emperor has less Fortune than the Lady; I will be much less inclined to choose him over her unless for whatever reason I want Astral and not go with the other much more attractive astral pretenders out there for much cheaper.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

My girlfriend is a big fan and scholar of the Warring States period of China, so she's taken a liking for the Spring&Autumn variety of T'ien Ch'i.

Nobody seems to comment on the _very_ nice charioteer commanders.

I'm rather surprised that these people have cavalry instead of chariot troops. Reading "The Art of War" should show everybody just how central _vast_ chariot armies were in the early China.

But still. The charioteer commander is heavily armoured, fast and deadly. Just recruiting a handful (say 4+) of them and positioning them to do a flanking rear attack can have rather spectacular results.

And since they are all commanders, one can beef them up with missile protection and extra armour.

Nice. I still hope the cavalry get's changed to chariots though. So chinise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Huge wooden crossbows too, of course. Just look at the terracotta warriors.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

The reason I see to take the Jade Emperor over Fortune is easier access to Crystal shields. I'm hoping crystal shields will unleash the full potential of Celestial Mages.

So far my Oracle (Astral3, Earth2 for CS) Spring and Autumn race has failed miserably. I had a great run of luck in one game using Fortune and the Barbarians but though I'm still playing turmoil3/luck3 I haven't had much luck since. If I start close to an AI I get overrun in short order while tough indie's are really hard to beat without the Lance armed cavalry to charge down their Heavies. Bring on extra Chariots I say.

From the explanation given there seems to be no special affinity between the Lady of Fortune/Jade Emperor and turmoil/luck races. The otherside of the coin is it means they are an interesting choice for an order/misfortune race that still wants good events. Not the way I hoped it worked but there you go.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some of the better luck events still has a required luck scale setting thoug, so you still couldn't get a few of the better events if you played with lady of fortune luck -3 for example.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A very good point. This helps explain why the combo of turmoil/luck plus Lady Fortune seemed to work. It does! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Having got this cleared I'm scrapping the Oracle and its back to Lady Luck - or maybe the Jade Emperor with earth2 for Crystal Shields.

Thanks Johan,

Keir

[ December 04, 2003, 00:12: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Keir, in all honesty if I was going to try that type of idea. I would either go; Lady of Fortune and try to use a Celestial to make the Shields. Or a Great Enchantress. She begins with a pick in Astral, makes Astral Gems to forge/Power of the Spheres more often and costs quite a bit less to get to the same level as a Jade.

That 10% chance for a good event (in whichever province he stands) just isn't "wow". Maybe this is because of the weight of the luck scale, or not. I couldn't tell you.

Now I don't mind that he doesn't have a full effect of fortune. On the contrary I thought of that as just an 'extra' but with him being T'ien Ch'i only and my quest to make good Racial specific pretenders, he just got taken down a notch on "Good pretenders for:".

Give the Emperor another Astral and I might change my mind.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do get your point and think its valid. Johan O seemed to agree the Jade Emperor could do with a bit of upgrading.

Just having another go with Barbarian Kings Lady of Fortune so I also prefer the greater fortune ability. The game is going well as I had a fairly easy batch on indie's to face and have managed to avoid getting imbroilled in an early war. I am finding it very difficult to get Crystal shields though as I haven't got an earth random pick yet. The luck factor is working ok although I have probably lost more population in my empire to floods etc than grown through growth +3 - however many of the bad events have happened in provinces not fully dominated. Random events are commen turmoil3, luck3.

I have found Tien Chi mages remarkably ineffective at searching. I'm guesing I've just had along string of bad luck as I have only found 1 extra death gem income in two games. It does make me wonder though wether site searching with mages with lots of 1's is not so productive. The one thing I do get is lots of astral gems from all those temples. Are there any good uses for these, other than Power of the Spheres, until I can make Crystal shields? The summons I've spotted are along way off.

Seeing how much easier BK starts than S&A I'm wondering wether part of the problem could be fixed if S&A got better/more starting troops and/or commanders as they start with less than B&K and main theme (I think). I find even getting a third turn attack in with S&A can be risky.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Crystal Shields ... Sigh. They are expensive, even if you do get a good searcher for Earth. My main searcher is either a Celestial Master with a Earth and Death or a Lot5E with a Death. Also Nature is good since so many sites are Nature 1. The trick is getting him up to Earth 2, Astral 3 (for the shields) they are not that glamourous. Cost something like 20 Astral 20 Earth gems to forge and are heavy thus netting you less spells because most of the time you can only script what you want first off (Quickness etc.) then under computer control it chooses the most fatiguing spells instead of chaincasting ones that they can repeatedly do.

I hold onto my Astral (outside of Power of the Spheres, which I always have scout runners ready to supply for) unless I need to Alchemy for making summons, since they are such a big part of S&A and a Pack of Summer Lions or Fall Bears can make a big difference in it's army strength. Otherwise I save them for an Angelic Host. A good % of the time I find a pretty healthy death income and keep on the Spirit Mastery and Revive Mound King to carry them around with the main army.

Where I seem to be falling, is really penetrating those heavy troops of the enemy. I wish that S&A had access to X-bows, that would at least give them a half-decent way to deal with them. That and the fact if I don't build my pretender exactly right; I have a gem income I can't use and armies with vast holes in them (Because of summons and the fact that Celestial Masters suck at summoning anything other than Demon of's).

If the Random 2 slot would both be to 1 path that would be best, it would at least give you a shot at not having to make your pretender do all the work.

Edit: I wish that Luck 3 would upgrade the vanilla luck events. Like instead of 30 Militia (nearly useless with S&A since most of what you can recruit is on par with militia, and they eat a ton) upgrade it to 20 Heavy Infantry if you get that same event in a Luck 3 enviroment. Instead of 20 Flaggelants, upgrade it to 10 Knights.

[ December 04, 2003, 05:36: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

What's up with the love of Crystal Shields? They're terrible! Way too much encumbrance. I prefer shields of valor, or lucky coins. Am I missing something? Or are these just used to enable a specific spell that would normally be uncastable? Or do people always use them with reinvig items?

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

On a Celestial Master it's like a free Power of the Spheres during battle. Which is very nice unless you like casting Geyser or Acid Bolt his entire career.

A Power of the Spheres and a Crystal Shield on a Master makes him able to cast nifty spells like Falling Fires, Falling Frost, Orb Lightning (effectively), and when he gets low on fatigue, Smite a billion times.

Unfortunately, the Computer doesn't say "Look we're at 99 Fatigue, I am only going to cast Holy spells" it says "Lets cast the most fatiguing spell I have"

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah! There we go=) I didn't know it raised divine as well. Hmmm... time to give one to my prophet=)

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Huh? Is this some special I don't know about? Or do you mean holy sites that give astral gems?

I was thinking a bit about a lack of xbows being a weakness for Tien Chi themes. But... indy xbows are pretty common, and I like them better... cheaper, lower resources. Assuming you find indy xbows (a good assumption) the TC non-default themes shouldn't be hindered.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Well every X-bow out there except the Hoburg is pricy in resources; thus you must build a Castle on it to be useful; while your main castles are left to build either Glaive, Spear/Shield Infantry, Compositebowmen, or Horsemen (bleh).

The Glaives are okay; but they get mowed down quite fast. I wish they would strap on a little more armor to them. An added bonus is they get torn up by your own missle fire; so once someone routs, your Glaive squad(s) are mincemeat.

I think the main fault is not having a cavalry to speak of. If they had more than a mediocre cavalry (like Barbarian Kings) they would at least have a shot at throwing back a heavy wave, or tearing up an enemy xbow core.

I think that is the main problem, because even the summons you get from using a Celestial Master (Wyverns) that you would use for Cavalry purposes get chewed up by your forced use of arrowfire.

Arrow Fend is out of reach of most Celestial Masters or Mot5E, but with a Power of the Spheres and a Shield they can do it. But I don't feel using 1 spell is the answer to a race/theme. At least unless they start with it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I'm probably just playing them wrong ;/ I do have a fast start for S&A though, not as fast as a true quick race, but enough I wouldn't feel crippled. It's the midgame that really is cruel on S&A, with not enough Demons to make a heavy core, and no units to bolster those that you have.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Huh? Is this some special I don't know about? Or do you mean holy sites that give astral gems?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats the one - sorry for the confusion.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">20 Earth - bugger. I didn't realise they had gone up so much in cost. I guess I won't bother trying so hard to get them then.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is certainly an issue for S&A lacking the Lancers of BK. I find mages the only answer and as you say they have a tendency to go to sleep on the job. Still a few well placed fireballs and those indie Knights are fleeing.

In the long term missiles (Xbow or Comp) are not adequate so you need to transition to something else but what? BK can go HC but S&A only really has its mages and they will only do so much. My response to my first attempts at S&A is that they suck and that seems fairly close - give them more quality chariots and all that changes.

BK is better, playable, but deeply flawed due to the odd behaviour of the multi-armed cavalry. In practice you need to rely on Comp bow and HI to expand. The LC that should define the race end up optional and need higher precision to reflect their exceptional skills as horse archers (like maybe 10). Khans could do with an extra role and I still like the recruiting LC through conquest idea. At present the Generals are more rewarding as they have a bow to keep themselves busy while the standard affect of the Khan is hard to make use of.

Haven't played Main Theme Tien Chi much but they seem the strongest and more comparable to main stream Dom races.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They have very low accuracy (8 I think) so their shots are very rarely on target. I usually make Bows of Accuracy and give them to more powerfull and accurate generals (like Khans).

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They have very low accuracy (8 I think)[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats right - same as the rest of your cavalry. As they can shoot they can get lucky and find themselves in the hall of fame which is always a source of entertainment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Hard for Khans, beyond the first, to get in until you get construction researched and have spare air gems for bows. I have a soft spot for Celestial Soldiers and spend my air gems on them.

It might not be much the General having a bow but I'm not sure the Khans ability is giving me any advantage using Tien Ch'i as a shooty race and they cost 20gps more.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

I've got an idea I have. All the Tien Ch'i mages are sacred so perhaps bless effects have a role to play.

The obvious one ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) is to take The Prince of Death with death9 and kill all my mages off (while blessed) and have them come back as 0 upkeep souless. Not so appealling for S&A as you would lose the flying from the Celestial masters but it would make the other Tien Ch'i mages much faster to move around. One of the best parts of this is that the PoD is a great pretender who doesn't cost much to boost.

Trouble is I haven't thought of a good way to kill my mages yet as Tien Ch'i. Breath of Winter on a mage surrounded by mates?

The other issue is what is the precision of a mage turned Souless like?

Earth could be strong with re-invigoration. Even earth4 would help those poor sleepy mages. Earth9 would be awesome for the Celestial Warriors but is very expensive.

Idea's, comments, criticism, appreciated.

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Haven't tried Death 9 pretender yet but it sounds like a good choice. I think you are right; Breath of Winter could be best way to kill of CM’s and make them undead.
I think RM is worse choice since you get so many special holy troops waiting for right blessing. Not to mention that your Celestial Masters (and Masters of Five Elements if you use S&A) can find most of sites by themselves.
Fire or water 9 pretenders are good, and nature 9 is not bad either for Celestial Soldiers. Earth would do more good to Celestial Masters but big question is do you want to invest in them if you face Arco/Pythum, which can kill them in duels. I guess Earth choice would depend on game settings and opponents. The only choice that seems like a waste on them seems air since your sacred troops don’t need it or simply can cast it themselves.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Water isn't all that good of a choice, since your mages all have Water 1 or 2 (for quickness). Both the Celestial Soldiers and the Demon of' varieties would benefit more from Protection and reinvigoration than 4 Defense and quickness.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">20 Earth - bugger. I didn't realise they had gone up so much in cost. I guess I won't bother trying so hard to get them then.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">20 astral, 10 earth.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have been more fortunate than I. I have found site searching with Tien Ch'i to be rather poor. Luck is obviously a big factor but I suspect all those 1's arn't that great at getting a good search coverage.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Its unlikely I would pick Tien Ch'i in a game with Mind Duel included. As I know a few players who feel similar, and when I have the time am happy to host games, there should be opportunities for fun in a Mind Duel free environment.

I suspect its not worth going over the top in combat based bless effects as the Celestial Soldiers are hard to get big numbers of - though the Angels are a consideration. What would they most benifit from?

I suspect only Earth and Death are worth looking at and Death only because the PoD is so good and affordable - I doubt the gold saving on relatively cheap sacred mages will really make a huge difference. I suspect the move and the ability of the mages to survive cataclysimic death spells will be the biggest boon from going soulless. Earth9 will turn the Celestial Soldiers into serious comabatents and provide some real staunch considering their high hit points. Reinvigoration 4 would also be great. The Cyclops is the cheapest option and I have tried Cyclops9 in one of my first Tien Ch'i experiments - its just not very thematically satisfying.

The dearth of pretenders with Earth greater than 1 is one of the biggest restrictions on using earth bless effects as even starting at 2 makes a big difference while starting at 3 makes 9 rather affordable.

I am very cautious of playing nature on a race with Sacred Mages with the Van being the only exception I can think of off the top of my head - Van commanders going berserk is not all bad but Celestial mages? As for Fire its not as important for combat as earth (though more affordable in the shape of the Moloch) and lacks the reinvogoration for the mages. Water, as Zen said, is already covered to some degree and while still very useful is another expensive one to get to 9 with no starting 3's for land races. I suspect Earth has an edge over Water considering how sleepy Tien Ch'i mages are.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

I found another major default TC problem. Their mages and priests are all strategic move 1!!!

That is... unforgivable. At first, I was building their leather armor troops rather than scale mail troops for mobility, but when I realized my magic support can never move more than 1... well, I guess it no longer matters!

Technically, the Master of the Way (2 moves) is both a mage and a priest, but is not very good at either one. Their good mage (celestial master), good priest (CM or minister of rituals), cheap commander (eunuch), and cheap priest (ceremonial master) all have 1 strategic move. Wow. Worthless! I don't see any justification for this - China historically had an exceptional road and bridge infrastructure, compared to other preindustrial countries. But for a nation with highly mobile medium infantry, this is crippling, as it nerfs an obvious major strength.

To date, default TC is the only nation I've found to be reliant on indy commanders. Their national (non-priest, non-mage) commanders are just bad; either overpriced or underpowered.

-Cherry

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

I don't see why Eunuch's couldn't be Communion Slaves (ala Pythium). From what I've read; Eunuchs were devout and servants of the Emperor; though they had a place of position and title, which is why their position was coveted, but not the means to it.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats a big part of why I want them all to die and be reborn as Soulless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I haven't found the problem devestating and though I use indie commmanders with Tien Ch'i I do so with most races - the basic indie commander is good (ie cheap) for his role and can be built at places other than your initial starting Castle.

I've ended up going for the HI to move around with mages at strat move 1, Spirits (with undead commmanders), archers plus mounted, at strat move 2, and Horse only Groups for move 3. This works alright and if you want better there is Spring and Autumn with their flying mages. Sure S&A don't look great now but if they were given access to some more chariots (please, please, please) they could be a whole different kettle of fish.

By my reading of ancient China Eunuchs should move 1 and as for the Masters I'm not yet convinced they shouldn't move 1 in general. Sure they had good roads but at least in the books I've read the older, wiser, more prominient Masters/Eunuch were renowned for enjoying their creature comforts and travelling with many attendants.

I have found Tien Ch'i MI to be too lightly armoured to be survive long and find the HI Spearmen with their Tower shield the rock around which the Comp bow operate. Some MI are very good in dom2 but its generally those with a protection rating not far off that of HI.

The General and Khans do seem rather expensive given their use value but I presume this is a product of the formula used and their not to useful combination of capabilities - general has bow can't shoot straight, Khan can shoot sorta straight but lacks bow. I'm comfortable with using indie commanders as foot generals to fill the gaps as locals contributing to the army and Generals or Khans for my elite HC formations.

If you get the impression I'm relying on HI and Comp alot and not getting to have nearly
as much fun with HC as I would like you are right. Gotta make do with what works.

cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Alright Keir,

I can honestly say that I've played quite a few maps now with my Celestial Masters and as long as I got one with anything but Blood I found quite a few sites. You were just unlucky I feel.

In my experiance for Barbarian Kings (best to worst):

Celestial Master base (1 Fire, 1 Air, 2 Water, 1 Astral, 3 Holy)


1 Death

1 Nature

1 Earth

The death nets you a bunch of death gems, things like: Battlefield, Burial Mound, Catacombs, Banefire Braziers, Mausoleum, Witches Bog, Gallows.

Nature gets you some good'ns too. Also it's very easy to get Amazons who can actually use the damn gems.

Earth is the Last, because it lets you forge a bunch of good items, it's like a Last desperate ditch effort, I wouldn't seriously use him as a searcher unless I was trying for something specific and I wouldn't use him only.

Hope that helps.

Edit: P.S. I find it a little hard to go back to a race with such focused searchers. I don't have all these options with them. Not that it's bad; just feels different when I don't have a billion different gem incomes.

[ December 05, 2003, 04:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cheers Zen - good to hear I have just been a victim of misfortune. I've been using a Master of the Dead for my death searching as its n.1 priority. Masters of the Way make half decent researchers and so can be another access to a random pick.

I could believe the Mistress of Fortune helped prevent bad events in your home province as when I don't use her I get pummelled at home and when I do I'm safe - I guess its just the fickleness of luck.

I have been keeping a rough track of random events and I can't remember a game using Turmoil3/luck3, without the LoF, in which I would clearly say I came out ahead on luck or one with the LoF in which I came out behind.

Individually the bad events have been worse than the good ones. In my Last BK test I lost two turns income early to bad events including my lab on the first turn which blew 25rps from the Great Sage . . . still came back alright from this but its not great after having sacrificied income for luck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I like the fact the fact that events have been linked to different luck scales but the reality of the uneven spread of dominion means you still get floods etc towards your boundry. This would be ok if the core was safe all but minor bad luck so perhaps adjusting the linkage of events to scales could do the trick.

cheers

Keir