What role does a shield play?
 

I realize that they block projectile weapons. But in a melee fight, do they confer additional benefits that you wouldn't have without them?

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Well, they usually give protection and defense. What I'd like to know is whether or not morningstars have a bonus against shields, as it says in the description for Star of Heroes.

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

All Morningstars have an increased attack against shields.

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Another good bit of info would be how well shields protect against projectiles (the algorithm). And if they protect against seeking arrows / battlefield magic projectiles (fireflies, etc). They're starting to sound very useful!

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Of course they are useful. Historically only the japanese failed to see this fact. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">because they catch arrows with their hands, or cut them in two with their katana. Everybody knows that.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

The Japanese used shields. What are you talking about?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

I believe he's talking about martial arts movies and the like, not actual Japanese military tradition. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm, errr... I'm not sure how to politely say this, but that sure doesn't fit with what I've read of Japanese military history -- although admitedly I'm an amateur not an expert.

Perhaps you could direct me to a source? I'm most curious to see how the Japanese made use of shields.

[Edit: Arg! I responded to the wrong post.]

[ December 03, 2003, 03:19: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You fool! What you saw were samurai spinning their swords so fast that they merely appeared to be large round shields! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And besides, there is no honor in hiding behind a shield http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Seriously, though - I've never seen a Japanese shield, and I've seen lots of Japanese armor. I cannot say for certain that such things never existed, but I've never seen any evidence of them... most shields did not tend to be as durable as body armor or helmets (shields had a lower proportion of metal) so they didn't survive as well, and so, maybe in ancient history there were wooden Japanese shields that have since decayed... but I've never seen them in books, paintings, or any other art either...

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Don't you think it's because katana is a two handed sword... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Actually they used shields called "tate" as protection from arrows or spears. And sometimes they used a "sode" (the piece of armor worn on the shoulder) which samurai could untie and use like buckler for deflecting arrows.

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

... but they didn't have that much use for shields because they didn't have massed archers/slingers like all armies west of them had.

By the way, the Katana is a 1-hand sword which could be used with both hands.
It's on the upper end (max. 1,1m) of the length scale for 1-handed swords (0,7..1,1m), but superior balancing makes single handed usage very easy.

The older Tachi is up to 1,4m long, 2-handed and was used from horse-back at the time of the mongol invasion. At which point it served pourly, as the tips regularly broke off when a fighter hit a mongol armor with it. (felt, sometimes reinforced with "Couir bouillie"/"cuir bouilli" sp?, chain mail). Subsequently the swords got shorter (shortened) and developed to the Katana/Wakizasi - kombo.

Everything AFAIK, of course.

A.

[ December 03, 2003, 11:42: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would be a No-Dachi, IIRC. A Katana is easily useable in one hand (better reach, from horseback, etc.); it's two handed use is a matter of style.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm having a hard time finding a reference to a "Tate" outside of Anime, no doubt because it also seems to be a common English name.

Perhaps you could provide a link or source? I'd dearly love to see a picture!

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Army lists give them high proportions of Longbow armed Samurai in the early Samurai period. The lack of shields, given influence from China, is very odd. Explanations could include their armour being exceptionally effective against missile, the bow commonly used being not as good as it is generally rated, and that the focus on individual combat made shields less effective as they require a degree of discipline and formation tog et the full benifit.

Cheers

Keir

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Yes the early main weapon was the bow, not the katana, and heavy use of bows continued, perhaps moreso than in many western ancient/medieval armies. Late medieval Japanese armor does seem to have been relatively effective against arrows, judging from the number of arrows frequently shown sticking out of still-fighting samurai in art (and samurai films such as the Last scene of Throne of Blood). Post-gunpowder, some breastplates were tested to be sure they were proof against muskets, though I think they still were only a part of the torso coverage, with plenty of places still to get hurt.

Later samurai equipped for battle would also tend to carry a naginata as the first weapon, which is a two-hander.

Although they did have some shields, perhaps like their sword style, they tended to emphasize avoiding arrow hits, rather than blocking them.

PvK

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Now, as I think about it, "tate" seams just means "shield" in japanese http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It's hard to find any evidenve of it's existence indeed. Look at this:
http://cis.k.hosei.ac.jp/~F-rep/Haniwa_EGUK2002.pdf

I'm not convinced about katana - it's described as "one and half handed" (like broad sword) and IMO it was mostly used with both hands. Look at today's martial arts like kendo - main arm moves the sword and the hand of the secondary drives it.
One handed use don't let for finese technique (with such heavy weapon) and have sense only with second blade for parrying (and then there is no need for shield).

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point. I'd always assumed they were able to take so many arrows because of their funky poses and crazy expressions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One handed use is still taught, even though primary duelling (e.g. kendo) usage is 2 handed. You do get extra reach one handed, can wield another weapon in the off hand (an uncommon but real style, especially if outnumbered), and one handed obviously makes more sense on horseback.

Such blades are nicely balanced, and easier to use one handed than European Hand and a Half Sword (which is a Bastard Sword, not a Broad Sword).

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

Shields
"Sode (Shoulder Armor)
The sode were pieces of armor that protected the warrior's shoulders. Early samurai warfare consisted predominately of mounted archery, and therefore it seems that the sode were first developed out of need to provide the mounted warrior with a type of shield, that would allow him to have both his hands free for rider the horse and firing the bow. The sode used in the earlier Kamakura period (1185 - 1333) were much larger than those produced in the Warring Sates period (1477-1603); this was largely due to the improvements in the developments of the kote (armored sleeves) and do (body armor)."
http://www.geocities.com/bushiminiat...ponsarmor.html

Bows / Archery
The bows are quite impressive, as is the archery. But it's subject to the same individualism that all japanes combat in that period shows.
There where great numbers of bow-toting samurai, no question.
But they didn't fire as massed archers with high, ballistic trajectory like e.g. the english longbows did.

But shield are more or less useless against low-trajectory, high-speed arrow which are actually aimed at uncovered areas. Either the target spots the arrow and can step aside etc., or it doesn't and cannot block with the shield either.


Katana
These swords aren't heavier than their european 1,5-hand counterparts. Maybe even lighter, but "statistically relevant" data is hard to come by. However, they are easily wielded with one hand, as the curved blade puts the C.G. back from the edge and more above the hand.
While swinging the blade is held much more upright, so that e.g. you could stop a blow just halfway through without the blade "dangeling around", as the force is projeted straightly to the hand below. With a european-type straight sword, the C.G. would be well outside the hands arc, so an instant stop would put great torsion on the wrist. (Been there, tried that, got hurt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

A big part of this is lost with the straight two-hand wielded split-bamboo practice sword, called shinai, which handles much more like their european counterparts. It resembles more the ancient dunno-how-it-was-called "first sword" that was used in Japan than the famous Katana.
This has a BIG influence on fighting style. To study Katana-styles, watch Kurosawa (sp?)- films ("Seven samurai" etc.): A Katana (or Tachi or Wakizashi) is used in a cuttingway in contrast to the hacking or chopping that goes along with straight blades.

There are good-balanced wooden katanas available, though, and I would recommend those for exercise.

A.

[ December 04, 2003, 19:01: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: What role does a shield play?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I agree. But these doesn't encurage them to use shields http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obviously, but aren't they generally havyier? (I'm not sure about this).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, what I was thinking about? To much Neverwinter... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif