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Please Help Me Tune My Man
After playing around with a bunch of nations/themes (though nowhere near half of them), I've actually done really well with Man. Surprising, since I used to get my head handed to me quite readily in DomI with the same nation. Either they're stronger or I'm better (than I was).
I'm not too keen on a lot of aspects of pretender creation (like building a pretender using complementary schools; so far I just ape my nation's magic so that my pretender is more along the lines of a pre-empowered mage). I'm looking for advice on tuning my game/play style with this nation. Pretender: Druid (erm, the extra-vine-summons guy) 6 Nature, 4 Earth. Wizard's Tower 1 Growth, 2 Order, -1 Luck; leftover points into Dominion. Minuses: Longbowmen never hit anything. Weak priests means my prophet is usually my starting scout. Infantry kind of suck. Knights of Avalon are incredibly good. Too bad they're also incredibly expensive. Mage production sucks, since it's capital-centric. Plusses: Huge armies of Wardens, commanders decked out with dual Serpent Kryss and berserker pelts. Crude, but doesn't require me to focus heavily on construction, leaving me more time to research Conjuration. Can't wait to try this with nature-9. The best researcher-for-cost is the Daughter of Avalon, which is easily affordable. I'd buy one of these and my holy-unit allowance of Wardens. Playing against the easy Ulm on Britain (man, is that map a pain for anyone playing against Vanheim), I started in Ireland and quickly took control of the western island before venturing east. Ulm was sort of in the Scotland area; the AI did a poor job of defending their poor (isolated) Freak Lord when I finally breached the castle walls with a horde of Vine Ogres and Wardens. His masses of Blade Winds did cut down several ogres, but a Heroically Speedy Lord Warden quickly cut him down to size. All in all, this is the most effective game I've ever played. So, how do I tighten it? My armies were mostly Warden-centric, backed up by frontlines of Vine summons and flanked by longbows. I largely ignored the rest (with the exception of a wandering troop of flanking Avalon Knights which gladly lent support to several other armies). I've essentially ignored all of Man's other troops, since they tend not to be alive very long. |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
Use Wind Guide and have fire magic on you pretender, casting Fire Arrows with massed longbows ---> massacre.
Lamias are a good choice for nature magic summoned troops later on, better than vine creatures maybe, though you get less of 'em. Maybe take the Naga with 9 nature for the blessed wardens and strong lamia summoning. Just ideas... |
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No complaints. I'm inexperienced enough with the spell list to not know which schools to research; by the time I'd hit Ulm's capital, my research tree looked like: Conj-9 Const-4 Thaum-2. I had a Tarrasque and hadn't even cast Haruspex in all the provinces I owned yet.
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Order 2/Luck -1 is dangerous. Order 3/Luck -3 is cheaper, safer, and grant you a better income. Quote:
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I've never thought of backing with a frontline, but whatever works! As an aside - can you make mercs into prophets? That would be interesting to do with Terminus. And Lastly~ Were you summoning vines with your pretender? That seems like a waste, when Man has a ready supply of cheap mages that, with ivy crowns, can give you all the vine creatures you want, and free up your pretender to do useful things at which pretenders excel (forge, research, search, fight). |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
Generally I would use the ability to select the magics on my pretender to choose magics I CANNOT get with that nations mages. Spread out the spells you can do and items you can build.
Considering the bless benefits is something to consider also. 4 in any magic gets you something and 9 gets you something else. Definetly choose castles with towers. Man puts archers in them (longbows?), and they can be very handy. Keep in mind that the advantage of longbows is damage and range. They can be set farther back than shortbow archers. Setting them to the sides (flanks) seems to lower the chance of friendly fire hitting your own men |
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Virtue - air 9 Fortified City Production, Order, Misfortune all +3 Other scales even, or if you want better econ and can deal with slower research, I'd suggest Growth and Drain both +2/+3 Dominion strength 6 Gives you great income, lots of Wardens that laugh at enemy/friendly fire, including your Crones' orb lightnings or wrathful skies, and hopefully you'll be able to spare some gold to max Warden production at your capital. You can't get nature-9 as efficiently I think. |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
Also remember you can put a Vine Crown (Construction 2) on a Crone and have them chainritual Vine Ogres. This can form up either a flank or the center, leaving your Wardens to be a flanking force. Also Vine Ogres have a Stratic movement of 2, so you can move reinforcements of them and Longbows together fairly quickly.
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PROPHET FOR SALE, PROPHET FOR SALE! For a meagre 200 gold you will also get this army of fine men! Delivered right on your doorstep. Buy him today, only one remains! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
My opinions only, take it for what's it's worth:
I avoid Vine men/ogres as they eat up too much mage-time to cast. I suggest: Manticore - 6 astral Order, prod, growth, misfortune, all +3 Drain +2 Wizards tower Don't invest in wardens, they are not very worthwhile as "bless effect" troops (IMHO). Make Crones, they are great mages. Research: Alteration - 3 Enchantment - 3 Have the manticore cast body ethereal, luck, astral shield, astral weapon, resist magic, and then attack (rearmost). This should rip up most armies unless they have mage back-up. Research: Conj - 3 Summon Wyverns with air gems and Prides of Lions with nature. In multiplayer consider holding nature gems for mass Call of Wilds. Research: Evocation-5 If you need mage power in battle bring in crones. Have them cast eagle eye if they are shooting lightnings. Use Orb Lightning and Poison Clouds on the enemy. Practice with the clouds... don't want to kill your own troops! Place the crones near each other. Bring in a few bards. Have them sing soothing songs. This will relieve the spell fatigue of the crones. Research: Enchantment -4 Now you can use Cloud Trapeze to move Crones fast. Research: Thaumatugy -7 Use sleep and charm to round out the crones arsenal. In addition you can try: Wrathful Skies (evo-6) with a mage that comes in with air-3, or Foul Vapors (ench-5) with a crone that comes in water-1. These will lightning bolt or poison the battlefield every turn. However to do this in safty you will need to protect your own troops from lightning and poison. The wards are enchantments, but the low level ones only affect a limited number of troops. Take care and practice this sort of thing so you cut back on friendly casulaties. Beyond this just use a mass of Tower Guard backed up by longbow. It's not flashy, but performs just fine. If I encounter size 3 tramplers (minotaurs or shamblers) I counter with knights, which are too large for the small tamplers to slam through. Once you have good income and some crones, don't hesitant to send some out to do site searching. Exploit whatever you find. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Put down a wizards tower on any province that has 20K+ population or is a big resource producer. If you must use Vine men/ogres then mass a lot of them. Back them up with crones casting sleep clouds and poison clouds, neither or which will affect the vine creatures. [ December 04, 2003, 19:33: Message edited by: apoger ] |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
A note about wardens. Lord Warden and Wardens are one of the most powerful sneakable forces there is. Crones at home can be ready to rain Call of Wild/Wind onto any province that your sneaking army finds to soften it just before the atack.
Finding a druid province can give you sneakable archers. Or one with villains but thats more difficult. Add to that Bards, Monks, and Mother of Avalon you get the ability to completly and quickly setup shop in any province you take. Once its setup and operating on its own your sneaking army can move on. OK its a tactic. And one that doesnt appeal to everyone. But it is effective if it fits your style. |
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I was wondering if you do make a mercenary into a prophet, and let someone else hire it, does it then spread your dominion wherever its new employers send it? PvK |
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I was wondering if you do make a mercenary into a prophet, and let someone else hire it, does it then spread your dominion wherever its new employers send it? PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think we tested that in Dom1 and no, it didnt. It was interesting to get 2 prophets. |
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Of course I'd lost the impact of a strong supercombattant, but now the Wardens are worth building (and consequently the Fortified City also is) and an air-9 Virtue isn't useless in the battlefield either. Eek, depending on who you're up against, and with minimal equipment and buff spells, she can even be used as a meleer. Have you ever tried what a lucky/ethereal/air shielded/mistformed/mirrored air-9 Virtue (needs one astral mage obviously, but you'll get one eventually) can do if you have her fly in the rear of the enemy to wreak havoc with showers of shockwaves? I'd say it's as impressive as what an astral Manticore can do. |
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This is strickly from a MP point of view. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
You should always be using your crones for some magic beatdown; yes. But psychology is just as much a part of diplomacy as position and power. And a numbers and scouting (and in turn opponents scouting you) play a large role in when and where you will be attacked. That is why I consider 2 or 3 Crones on Vine Duty if they are not needed in a desperate fashion, essential to having a quick reinforcement/Call of Wind/of the Wild beatdown force as well as a psychological gauging of numbers by your opponent. |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
>Hmmm, I won't agree with you on this. Warden may have lost their +3 to strength and attack in Doms 2, but I think air shielding and lightning protection would more than make up for this.
I am sure many will disagree with me on this, but in my opinion there are few sacred troops worth going out of your way for. They are expensive and slow to build. In order to justify their value I demand serious firepower or resiliency. So far the only sacred troops that I like are Hydra and Niefel Giants (and I'm not a fan of the themes with which they are attached). If I can get some "bless effect" while designing my pretenders I certainly do it. However I do not design my pretenders to do blessing effects as their primary purpose (so far...). The air-9 Virture would have impressed me more in Dom1, however Wrathful Skies has been toned down enough that air-9 no longer equals an instant army killer. Partial missile and lightning protection for Wardens does nothing for me as it leaves them as nothing more than very expensive HI. I'd rather have a Fire-9 Dragon. Such a dragon could go out and take provinces early, and thus expand the economy. Plus the Wardens would get an impressive bonus to hit and 8AP fire damage (extra attack and damage is a synergistic effect). However I recommend the "astral manticore" for new players that ask for advice, since it's effectively a tutorial showing how to develop combat oriented gods. It allows for fast expansion. Provides good defence until the late game. And can devour many other pretenders in a melee fight (like the virtue or dragon from above). It's my standard suggestion since it's easy and strong. |
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Other decent sacred creatures for bless effects are Machakan HunterSpiders, Van, Tuatha, Celestial Soldiers plus awhole range of sacred mages who profit from reinvigoration, quickness or maybe a bit of unlife after death. I'm sure I've missed a few I've forgotten or haven't tested yet. I know you are mourning the old Lava Warriors Alex but the new ones can be spectacular with earth9 and Abyssian mages love it to. Quote:
Bottom line for me is bless effects are new and we simply can't know, at this point, all the opportunities they can open up so I'm certainly going to keep trying and see what I come up with. I also have a bad feeling that Illwinter might adjust the turmoil/order/luck/misfortune in a way that wipes out dual bless effects races and many single ones so its a matter of making hay while the sun shines. I'm still bemused that so many people think you can take away 120 design points and imagine that borderline races will survive the experiance. There is part of me that looks at a race like Pythium and says "If you are happy to give them everything why not just give more to the weak races strategies." Then again when you compare most races to Pythium its a matter of "race balence? Didn't realise there was any." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I haven't played Man main theme since I first got Dom1 so I don't have alot of useful to add other than agreeing with Nagot that the Earth Mother is a good earth bless effects god. The Cyclops is acutally the cheapest if you only want Earth9 and for all the criticism he gets is rather effective with prot 29. Cheers Keir |
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(1) in Doms 1 Wardens died in droves to crossbow fire, luckily your Crones could negate this weakness easily with Storm or the staff of the same name. An air-9 Virtue is as close as you can get to what you had then, with the added benefit that you can now play Wardens and LBs in the same army (in Doms 1 you had to choose LBs or Storm, you couldn't get both at the same time). (2) in Doms 1 Wardens where "naturally" immune to lightning once you had Enchantment 4, thanks to Crones again. Thunder Ward is nerfed now, but again an air-9 Virtue is as close as what you had then. The loss of attack and strength bonuses is minor when compared with these 2 issues. Actually in Doms 1 the all-powerful Storm made Wardens, Temple Guards and Emerald Guards look better than they really were. Quote:
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Anyway the high morale and +3 boost when blessed are still there. I think we'll agree that the nerfed Storm (and to a lesser extent the nerfed Thunder Ward) makes HI a bit less attractive than they were in Doms 1. But now imagine a battle between Wardens and Emerald Guards, with missile support on both sides (say, crossbows for Pythium). Gee, forget it, I guess you'll tell me you aren't using EGs anymore because of their cost and the lack of D1-like Storm, and the new legionaries are better? Quote:
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Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
>But Man is special as it lacks good shock infantry bar Wardens,
If I need shock value from Man I go with Knights. >in Doms 1 Wardens died in droves to crossbow fire, luckily your Crones could negate this weakness easily with Storm or the staff of the same name. An air-9 Virtue is as close as you can get to what you had then, with the added benefit that you can now play Wardens and LBs in the same army I have never had trouble with missiles and my wardens or tower guard. I always have my own longbow firing at enemy archers. It's enough to get me through without missile protection. Storms was used to protect MAGES, not troops. When storms was up it would keep flyers from jumping the mages, and would prevent archers from picking them off. In dom2 storms has the same flyer stopping effect and we can no longer target mages with archers... so the use of storms really hasn't changed. Plus the staff o' storms is back to cons-4. I'm going to be holding one in every battle I can. >in Doms 1 Wardens where "naturally" immune to lightning once you had Enchantment 4, thanks to Crones again. Thunder Ward is nerfed now, but again an air-9 Virtue is as close as what you had then. I never had a problem using orb lightning around my wardens, and I would never use wrathful skies unless I had 100% protection, so nothings changed. >You can't always rely on LBs with a thin screen of Tower Guards to do the job, or soon someone will pick a Staff of Storms and use Mist to make the life of your bowmen miserable. I don't use a thin screen. They are the bulk of my army with the exception of the first few turns. >Also, what about sneaking Wardens in enemy territory, I don't. They are too expensive to use for such work, plus they get caught sometimes (unacceptable). When I "sneak attack" as Man is is by: 1- Call of the Wild 2- Call of the Wind 3- Faery Trod (in dom2) 4- Crones (Cloud Trapeze, then summoning air elementals) 5- A flying or teleporting pretender My infantry is back with the army... where it belongs. >I think we'll agree that the nerfed Storm (and to a lesser extent the nerfed Thunder Ward) makes HI a bit less attractive than they were in Doms 1. Both HI and Storms... still good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif >Gee, forget it, I guess you'll tell me you aren't using EGs anymore because of their cost and the lack of D1-like Storm, and the new legionaries are better? I have actually started to like the "Principe" troops that Pythum now has. But it has nothing to do with Storms. >Early you're likely to meet lots of independents with missile backup, including LI with javelins. Just the kind of indeps a small army of air-shielded Wardens adn LBs would shred to bits. OTOH with a fire-9 dragon you'll have to rely on Tower Guards with much larger numbers of LBs to do the same job, or accept Warden losses. With 3/turn only (because of the dragon's low dominion) you could as well forget building Wardens for some time. You should pratice with a fire-9 dragon. They need no support at all. It speeds up the province grabbing tremendously. Just learn what provinces to avoid. >or is Arrow Fend good enough to more than negate Wind Guide? Arrow Fend is great, and replaces much of the bless efffect you are pushing for (air shield 80). |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
Stand by your Man!
(Sorry, sorry, move along please) |
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Jebus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Just play each other and you can test your styles and see which one is 'better'. Or it could be that you play them both very well and each have their own advantages. I prefer early super-combatants to orb-specialists, so I use some of Alex's ideas, though I think NGF's are completely viable as well; depending on how and what you are playing. |
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I have been using Abyssian combat mages since I first began playing dom1 and Abyssia is historically my favourite race. While they do suffer they have their value. My standard first turn is to build an Anathement Dragon to command my first army and use all my resources on HI and/or Lava warriors while cashing in all my gems. The anthement Dragon can cast Flare in between Fantacism/Divine Blessing and gets onto the hall of fame. Fanaticism makes all the difference to early expansion and allows the use of the early small units approach which increases the reliability of early expansion with Abyssia. You'll notice the Cyclops mentioned had Air3. For . . . Eyes of Aiming. Anathement Salmanders are far from hopeless combat mages with Phoenix Power and Fire Ball. In the first MP game I played of Dom1 I ended up with a bunch of mages dominating the Hall of fame until my Ice Devils got going. I would choose wether or not I liked their heroic ability to decide wether or not to keep them as army mages or send them searching. With increased precison (Eyes of Aiming etc) Fire Balls etc become deadly and Falling Skies is a nice new addition. So yes I am speaking from experiance not just blowing smoke. Sure I want the precision of Abyssian mages improved but thats not because I don't use them - its because I use them and know how hard you have to work to make them effective. Sure I could give up on them because they score low on efficiency but if I approach themes/races like that they will all end up looking somewhat similar. Like Nagot I find Pythium et al somewhat unappealing and I'm more interested in trying to make less mainstream approaches work. You can find some hidden beauties (or monstrosities) with this approach. Cheers Keir ps If I was going to use Pythium I'd put together a mixed force of the 2 strat move legionaries and the emerald guard can go sit on their plumes. |
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However... I don't use eyes of aiming, ever, because I don't like to wound my commanders. And without them, Dom II Abyssian mages are about 1/10th as good as Dom I Abyssian mages in combat. Though flare seems to be working better than Fire Flies/Darts... hmmmm. Must be the prophet precision bonus, plus the 1 extra precision of Dragon versus Demonbred. And now that I look, the Dragon prophet gets 12 precision instead of 10 like it should. Hmmm... Well, that's an odd bug, or something. You got lucky=) P.S. Does Chest Wound or Eye Loss from a magic eye or heart heal, say from the Heal command or in an immortal, while the item is still in the commander? |
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Which sacred troops do you think are justified even with their cost? I think Niefel giants are a no-brainer.
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Heh. Does anyone play the Druid for anything (stealth, perhaps) if his vine summoning isn't all that great?
Wardens make for a wonderful elite troop. I haven't seen anything wrong with bless effects on them, since they seem to be the perfect platform to build on; they're fast, stealthy, and hit a lot. Air definitely seems to be a good choice; I've already seen the power of taking a very high Nature http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Not to mention the Warden Commander with Heroic Quickness tends to decimate things quickly; I even had some luck making him a flanker-attacking-rear instead of purchasing the very expensive Knights. |
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Building around stealth is a subject unto itself. Players who build around visible armies tend to disregard stealth entirely since its often on units that they dont feel are worth using. To a lot of them stealth=scout.
I like stealth armies. Wardens (especially if you can add those druid archers) make a nice army. Mans ability to soften with Call of Wild/Wind makes it even better. Having stealth mages and priests is yet another step up since its so easy for them to completely setup shop in the new province. |
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Joonie's question is interesting, but maybe it should make another thread. I've been wondering why some sacred units seem to be overlooked. Battle vestals seem almost equivalent to serpent dancers for cheaper, get around the lack of armor somehow and they look very appealing. And it seems with any minor bless heart companions are a better deal than standard hoplites...they only cost a little more, barely more upkeep (important for such sturdy units), and with the right blessing they get signifigantly better...some fire-9 heart companions can stop and repel the enemy and then hit back in force. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Reading through the previous Posts, I'm very thankful for Alex's (astral-based) research path- it shows me what I'm supposed to be aiming for. Does anybody have any research paths to maximise the use of Nature? Haunted Forest is a great long-term goal but I don't know what to look for early on (except Thaum-2 Haruspex).
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While I understand the value of positive dominion scales and put them to good use in Dom1 I like the bless effects because: a) They are new b) They create intersting combo's/synergy c) Patching luck/misfortune, order/turmoil, may be fairly devestating for serious bless effect races so it may be now of never. Of course it may open new possibilities but Illwinter tend to make strong things weaker based on the changes from Dom1 to Dom2. The reason I haven't looked at Battle Vestals or Heart Companions is quite simple - I don't play Arco or Pythium as they are overpowered (race balence?). While I joined Dom1 late I am a very experianced MP/PBEM player so I stick to lesser lights and leave the glamour boys for others. Having said that 1 strat move sacred troops which you can only build in your capital (ie Heart Companions) are only worth "bless effecting" so much as you can't base your game plan around them without suffering berserk snail syndrome. You are right that there are still numerous sacred troops to try and make something out - go for it. cheers Keir |
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Alteration 3 : "Protection" - better armor for your troops Conjuration 1 : "Tangle Vine" - good supporting spell for Bard Thaumaturgy 2 : "Haruspex" - you've mentioned it Conjuration 3 : "Call of the Wild" Enchantment 2 " "Personal Regeneration" - good for Super-Combatant Conjuration 5 : "Awaken Sleeper" Construction 4 : for "Vine Shield" and "Ring of Regeneration" Thaumaturgy 4 : "Gift of Reason" - could be very powerful Conjuration 6 : "Contact Lamia Queen" Some additional nice goodies: Enchantment 4 : "Poison Ward" Enchantment 5 : "Foul Vapor" - a standard combo for Man, "Gift of Health" Enchantment 6 : "Faery Trod", "Relief" There are a few new, basic attack spell in the Evocation school. I haven't tried them yet. While playing Man, also pay attention to Air. Try to reasearch for levels that give you good spells in both. |
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Might as well add my priorities for nature research:
Alt. 6 - Mass Protection costs a gem, but everyone gets barkskin - great for turning medium armour units into high-armour units Conj. 4 - Strength of Gaia Conj. 5 - Howl Strength of Gaia gives side benefits as well as increasing your nature power, and howl is a nice way to harass casters since you can't target them anymore Ench. 4 - Haste Ench. 6 - Relief Haste is nice if you're fighting an enemy big on missile weapons Thaum. 5 - Growing Fury Thaum. 7 - Charm Growing Fury makes your guys go berserk, which means they won't rout. This is good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Charm is high-level, and short range, but otherwise good news Construction (in general) Everybody likes construction - specifically for treelord's staff or thistle mace to boost power, and if you have air various anti-missile items. Re-invigoration items are always nice too. I don't much go for evocation, unless I'm making a poison-resistant army - which takes a lot of gems for summoning, and isn't always compatible with your regular army. just my 2 cents |
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"Charm" is nice but wasn't really practical In most cases, it's easier to kill an enemy than to defeat his/her MR. Also, anything beyond Level 6 is usually too late in the game to give a rule - you don't really know whehter you want to focus on Nature and you might have priority in some other paths. "Evocation" is important for Man (Air), at least for the "Orb Lightning" or "Wrathful Sky". |
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>I've forgotten "Mass Protection".
I find it's only really useful when you have a mass of very low protection troops (like maenads). If your army already has good armor the boost is almost nothing. >"Haste" is new in Dom 2 - I think, I haven't checked it out yet. Needs a gem and has high fatigue cost. I don't see it as a spell I will race for. >I have mixed feeling on "Growing Fury". I haven't Lasted long enough as Man in MP to check out how useful it is yet. Absolutely awesome spell. It fixes all morale problems in one spell. Love it. >"Charm" is nice but wasn't really practical In most cases, it's easier to kill an enemy than to defeat his/her MR. Also, anything beyond Level 6 is usually too late in the game to give a rule - you don't really know whehter you want to focus on Nature and you might have priority in some other paths. I have found Charm worth racing for. Against conventional troops you get a lot of value by converting an enemy troop. Your enemy loses one. You gain one. Plus the one gained is in the enemy line and causes a bottleneck. A bunch of Charmed can really jam up an enemy army and save wear and tear on you own troops. Against non conventional forces Charm is super potent. Grabbing an enemy Hydra, Elephant, Giant, Commander with items... can easily alter a battle, and better yet can get you excellent troops for free (if they survive). Keep in mind that Charm gains synergy with mass use. When I use it, I almost always have many mages casting. Usually no less that ten. Casting ten charms a round, round after round, and you can often end battles with more troops than you started with. Nature magic has many useful spells, but Charm, Growing Fury, and Relief, are the ones that get "great" results on the battlefield (in my experience). Sleep and Poison clouds almost make the grade, but are somewhat situational. On some occasions ordinary "Sleep" can be used to good effect, although in most cases it gets replaced by charm once the research is done. |
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Thats why I like rushing for hellbind heart if Im using blood. 2-blood magics and get someone to switch sides. I especially like it with assassins (the commander attacks his province), and used with snatching spells with a bunch of blood mages waiting at a lab. |
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Charm seems like it would be most effective versus the quality-troop nations, i.e. Abysia, Jotunheim, and maybe Ulm. Well, maybe I'm just thinking Ulm because of their low MR. After having read this thread, I can certainly see adjusting my on-the-fly strategy to take advantage of this spell if I find myself neighboring one of these nations.
Hellbind Heart also sounds great, but for Man would require branching into blood. Is it more effective than Charm, or is it just the lower research cost and the fact that it requires easy-to-harvest slaves? |
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Even Ulm benefits. Protection-18 Ulm HI goes to 24, a +6 bonus, as opposed to the +3 bonus from Legions of Steel. Or in addition, if you prefer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif -Cherry |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
If memory serves, Mass Protection = Mass Barkskin, and Barkskin only gives a single +1 PROT once above a certain threshold.
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Barkskin gives 10 natural protection or +1 natural protection, whichever is greater. So units with 0 natural protection and 10 armor protection get 10 natural protection and 10 armor protection, which sum to 18. The forumla: N=natural, A=armor, T=total T=(N+A-(N*A/40)), rounded up. |
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>You forgot that his troops often leave the battle.
I have no idea what this means. A reference to the charmed often perishing due to proximity to the enemy troops? >Thats why I like rushing for hellbind heart if Im using blood. Hellbind Heart is also good, and is what you use if you have blood magic. However it requires a blood slave and has a fatigue cost of 100. Not nearly as castable as Charm (no gem cost, 30 fatigue), or even Enslave Mind (no gem cost, 20 fatigue, 100 range!). |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
I would have to agree about mass protection being overlooked...most infantry gain at least +6 prot from it. It raises 15 -> 22 protection if I remember right, and that's by no means a bonus to be overlooked.
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Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
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Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
>Common misperception=)
>Barkskin gives 10 natural protection or +1 natural protection, whichever is greater. So units with 0 natural protection and 10 armor protection get 10 natural protection and 10 armor protection, which sum to 18. Ah, it's been changed from Dom1. You are quite correct, it's worth casting now since it does offer a hefty armor increase. Glad to see it made useful. |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
>If you snatch the commander from them then when you attack, those troops rout. Beautiful sight to see.
I see, yes when you are lucky enough to snag a commander it's a wonderful thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
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Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
Barksin has always been good, and even better on troops with good armor. It only sucks on things that normally have a high natural protection.
Mass Protection is alot of bang for 1 gem, plus the armor benefits can stack with Growing Fury. Single castings of Protection/Barkskin can also be effective on things like Elephants/Hydra, or Sidhe commanders. In particular the synergy with Regeneration is nice. In Dom 1 I fairly often would give important armored commanders Barksin amulets, as the extra protection made them much more survivable against mundane troops. |
Re: Please Help Me Tune My Man
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Even Ulm benefits. Protection-18 Ulm HI goes to 24, a +6 bonus, as opposed to the +3 bonus from Legions of Steel. Or in addition, if you prefer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif -Cherry </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excellent point. Barkskin/MassProt isn't that useful for units with high NATURAL protection (cave drakes, trolls, cyclops, Jotuns?). But it's great for units with high ARMOR protection and little or no natural protection. Protection gives increasing returns against most attacks - after you get above the attacker's str+dam, it becomes increasingly more likely that you won't be damaged at all (below that it just improves the chances of being wounded instead of killed). Also, magical forms of protection don't reduce your defense or increase your encumbrance like more armor does. |
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