The docs suck! (rant)
 

A bit of a rant: I remember hearing that they didnt want to distribute the docs with the demo cuz they wanted to make it more difficult for pirates.

After I got the game, I have to say THE DOCS SUCK!

There is like 10 pages of 'real' information that is actually usefull, the other 120 pages are full of regurgitated spell and item descriptions. Man what a let down.

It would really have put warm fuzzies in my heart and feel that the doc writers actually earned their money if they put descriptions of the units, races, etc.. Anything EXCEPT the stuff that's already in in-game help.

BUT, I know how it is... we already bought the game, so why bother having the doc writers spend an extra 2 weeks of writing and editing? You have our money, so mission accomplished.

Not only that, but I bet the docs were written months before content was actually finished.

AND ONE MORE THING: since the docs basically suck, why not allow people to buy the game Online? The manual is NOT helpfull enough to be nessicary.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

by the way, i know the 'yes-sayers' are going to say "but the nations and units are doced in-game too"....

that's not what I mean... for example, I've never played Dominions 1 before....

so how am I to know that if you pick Carion woods, that your population is going to drop even tho growth is set at 2? or that most of your units are going to be undead, which are going to require ritual spells and re-animations?

I guess that's kinda the frustrating thing... sure you can figure this stuff out on your own eventually, but 20 pages of docs devoted to the intricacies of nation administration and/or strategy would have went a long long long way.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

Oh no! I can't read the in game notes on a race!

Document it!

Don't make me figure it out every different theme or read them when I select them, have them all clearly labeled with exact forumulas for everything!

Just "Yes'n" away for IW.

Seems about as appropriate as ranting on the fact that you have a manual and it isn't as thick as the Statutes for New York with that level of detail.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Yess'n" : I think forgoing 75 pages of spell descriptions (which are very easily accessable in-game) and including a 5-10 page quick-start would have been a marked improvement.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I respect both where Zen and where jaytau are coming from.

I will have to admit that I initially found the documentation somewhat lacking and found myself wishing I could buy a hintbook for the game until I realized how helpful everyone was on this site.

If you are puzzled or stumped, jaytau, just ask your questions on this board. There are many nice folks here, including it seems to me some of the folks who developed the game, who will come to your aid. Especially if you ask nicely rather than ranting.

What I dislike most about the documentation is lack of an alphabetical index, either in-game or at the end of the manual. Someone tells you xxxx is a nice spell...you have to spend a while finding its description because the descriptions are organized by school rather than by spell name. The magic items are similarly organized by power rather than by name or type of magic.

I actually enjoy finding out how powerful things are in-game. But if you are trying to get into MP, I can understand how it might be frustrating for you if the other folks you are playing with have a better idea of game mechanics than you do.

If I find myself with a lot of spare time over the holidays (unlikely), I may make an index as it is something even a complete newb could contribute to the community, mostly for use by other new players.

-SM

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I believe a Terms index would probably do the job and make whatever printing cost more availiable.

Thinks I often hear are:

Sorcery: Paths in Nature, Blood, Death, Astral.
Elemental: Paths in Earth, Air, Fire, Water.

Where the Manual really helps is things like provencial defense, fortress towers by race and their weapons, reanimation and calling spirits, and the nation specific spells near the back.

I would hope they would place compiled lists; as the players have shown to do, as an index; but considering the manual isn't 20 pages of a half-asses storyline and actually provides some valuable information. I consider it very decent. For the player who wants to be instantly 'good' however, the manual is not decent, it doesn't show you how to play the game, just gives you the tools to use your mind.

Edit: One thing I don't understand is why they couldn't put in the cost of gems for forged items.

[ December 05, 2003, 18:56: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I like the game, but let's be honest...

The docs are terrible.


Illwinter's philosophy seems to be one of hiding information so that the players can "discover" it. It is my personal conviction that this is the opposite of what software companies should do. I am an advocate of extensive documentation. I think the lack of docs is a disservice to the players and to Illwinter. I think they'd sell a lot more product if they documented their game properly. That's my opinion, FWIW.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I think there are 2 schools of thought here. One school is that this is a turn based strategic game and goes back to the tabletop wargaming which had every rule in the world and forumla and dice and everything for you to do the work. It was required that you have every conceivable rule availiable and documented in order to actually play.

Vs.

Computer gaming in general. Which give you the pretty girl and the flashy lights, but don't show you the dirty underbelly.

I look at the game as a Computer game in general, others may look at it as a old school strategy game.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

Those who can, do. And those who cant, teach.
Ive heard that so many times I wish I'd invented it so I could get royalties. But the flip-flop I toss back is that those who can, cant teach.

Why mention that here? Because Illwinter is a couple of guys who thought it would be fun to write a game. OK, granted, Dom2 moved into the "real" world with a marketer like Shrapnel (and the pricing) so it no longer gets the "garage business" protection that Dom1 had. But still, Ive had alot of experience in the subject and you dont want programmers/developers to write documentation. They cannot (CAN NOT) think of what needs to be known, and their answers tend to be formulas anyway. They know the game too well to document it. At best they should provide answers to someone who has experience at translating programmer to common english.

Fine. Illwinter should. Shrapnel should. We paid alot, we deserve it. But if you REALLY want it, this is my opinion of how it would best happen. Some NEW player who has aspirations of being a writer should start taking notes. What confused you? what answers did you get (that you understood)? what was funny? what seemed like a strategy tip? At the least level, web site it. At the dreamer level, sell it to Prima as a Dominions II Strategy Guide so we can all benefit from it (and help give the game the marketing boost it deserves)

Just my humble opinion

[ December 05, 2003, 19:08: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

It is a fair comment that the spell manual is redundant with in-game documentation (given that, unlike item descriptions, all spell descriptions can be browsed from the very start with just a couple of classes of exceptions (nation-restricted spells and holy/unholy; you can only view these descriptions once you have somebody with at least one point in all prerequisite paths).
It would have been useful for the manual to include advice on how to play the assorted nation/theme combinations, but I'm not really sure that at the time of release -- or even now -- there's that clear advice on them all.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Although I didn't play tabletop wargames, and I disagree with the tone of the original poster, I must say I also bleong to this Category. I simply appreciate everything more the more I know about the intricacies of design. Simply more things to appreciate that way, I guess, plus you get those thoughts about "How cool this idea/solution/feature is!" and all that.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I agree, Taqwus.

For instance, it could give you a starting theme and pretender suggestion for a fairly straightforward race like Ulm and then let you go from there while conceding that this is merely one viable example. Of course, most folks will have experimented with the Demo anyway and so will have some idea of how to start.

I do find that with no unit descriptions in the manual I have to start a game with a given race, see what they really have, then make a pretender based on their strengths and weaknesses. But I don't really mind that.

And Gandalf is right...the devs shouldn't try to make a manual. But if they could get an English major who's just graduate college and never played Dominions before and yet who is interested in the game to learn it and ask questions...that would probably result in something very useful.

The manual is useful for stating the type of ammo in the towers of fortresses but, unfortunately, doesn't state how many towers there are per type of fortress. I get that information here. This is really a wonderful site.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay great.. looks like i'm not the only one a little peeved at spending aprox $55 on a game and getting only a very slightly usefull doc.

As for me needing help, I acutally have been reading the fourms.. I guess I just want to play devils advocate here... especially since I see a number of threads and questions which honestly the docs should have covered.

Honestly for me, the only thing the docs were good for is describing the bless effects of magic levels and minor fort info... oh and item descripts cuz that's not discoverable too easily in the game. everything else is just filler.

Anyway, I'm done ranting. Chances are very slim that there will be an official strategy guide without costing another $19.95 + $6 S&H but i can always dream.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I can imagine some people being disappointed with the manual. Personally, I rather like it. More explanation of mechanics and things would be nice, and perhaps better than the spell/item lists, although I do like having the spell/item lists in a book with good table of contents.

It'd be hard to know when to stop detailing things, though, as there is so much detail in the game to describe. I think you mainly just need to know how to get started, and then learning how things work is fun for many players.

There is a ton of info available on this forum and on the web, such as the Doms II walk-through pages someone did, and the Doms I pages which give still-valid summaries of the strengths and weaknesses of most of the major nations, etc.

I expect that fans would probably be best at writing a user strategy guide.

PvK

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I agree that the docs aren't that good : 30 pages of user manual with some (basic) game workings/mechanics, then spell+item lists. No in-depth game doc, no tutorial, no advices, no unit lists, etc ...
I would have preferred to have a real detailed printed MANUAL, and some Excel or PDF http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif files with spells, items AND units lists.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I think the docs are both good and bad (how's that for making a stand? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

For someone who never played Dom 1, those first 10 or so pages are actually rather useful; I found out a few things I hadn't known before. And at least, unlike some manuals I could mention, the rules in the manual and the rules actually in place in the game are more or less in sync.

However, the list of spells and magic items has some deficiencies. First, that it isn't in alphabetical order, and second, that it's there at all instead of a list of units and their stats by nation. Some description of themes would have been nice as well.

I see no particular reason why spell descriptions and costs should be ok, but unit specs, etc. are "pandering to laziness." The game is either opaque or explained....

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

See, that is a good idea and other games have used it.

It is perfectly acceptable to have a PDF or even some uglish Excel file cleaned up with some spacing with all the units, items, and spells.

There was talk before the release about a tutorial/quick-start on the forums, but it was too late and the game was already to CD and package generation and printing done.

For the future though, I'd hope that IW would follow that path.

Maybe it is those who didn't already play Dom1 that found the manual decent; because even though I had skimmed the PDF of the Dom1 manual it was of quite a bit of help nailing things down.

In the end; I was happier about having an early(!) release as opposed to the UBER manual.

[ December 06, 2003, 00:10: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

The manual doesn't suck.

I hope the Illwinter boys will eventually give us back the nice .pdf docks, in addition to the manual we get when buying the game. For one thing, a nice A4 print is easier to read, and for another I like to have the color pictures for the magic items. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The manual is ok though, and very useful for a new user, I'm sure.

I like the way the manual is written. It's makes a much better read than a dry tech. manual detailing every game mechanic. It's good that somethings have to be found out during play. Much more atmospheric. Dominions is not just a dry wargame. It has much of the feel of a good fantacy epic or a RPG campaign.

Those who need to know everything beforehand (asberger syndrome being common with techie-types, of course) can find their demon-lord stats from some fansite anyway.

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

I like manuals a lot and I must admit that I was hoping something better for a so strategic game ... is not so bad (and sure, i prefer developers spent time in making good code and programming than making manuals) but it could be really better ... probably asking one of the people in the community (or in the beta tester group) to prepare a good manual for a free copy of the game and some money could be a better idea ...

i wasn't able to find on the manual quite anythinh about themes ... and I think is something important in the game ... a big miss

nothing about how to set up well a TCP server ... I know that there are command line sitructions (I use linux), but for a windows user ?

A more (not too much, but really a bit better) structured explanation on how the combat works and what exactly means a 2D6 open roll (you reroll every 6 or just if you got 12?)

I would have preferred units stats instead of magic items stats ... at least the starting units for each nations ... to be abble to understand strenght and weakness

But after all it's a niche game and people playing it usauslyy spent time reading forums and searching resources on the web ... of course if the aim of developers and shrapnel games was to reach a wide market, a good manual and a tutorial scenario are a must! ... and now come back to play!

Re: The docs suck! (rant)
 

There is a brief section about both TCP/IP and PBEM in the manual on page 6-7. The TCP/IP portion is a bit lackluster but the PBEM is very helpful. I think it mainly has to do that Illwinter can't know what type of settings you have for your computer or internet connection and chose the path of least resistance when coming to explaining it; hoping that people would know about their IP addresses, firewall problems, router issues and the like.

Though in the end I had to find the thread located here to host and serve on the same machine, which would have been a great inclusion.