Assasins
 

What items to do give to your assasins? What assasins do you use(from commanders, not spells)? Are they worth it or am i better of just pumping out other units?

I'm making an Assasin guide so I'm looking for answers like a noob is.

[ December 09, 2003, 21:34: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: Assasins
 

Well... you said you're looking for a n00b's view:

I don't use assasins. Wouldn't have a clue really. Only just now starting to think along those lines after having several frustrating combats which hinged on the AI having half a dozen mages. My initial thought would have been 'fully loaded' though, an item in every slot.

~Aldin

Re: Assasins
 

Perhaps "noobs view" was a wrong expression to use...

More likely:

I'm looking for answers like a noob is.

Re: Assasins
 

Heavy, heavy armor, since encumbrance is usually a non-issue.

Other than unit-generating items, I like giving assassins a ring of regeneration, a dragon helm (kills most enemies before melee range), a magic sword, and a magic shield.

What sword and shield? Not important, as long as they are cheap. Main Gauche, Sword of Sharpness, Ice Sword, Frost Brand, Lucky Sword are all good, as are Stinger, Enchanted Spear, and Thorn Spear (those are length 4). As for shields, a Lead Shield, Lucky Coin or Black Iron Tower Shield are nice.

Playing Marginon, I'd go with Fire Plate, Lucky Coin, Enchanted Spear / Fire Sword. The total cost (giving all gems a value of 15 gold) is 60+225+(3 witchhunter-turns = 15), or 300 gold. This is not bad for a unit that can slaughter many mages.

I find assassins to be not very useful without some equipment... slayers, bane spiders, empoisoners and star children are not included in that statement.

Regardless, the best use of an assassin is slaying mages. For that purpose, you need these properties: High MR, luck, high protection, and resistance to the elements. Elemental armor, therefore, is the best piece of equipment for an assassin. Lead shield or antimagic amulet, and lucky coin/lucky pendant/lucky sword, and an armor-piercing weapon (to take out bodyguards, and high-protection earth mages) would be all you'd need in addition to the armor.

Boots of quickness are also nice as they can get you to the target before it bLasts you from range.

But keep in mind that filling up all 7 slots with expensive stuff is not usually a good idea, unless you're making an invincible super-assassin that can summon skeletons and has a lifelong protection.

-Cherry

Re: Assasins
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, sorry, misunderstood.

~Aldin (who is also very interested in the answers)

Re: Assasins
 

Assassins are always good to have a few of. They are delay tactics, especially if you can get them in a supply line of ferrying commanders.

Unless I've had assassins fail before because of Banishment, I usually equip at least one of the following.

Lifelong Protection
Eye Shield
Skull Talisman
Dragon Helmet
Medallion of Vengance
Bow of (Anything)
Faithful
Antimagic Amulet
Lead Shield

The only time I make a 'super' assassin is if I get an assassin that gets into the HoF with something decent (Like Quickness) or a Succubus.

Re: Assasins
 

Prohpet assasins can work well as they can pray to get dominion high enough to be able to work without any magic items.

The skull amulet is an awesome item and can be enough by itself for basic work. Dragon helm etc is cute as are many other options but in general its best not to have to spend to much on equiping assasins as the return is generally not good enough.

Perhaps the best magic item is the contract of life long protection. One of those and a skull amulet and you have plenty to work with. An amulet opf anti-magic is perhaps the next thing to consider.

You need a few assasin to make them really effective. Assasins spend alot of time getting in postion so cheap assasins is probably the way to go. Assasins kill off leaders and making troops drop off from armies so the more of them you have the better they work. Assasins tend to work best in the first few strikes after which countermeasures can become serious. Vs the computer this is less of an issue and you can go for some fairly serious assasin abuse.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Assasins
 

I don't find assasins very useful, at least not against the AI. AI provinces almost always have provincial defense in place, and a decent amout of it, and therefore apart from the fun of using them, or an occasional lucky event of targeting just the right commander, they never gain you anything similar to getting a province without a fight. Sometimes they manage to stop an AI attack, or kill a merc commander, but those are defensive actions. On offense, they are not really useful.

[ December 10, 2003, 09:22: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: Assasins
 

I'm trying them in my first (solo) game with Marignon :
Naked they're useless, comma http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
The first I equipped had a poisoned dagger and a basic BS Plate : after killing some indies basic Commanders he was smashed by a paltry Barb leader http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
The current experimental one has Fire Bola and Fire Helmet, and a Skull Amulet (the one that creates skeletons) and fares much better. I'll give him a Shadow Robe I think, maybe a Barkskin Amulet also.

Re: Assasins
 

Some other points on top of my head, on assassins (in multiplayer, against AI you can do much more damages):

- forget about sending assassins into the heart of your enemy territory (unless he has sneak 30). You are better to set assassins ambushes by preplacing several unequipped assassins in a province which will soon be captured by the enemy, or an enemy occupied province near your lands, and where your enemy move troops. In the group, you can add 1-2 equipped assassins too (with the items mentioned by my fellows comrades).

- At the time you can afford to have 10+ assassins sneaking, you should tell you that even if 1 out of 3 manage to kill somebody important, then they are worth the cost. Generally you can kill mages which are scripted toward pitch battle, like a mage with a thunder ward / wrathful skies combo. Know though that with the improved tactical AI, perhaps dom2 will override better and will let the mage cast a lightning bold instead. Anyway, a mage killed, with items and/or gems is worth several lost assassins, so dont be dispirited by their lack of results. You win rarely, but when you win its like a jackpot. Another jackpot instance is when you kill a commander which lead important troops. It can lead to victory instead of defeat in the battlefied. Thats why assassins are nearly always worth their cost.

- decked assassins : you will equip an assassin only if it is of particular good value (good HP eg), otherwise forget about it. Exception, in the begining game against indeps, it can be worthy to add an item to your assassins so that they have no problems killing knight commanders or barbarians chief.

- Even if your assassins dont manage to kill anybody but scouts, they can be worth the cost, because it can forces the enemy to bodyguards with good units his important leaders. It is not uncommon to see a player react by adding 3-4 trolls, or knights, or lamias to protect a commander. Thats anyway units which wont be commited against you, so you have won something, even if you loose assassins regularly.
Assassins have an even higher value in games with high indep settings. They dont care if there is 6 commanders instead of 2. The province will ask for more time before falling, but is not harder. On the contrary your regular army will have to wait more turns to get the proper power to defeat high indeps settings.

Re: Assasins
 

Skull talisman is nice and extremely cheap. For similar reasons, it's hard to assassinate death mages -- the cheap battlefield summons. And be careful with feudal leaders, as it's not uncommon for even a priest to have one or more heavy cavalry as bodyguards...
Star children make nice assassins because of the prec-100 mindbLast, but against a leader with fast bodyguards or that can summon troops, they have problems.
Spirit helmet or phoenix rod are nice but very expensive. Boots of quickness = good combo with items that require action e.g. phoenix rod, skull talisman.

Re: Assasins
 

An Empoisoner with a Skull Staff (or something like that, gives +1 death magic) casting raise dead or raise skeletons is IMO the best type of assassin, since it's only one item and C'tis probably has plentiful death gems.

Re: Assasins
 

Generally speaking, I find assasins kind of inefficient: Investing coin & gems in some guys that are going to be sitting on their arses waiting for the right time to strike, or running around looking for the right place seems a waste most of the time.

Specially considering that you can get the same results out of magical assasination from the safety of your labs, with much more flexibility regarding the location to strike.

Re: Assasins
 

Pangea has a number of units I have fun turning into assassins with the heart. (at least in DOm 1 unless some fixes happened I havent tested) Some interesting tactics show up....

Such as using a Pan as an assassin. Expensive mage but it has some interesting bonuses. If you use an assasin now to take independents you need an army nearby to take the province. Its guesswork on when to attack. But if you have a Pan (with no maenads assigned to it) then maenads will appear and go to the bar to be assigned to a commander later. But they arent stealth so there is a fight. What this means is that the Pan will do an assassination, then a few maenads will attack the province. Basically they test the province automatically every turn. Repeat until all commanders are dead and the troops flee from the 3 or 4 maenads.

The same thing occurs in a different way if you use Pandemoniacs. With their blood magic they can cast "hellbind heart" as their first couple of actions in an assassinaton. This worked fairly often in turning the commander to your side. Of course the commander was usually not stealth so what followed was an immeadiate battle in that province between that commander and the units he used to fight with. Continue until the Last commander wins the province for you, then capture more slaves and move on.

[ December 10, 2003, 15:27: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Assasins
 

I've always wanted to make a mageslayer assassin with a Bow of Botulf.

Re: Assasins
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It can certainly be a big help in taking a province. Especially if the mage is leading alot of nasty summons.

[ December 10, 2003, 17:51: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Assasins
 

I can see a nice use for assassins if you are playing Ermor in multiplayer. You know your enemies will buy lots of priests, who hurt your undead, but are useless in hand to hand. If you send your assassins in against an army with lots of priests and only a couple of other commanders, the probability is that they will attack priests.

Any assassin will kill a priest, so you likely to get results with no loss. The main (or at least my main) counter to your undead has just been weakened and you have recouped most of the cost of your assassin. One more success and you are costing them more than you are paying. (I think priests cost 50 and assassins 60)

Re: Assasins
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The hard part is getting assassins as Ermor which cant be banished by priests. I havent played Ermor much in Dom2 but Im guessing this is still true.

You can use the heart thing to give assasin skills to any stealth unit. You might use a druid province to create units for that. Hmmm actually I guess in this case just a cheap independent scout would do. Never mind. I guess its not all that hard after all. Good idea.

Re: Assasins
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are wrong. The best way to kill commanders is to script your assassin to cast Swarm. Thats 1 nature gem per dead commander. It works better than a star child or whatever that R'lyeh assassin is called, and it is even better than spending 10 death gems to cast raise skeletons.

The reason is that once swarm is cast, the mage will be dead before he gets to pull off a spell. Any other commanders will also die very quickly.

[ December 11, 2003, 15:48: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Assasins
 

What school is Swarm?

Re: Assasins
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clever...=)

Re: Assasins
 

Thanks, Saber Cherry.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Level 4 Alteration. (Requires 1 Nature Magic)

Thats easier to get than Level 4 Construction and Level 2 Enchantment.

[ December 11, 2003, 17:00: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Assasins
 

I still think the best is 2-blood and "hellbind heart" (ok I never say best, how about high on the list?). You get the commander to switch to you with all their abilities and items. Plus THEY attack that province immeadiately after so if they are a strong commander, or the Last one, you get the province.

Even without assassins I have a liking for hellbind. 5-air will let you cast that whirlwind or whatever that snags a commander from a far province. So many stacked bonuses in that. Weakening an approaching army drastically (sometimes 100 troops or summons suddenly not commanded), gaining equipment you didnt have to make, gaining experienced commanders, types of units you cant normally build. I like to send an air mage to any red amazon province I find. Make a lab and set it up with one air mage and 3 or 4 bloodmages to do the hellbinds.

Re: Assasins
 

Thats all great and dandy, but
#1. Thats a lot of reaserch and magic
#2. I was just talking about C'tis assassins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 11, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Assasins
 

You can't entirely stop a mage from casting spells, because the defender gets first action.
I doubt Swarm would help much against ethereal, mistformed, or invulnerable commanders. Ever try to assassinate a Vanheim hero?

Re: Assasins
 

Well ok, Swarm doesn't always work. But I like it!

Re: Assasins
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My thoughts exactly. Swarm probably won't kill tough commanders, or commanders with bodyguards.

Re: Assasins
 

Swarm isn't very effective for killing*. Most of the time the only commander that dies to a swarm is one that would die to a poison dagger. What swarm is effective for is giving you time to cast eagle eye and decay.

Re: Assasins
 

As I see it the idea is that swarm means you only have to survive one round of casting which increases your survivability.

Nice idea - must try it as I like assasins.

Like your stealing commanders ideas Gandalf. Could be truly devestating if you got the right/wrong commander.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Assasins
 

It seems raise dead is the best way to go for assassinations.

I would have won my Last assassination if I pulled off two raise skeletons instead of one swarm and one raise skeleton.

Re: Assasins
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The hard part is getting assassins as Ermor which cant be banished by priests. I havent played Ermor much in Dom2 but Im guessing this is still true.

You can use the heart thing to give assasin skills to any stealth unit. You might use a druid province to create units for that. Hmmm actually I guess in this case just a cheap independent scout would do. Never mind. I guess its not all that hard after all. Good idea. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Banishment has terrible precision and usually misses single units. Furthermore a simple amulet of antimagic will make most undead commanders able to resist 80%+ of the time.

I remember a battle where my level 5 priest was facing a wraith centurion prophet and kept trying to banish him (always missing or being resisted) and I nearly yelled at the screen, "Smite him you fool!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif (I pity the fool that refuses to smite a wraith centurion.) Just because a target is undead does not mean banishment is the most effective option - or even an effective option - against it.

Re: Assasins
 

that sucks.