Stop the Insanity!
 

So as an HPL fan I've been trying my hand (er.. tentacle) at R'lyeh but am not having much luck, particularly with those Void Gate summons I hear so much about. It seems like 75% of summons end up with my squid going feebleminded; sometimes with gating in a few lesser beasts but most often failing or being attacked. I've never gotten to a summoning skill above 1, and most that make it that far are nuts. Is this pretty normal or am I doing something wrong - & is there anything that influences the rate of void success? Should I aim for a high local dominion, or strong magic or luck scales, or bring some units with me into the gate? Does Astral level help? (my few Astral 4 Starspawns have seemed to fare no better).

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

I am a total newb. I tried Ry'leh once and was not impressed with void summonings (and convinced I was doing something wrong).

I used cheap star children which do have astral and gave them illithid soldiers as bodyguards. I had them enter the site. I used to think that all you needed was one skill in the applicable ability (in this case, it looks to be astral) to make a summoning site work.

I had that starchild wait inside the gate for turns and turns. Nothing. Orders were clearly "enter site." I never figured out what I was doing wrong. I did take a high luck scale in this instance. I wouldn't have so much minded going insane, becoming mindless, etc...but nothing seemed to happen. Unless insanity isn't listed under abilities in the usual portion of the unit description when you inspect the unit.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Priestly level seems to help. Use priestly starspawns, not mages. I got to level 24 with my prophet without feeblemind.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Yes. To clarify: The void gate is meant to be used with Starspawns, even though it is not in the description of the gate or the unit. Any astral mage can enter, but normally there's a 75% (IIRC) chance of feeblemind, while Starspawns have only a 5% chance, and a certain hero has a 2% chance.

The description of the gate needs to have that info added, as currently it is driving newbies insane. Which is something Ryleh should never do... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Thanks I tried that just now and it seems to help a lot! I was indeed using the Starspawn mages, a bad assumption.. The first time I made the mistake of choosing the sea-anemone-shaped pretender with Astral 9, thinking he would be great in the Gate. Four turns and one insane sea anemone later I had learned my lesson!

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

I belive (from trial and error) that you should use a priest starspawn, as the other mage starspawns seem to go crazy 75% of the time also.

Again, I wish this type of stuff was called out in the docs. It's one thing for this stuff to be things you 'learn' on your own, when playing against the computer... it's totally another thing when you are playing a multiplayer game. And this game is supposed to be multiplayer, right?

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Hi,

I had a most pleasant time with the gate. I used a Starspawn and eventually tricked him out with a Charcoal shield, Lead shield, Spirit helmet, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Amulet of Anti-magic and Lifelong Protection.

By game end he got to level 23 and gave me some great summons: Numerous Great Otherness and a Vastness along with many, many other critters. I did have one guy before him that I didn't trick out with equipment that made it to level 12 before buying it. (Insanity.)

I did get the hero, but didn't want to risk him. The Lifelong Protection provided fodder to distract the Great Othernesses while my dude eventually fried them. I'm sure it would have also helped to have Empowered him. He was only 1 astral and 2 death.

Hope this helps,
V'ger gone

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

If you do decide to branch out to Fire, feebleminded starspawns are great repositories for Fever Fetishes.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

I've experiementing with the squids for a while now, and 5 summoned krackens seem to form a tough bodyguard for the void gater. I haven't lost a battle yet, even against 3 greater othernesses (didn't even kill 1 kracken). Of course, a vastness hasn't shown up...

I've just been using my insane priests as slightly tougher mind bLasters with boots of quickness.

To go a bit off topic, the main problem with this race seems to be money. Upkeep becomes horrendous for the mind bLasting troops, and I can never seem to gather enough troops to defend my new coastal conquests. My strategy has been to race to conjuration 9 for abominations (while scouring the seas for magic sites), then forming small squads of these nearly invincible beasts backed by mages and conquering away, but this takes a very long time, not to mention a great deal of upkeep for all of those researchers.

Anyone else have this problem?

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

I found R'lyh to be one of the hardest nations to play. As was stated they consume a lot of gold and by the time they get strong enough to move onto land their armies are dwarfed by the other nations. Thanks for the tips on Void Summoning that was driving me insane! What about the other sites to be entered, I've had much trouble entering the sites that improve combat, do they need a particular unit to enter?

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

With a decent bless effect (Water 9) the Squidies are even more powerful. Try putting a Shroud of the Battle Saint on a Star Child with a Spell Focus.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's why you move onto land as quickly as possible. Land provinces are easier to take than most water provinces for R'lyeh, as without tritons it takes much longer for the enemies to get to your line of mindbLasters.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

May I bump this up and ask a clarifying question or two?

The unit to use in the Void Gate is the cheap, 80 gp star child? Or is it the 150 gp Starspawn who has holy power?

Does the increased summoning skill help the chances of success? Does it reduce the chance of failure resulting in attack? Does it reduce the chance of feeble mind? Does it increase the chance of getting a more powerful unit or the number of units?

I have been playing with some success, but I have a few too many questions to feel that I have figured this one out. I do like the potential for attacking almost anywhere at any time. I am on the Britain map and have everyone surrounded. My capital is right near France, so I am sure this is were the English got their distrust of the French from!

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Use the Starspawn priest (150 g) or the Hero Cthugul. They are less likely (especially the hero) to get fried. They are not better at succeding, but with time and no insanity their skills will grow and they will be able to summon some rather powerful beings.

There is an increasing chance everey turn of a summoning (you do not get a monster every turn, but after 4 turns IIRC you have one for certain). Every successful summoning gives the summoner some experience in the summoning skill. When summoning increases the effects are better.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Thanks a lot for the clarification. I have been trying a number of different things over the Last couple of days. Having a good group of body guards is essential early on, as you I do not have the construction skills to build decent items.

It is still risky, as a big summoning gone wrong will wipe out your summoning skill and take the magic items and body guard away. 10% of all summonings will wipe out your summoning skill, leaving you with the minor summons resulting from low skill as you start again.

To be honest, it seems like a lot of investment for limited gain. To get the really good summons, you have to keep someone alive and sane for a long time. If he gets knocked out around turn 30, you have to start again and will not get much useful for that stage of the game. You know that feeble mind is going to knock him out at some point, so it is hard to justify. Perhaps a magic item which reduced the chance of feeble mind would make it more viable.

Also, the summons are your sacred troops. Given that you will not get many and their numbers and strength are pretty random, it is tough to plan a bless strategy around them.

Put another way, it is an expensive lottery ticket and I am not sure the prize is being paid!

On the other hand, I have had a tough time with other nations and would love to hear others methods for making this race a winner. I will check out the other thread.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldn't waste items on a Void Summoner - except a +1 astral item for Returning (Thaumaturgy 1), if you can't find a candidate priest with astral 2. Still, your summoner can be feebleminded and attacked in the same turn, and then you've lost the item and the gems. But when you reach Enchantment 5, have your current summoner cast Ritual of Returning, and he'll be almost safe - even a Greater Otherness can't kill a Starspawn in a single attack, and as soon as he takes damage the ritual will kick in. For even more safety, cast Ritual of Returning and use Returning in combat - as I'm not sure Ritual of Returning will work if you're succesfully Soul Slayed by a Vastness.

If you haven't researched Returning or Ritual of Returning yet, your first scripted spell should be Resist Magic if available. Then Quickness (if ?=water), Personal Luck, Body Ethereal, Ironskin (if ?=earth) or Barkskin (if ?=nature). That way you can survive the Vastnesses' Soul Slays (I once saw an unequipped, unescorted Starspawn kill a Vastness single-handedly), the Mind BLasts, and the trampling attacks of Othernesses (ethereal beings are hard to trample) while draining life from them.

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10% of all summonings will wipe out your summoning skill, leaving you with the minor summons resulting from low skill as you start again.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's 5% actually.

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To be honest, it seems like a lot of investment for limited gain. To get the really good summons, you have to keep someone alive and sane for a long time. If he gets knocked out around turn 30, you have to start again and will not get much useful for that stage of the game. You know that feeble mind is going to knock him out at some point, so it is hard to justify.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the Vastnesses, Greater Othernesses, Things that should not be, etc. are truly fearsome beasts, and can justify a lot of things. And you want that at no risk, just for an initial investment of 150 gold? BTW, a Starspawn priest's "half-life" is ~14 turns (at that point his chances to be feebleminded are 50%), so basically entering the gate costs you ~15 gold/turn (including upkeep). Not so expensive when you consider what you can get from it.

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Put another way, it is an expensive lottery ticket and I am not sure the prize is being paid!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think just the opposite. And these summons are so much fun!

[ January 13, 2004, 06:02: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Well, I got a Starspawn up to 35. By then he had summoned 3 vastnesses... I gift of reasoned all of them (a pretend game, no opponent pressure). One, I set to summoning... it got feebleminded. Still strong, though.

One was taken out by a horde of Ice Fiends.

One invaded Abysia, and got beaten back... then another... then another. The Last one, I empowered in water and nature so he could cast quickness, luck, regeneration, relief, and then attack... and what can I say, that new Divine Glyph is incredibly powerful. Of course, the Vastness doesn't work well against high-MR, weaponles enemies. But it does against indies - you can warp it anywhere on the map and win=) I made one my prophet, too. No item slots though...

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Hmm, interesting. Let me re-phrase. It is a lottery and I have yet to win! I have yet to see the really big guys, with the exception of an Horror which ate my units. Knowing that the big guys are out there makes me more willing to keep trying. The main reason I have been put off this is that I have not gotten anything decent after spending quite a lot of time on it.

The way you break down the cost makes the price seem lower. However, spending the 150 early on does carry a higher opportunity cost than the 15 a turn would suggest, so it is still pretty weighty.

My impression is that magic items are pretty important for survivability, as both my priest and the guards are frequently all eaten. Once I got a couple of decent items, it was just the guards providing a snack and buying some time. Pendant of Luck stood out as an easy to get early item which was useful. Effectively cutting damage in half is a big plus.

One other thing, the calculation of the half life of a summoner. I think it would be more than 15 turns. The reason is that early on, when the skill is low, you get less success. As such, not every turn counts towards possible insanity, my impression is only successful attempts result in insanity. I would guess that 15 successful summons probably take until turn 30. That is the mid or end point of most games, so you probably only get one of these guys, who gets any good, each time you play. However, if you did take that into account in your calculation, it would be great to know.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm really sorry for you. I've run a decent bunch of tests with R'lyeh to get a (very) rough estimate of the quality and frequency of summons, and I can say I'm rather satisfied with the results. Just checked the only R'lyeh test game that's left on my computer, it's turn 31 and I have 3 Formless Spawns, 4 Elder Things, 4 Othernesses, and 11(!) Greater Othernesses, and some smaller fry. That's about 1 Greater Otherness every 3 turns, not so bad I'd say. My summoner has a skill of 11 [edit: incorrect value], and he's the second one I'm using. The first one was an astral-2 priest who was scripted for Returning, unfortunately his brain was damaged before he had a chance to summon anything. I must add I have Misfortune +3 (with Order +3), so I'm rather sceptic when I read Posts claiming that Luck/Misfortone has an effect on Void summoning.

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I have yet to see the really big guys, with the exception of an Horror which ate my units. Knowing that the big guys are out there makes me more willing to keep trying. The main reason I have been put off this is that I have not gotten anything decent after spending quite a lot of time on it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What can I say? Either you're outrageously unlucky or I'm outrageously lucky, but then I was lucky in about a dozen different games, so I suspect the former.

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The way you break down the cost makes the price seem lower. However, spending the 150 early on does carry a higher opportunity cost than the 15 a turn would suggest, so it is still pretty weighty.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's true, but there's no other option, and the earlier you try the better the compounding effect on your summoner's skill.

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My impression is that magic items are pretty important for survivability, as both my priest and the guards are frequently all eaten. Once I got a couple of decent items, it was just the guards providing a snack and buying some time. Pendant of Luck stood out as an easy to get early item which was useful. Effectively cutting damage in half is a big plus.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I always beeline for Alteration 3 then Enchantment 1 to get the survival skills I need, unless my first priest comes with astral-2 (then I'll immediately get Thaumaturgy 1 for Returning instead). You don't need Pendants of Luck when all your priests can cast the spell, and it increases the overall cost of your summoner. With these levels of research your priests have the tools they need to survive. I've had naked priests fight several monstrosities bigger than them and survive (that's including Vastnesses and Greater Othernesses). The only things that cause me real problems are the Formless Spawns packs and the Greater Othernesses when they come in numbers. Things That Should Not Be are probably an even bigger threat, but I've seen only 2 so far and neither was hostile, so I've never seen them fight my priests.

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One other thing, the calculation of the half life of a summoner. I think it would be more than 15 turns. The reason is that early on, when the skill is low, you get less success. As such, not every turn counts towards possible insanity, my impression is only successful attempts result in insanity. I would guess that 15 successful summons probably take until turn 30. That is the mid or end point of most games, so you probably only get one of these guys, who gets any good, each time you play. However, if you did take that into account in your calculation, it would be great to know.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm no, I assumed this probability was just a flat 5% per attempt, but I might well be wrong, and you true. Although in the game I referred to above, I'm pretty sure my first summoner was insane before summoning anything, but I forgot check if his failed attempt earned him his first point in summoning skill.

[ January 13, 2004, 11:06: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

> Greater Otherness can't kill a Starspawn in a
> single attack, and as soon as he takes damage the
> ritual will kick in

I had a starspawn get attacked quite early by a horror: flying, 4 armor-negating attacks with no mr save... nasty! Would ritual of returning have helped? The priest died on the first combat round, but probably survived one or two of the four attacks. the ritual would have to take effect somewhere. Body guards would probably have helped, and maybe a lucky amulet.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe RoR kicks in as soon as you take 1 point of damage, unless that very attack kills you, so in your case the Starspawn should have survived. With the spell Returning, you'd be totally safe - unless you got insanity while attracting that Horror.

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the ritual would have to take effect somewhere. Body guards would probably have helped, and maybe a lucky amulet.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If, like I suggest, your Starspawn's first move is to cast Resist Magic, then yes, in that case bodyguards and a Luck pendant would have definitely helped him to survive for a couple more rounds. But I doubt the final outcome would be any different.

BTW, do you guys often see Horrors? I'd say they're even rarer than Vastnesses in my own tests: got 5 Vastnesses (1 hostile), and only 2 Horrors so far.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So if you capture and conquer Ryleh... don't be using the gate??
That's too bad... if that's the case.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

I set an Illithid Soldier and 4 assorted summons to guard my Starspawn (often a Greater Otherness and a few immobile or aquatic things), and scripted him to cast "Control", and the only horror that attacked got controlled. Unfortunately, I didn't get to keep him=(

I suggest giving them a Rune Smasher or other penetration aid, a luck item, and an antimagic amulet.

As for the cost: It is only 5 gold per turn... minimal. 150/15/2 (/2 for as priestly starspawns are sacred) = 5. And all the summons are upkeep-free.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, that was a brilliant idea! I'm ashamed I didn't think about it myself! Too bad it doesn't work.

[Edit: didn't notice: "Horror". Hmmm, maybe it works with the regular summon? Question: what happens when you try to Control or Charm a Vastness if the Blood Vengeance kicks in - do you get charmed yourself? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ]

I'd stick to Ritual of Returning + Returning anyway. It's the safer way to keep your summoner alive, and there's no reason to fight without purpose.

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As for the cost: It is only 5 gold per turn... minimal. 150/15/2 (/2 for as priestly starspawns are sacred) = 5. And all the summons are upkeep-free.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You forget the initial investment. If, as I suspect, each attempt to summon incur a 5% chance to become insame, then you can expect a Starspawn priest to Last for ~14 turns, and therefore a turn spent at the Gate (note: not a summon) "costs" you 150/14 + 5 ~ 15.7 gold.

[ January 13, 2004, 17:56: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

A Horror with four attacks? Hm. A Doom Horror gets four attacks, mostly if not entirely armor-negating, including an instant-death attack ("Consume Soul"). Ritual of Returning might help if you survive the Astral Claw, Soul Leech or Life Drain attacks, 'tho.
(Divine Glyph = ?)

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Use both if you can. Ritual of Returning (ritual) and Returning (battle spell).

If you are attacked by a summon or an Horror, you get to move first, and casting Returning as your first spell is 100% safe. And the ritual will remain active. Cost: 2 pearls.

If you're attacked and get insane, you won't get a chance to cast Returning, but the ritual may save you. An insane priest is still useful for his Mind BLast, and if he had a high summoning skill you can always cure him and reuse him later. Cost: 3 pearls.

There's still a chance you get insane and insta-killed by a Vastness casting Soul Slay, but nothing is absolutely safe in Dominions - and that's a good thing IMO. Cost: 5 pearls and a Starspawn.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Ritual of Returning. Cost: 3 pearls.

Not getting your priest with high summoning skill killed. Priceless ...


(Sorry, couldn't resist.) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, if you priest lost his mind with 20+ in summoning, maybe you've got a good reason to start a war with your Arco neighbor. Such a good summoner might well be worth 40 nature gems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(Well, I don't really know, my best score was certainly less than 15).

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

So if you capture and conquer Ryleh... don't be using the gate??

hopefully not.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Well, somebody should try it at some point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
There is at least one non-Void Gate site which also allows Void Summons. I've no idea whether or not Starspawn priests get an advantage when using that. R'lyeh with *two* Void Summoning attempts per turn might be pretty nasty.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My current game:

Order+3, Luck+2. Turn 17. Just got a Vastness (!) with my skill-9 (now 10) SS priest. I also have gotten 3 Things from the Void, 3 Formless Spawns, 9 Othernesses, and 3 Greater Othernesses (one of which attacked). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

At least for me, the Luck seems to be making a difference ...

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My current game:

Order+3, Luck+2. Turn 17. Just got a Vastness (!) with my skill-9 (now 10) SS priest. I also have gotten 3 Things from the Void, 3 Formless Spawns, 9 Othernesses, and 3 Greater Othernesses (one of which attacked). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

At least for me, the Luck seems to be making a difference ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've also tried Luck+3 summoning OFC, and I can't see much of a difference. And I got a Vastness in the first 20 turns too, with Misfortune+3.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

I am guessing I have just been very unlucky. Turn 37, skill at 11, I have gotten my first Otherness. It is pretty cool, but not that cool for all the work. I started again Last night after reading everything and took Fortune +3. I do not think it effects summoning. Speaking of which, I have also received zero national heroes, which I though was next to impossible after so many turns with such a high fortune value.

Starting to look like I am just unlucky, no matter how I tip the fortune scales!

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

Staying in the water researching/summoning while the land AIs kill each other can be fun...

Using the hero Cthugul the stargazer, with ritual of returning & returning. Turn 84, 21 skill, about 14 great otherness, but no vastness. Misfortune +1. A few priests that I used before I got the hero have gone insane, but no insanity on this hero yet.

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep lots of fun but it might be getting harder to do. Apparently there is a 3rd water nation in the works. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Stop the Insanity!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As you can see from my earlier post, you're just unlucky. In addition to what I said in that post, I got a hero on turn 4. Your run of lousy luck is truly noteworthy. Look on the bright side: you'll have quite a challenge being so "crippled". I do hope for your sake you are playing AIs and not humans ...