Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

Hi all!
I have just encountered two species. First they proposed at trade allíance but now several turns later both proposing a trade & research alliance. My spies have given me information about their current research achievements..and they haven't come as far as my own empire.

So my question is..what to answer ? I think i say NO...really. But what will the result ? war perhaps?

Im new at this game...and these are the first encounters for me. They are Cue Cappa and Toltayan.



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"what horror, what horror............"

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

For me, I always play "bloodthirsy" race so any treaties lower my population happines. However, if your race is peaceful and you accept the treaties, your happiness will go up. If your neutral ANYTHING will lower their happines (Sidenote: IMO Neutral is a harder setting due to this fact) whether it be treaties, wars, or what have you. Personally, I never accept treaties unless I have no other choice (READ getting my butt kicked).

OTOH, you can trade for technologies and stuff without having any treaties. I have done that in the past IE. trade Rock tech for Gas tech, etc.

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

Besides the diplomatic mood of the other races being affected, consider the happiness effect on your own race. If your race is Neutral or Bloodthirsty, upgrading the treaty will cost you additional happiness points. If you are Peaceful, it will help you rather than hurt you.

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

The trade and research treaty does not give you specific technology from your partners, but research points. So even if they are far behind you in technology you might get a profit.
To refuse the treaty will certainly increase their anger (as does your espionnage by the way), so be careful, you might very well end up in war with both of them.
Good luck.

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Viking:
Hi all!
I have just encountered two species. First they proposed at trade allíance but now several turns later both proposing a trade & research alliance. My spies have given me information about their current research achievements..and they haven't come as far as my own empire.

So my question is..what to answer ? I think i say NO...really. But what will the result ? war perhaps?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you click on the '?' icon, it has an option to bring up the HTML manual. The manual has some pretty useful information on treaties.

With a trade alliance, you get a resource bonus equivalent to 1% of the other empire's resource production. This number can climb as high as 20% at the rate of 1% per turn. A research alliance means that you also get a similar percentage of their research production. I generally say 'yes' to requests like this because it keeps them happy. The next level treaty is Military Alliance. This lets them resupply at your resupply depots. I like to avoid these because I don't want them putting down colonies in the middle of my empire. The Last treaty is Partnership. At this level, both empires trade star charts and enemy ship/unit designs. I think you also get a percentage of their intel production at Partnership.

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

I see, thats interesting. But.....do i have to share my tech with these species ? I'm kinda greedy and doesn't want to share anything with anybody =) So thats probably why i say no.... I have been thinking...if they get angry, let them get angry...them fools doesn't have Cruisers and Shields III and other valuable tools of destruction LIKE I DO..

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Viking:
I see, thats interesting. But.....do i have to share my tech with these species? I'm kinda greedy and doesn't want to share anything with anybody =) So thats probably why i say no.... I have been thinking...if they get angry, let them get angry...them fools doesn't have Cruisers and Shields III and other valuable tools of destruction LIKE I DO..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends on what sort of game you like to play. If you want to slug it out with everyone, all the time, then by allmeans refuse the treaties and start bLasting any colonies you come across. You'll have a war soon enough. But sometimes it might take a little finesse to win the game. Hopefully, as the AI continues to improve it will take finesse more and more frequently. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif So you MIGHT want to accept a treaty with one or the other to keep them happy while you deal with the non-ally. When you've won your first war you can start probing your "ally's" defenses. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif Admittedly, you will be giving them more research points than they give you, but if you are already well ahead this will not let them catch up. The maximum benefit from a treaty is only 20 percent of your total. Finally, if you don't want to accept any higher level treaties you don't have to use the REFUSE option on the diplomacy menu. You can just pass over the treaty offers in silence and not have nearly as bad a reaction from the AI.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 01 February 2001).]

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

and don't forget that early wars can be rather expensive in the long run, since some of the maintenance required for a fleet capable of a decent offensive could have been spent expanding via more colonies. start fighting too early and you might get bogged down in a war while somebody on the other side of the quadrant's still building up. it may be more in your interest to get those two busy fighting each other. the communications mimic intel op is the most direct way to do this, but i suspect you can achieve the same result by doing things like trading for ships in their space, and then giving/trading ships to the other party so that they have ships / colonies in each other's space, which may perhaps cause mutual anger.

Also, if you're running short of a resource type but rich in another, you may be able to make some useful trades in that way... especially for minerals, which are disproportionately valuable (almost everything takes minerals to build, and some things take *only* minerals to build).

Trade with them (some tech trades are safe if they're not in a position to exploit them well... for instance, if you research shield-piercing weapons, offering them low levels of shielding is an option. If you use many fighters for defense, which can't be hit by missiles, you might want to trade missile tech. And so forth, as long as you have the patience (the AI doesn't seem to like tech trades that much -- often rejecting even pretty good offers without a counter-offer).

There are numerous ways to temporize while you expand, and encouraging them towards pointless squabbles with each other, and tossing the occasional trinket in their direction.

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Viking:
I see, thats interesting. But.....do i have to share my tech with these species ? I'm kinda greedy and doesn't want to share anything with anybody =) So thats probably why i say no.... I have been thinking...if they get angry, let them get angry...them fools doesn't have Cruisers and Shields III and other valuable tools of destruction LIKE I DO..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

The research treaty doesn't mean that you trade tech levels. It just means that if your colonies produce 50,000 research points per turn that the empires with a research treaty will get 1%, 2% up to 20% of your research points. BTW, these points aren't lost to you. It's just that the other empire gets the benefit of them as well.

IMHO, if you are playing a reasonably good gam, even with 20% of your total, even the #2 empire behind you is still going to be *WAY* behind you in research. As Baron Munchausen said, best to strive for peace with all your neighbors even if it means you give them a small research boost.

Sorry for not making it more clear that you don't have to give other empires tech levels as part of the research treaty.

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taqwus:
but i suspect you can achieve the same result by doing things like trading for ships in their space, and then giving/trading ships to the other party so that they have ships / colonies in each other's space, which may perhaps cause mutual anger.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude! You are *EVIL*. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

This is one tactic I never thought of trying. But it is pure genius!

(The rest of your post was pure gold as well. But this one in particular.)

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

One problem I have is that when I make treaties, the F@#)#@$ computer can then send ships through my guarded warp ports, in preparation for an attack (I once had a military alliance parter do that).

As a result, I have now adopted a policy of no treaties except with neutral empires, since neutral empires won't come marching through my warp points, colonizing MY planets, etc etc etc.

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

The default diplomacy files for all default ai races is extremely unfinished. I've made a mod that at least makes the ai races act like their description. When I was creating my mod, I've noticed that MM just made all the default races act the same way. Be aggressive and break treaties. This method makes sense for some races, but the more peaceful races with descriptions that state that they are peaceful does not make sense at all. I can only hope that the patch that comes out after the upcoming one will definitely deal with this.

Re: Diplomatic proposal...what to answer ?
 

I'm still working out how to use diplomacy well, but I have learned a few things.

Like many strategy games, in SE4 it only really makes sense to trade with empires that are much smaller than you are. If somebody else is equal to you or more powerful, you don't want to give them an additional economic or research bonus.

Also, as I learned in my first game, you don't want to trade with somebody you are eventually going to fight. When my neighbor cancelled the treaty and attacked me I lost a huge chunk of my budget, and my navy just evaporated on the way to the front because I couldn't pay the maintenance costs. Ouch!

On the other hand, if you make a trade treaty with somebody you can get a lot of useful information about him from the "comparisons" button on the race information screens. You could always break the treaty again, assuming you can afford the happiness effects.

If you're worried about the trading partner wandering around your systems simply mine your border warp points. Strangely enough, the AI does not hold it against you if its ships are lost to your mines in peacetime.