Does the AI use intel very well?
 

Do you think the AI uses intel to its maximum effect? Below is a list of stuff that happened to me during my Last game when one empire was spending 200,000 intel points per turn against my 40,000 defensive intel points:

They successfully damaged several planet's conditions, did food contamination, made colonies unhappy. They stole a couple of battle cruisers inside my system--one of which had stellar manipulation components which had just been built. They disrupted research projects that had been going for 5 turns. The worst one they did was to mess with a 20% trade treaty that was bringing in 100,000 minerals per turn. That one stung a little bit. They also cost ships supplies or messed up the orders of ships.

My opinion is that once your empire grows to a certain size, you aren't going to feel the effects of these minor intel projects that strongly. But what would have happened to me if the AI had been spending all its points on Puppet Political Parties? With 200,000 intel points, couldn't the EA have grabbed hold of a couple of my planets every turn?

Also, any thoughts from those of you who have used intel yourself to bring the AI to its knees... rdouglas? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

I definitely don't think the Ai uses intel very well (just like many other areas). I don't think that the AI altering the orders of one of my transports or colony ships for 1 turn hurts me a bit, large or small. I've never even had a Crew Insurrection against me. However, if the AI WAS intelling PPP's or Crew Insurrection, I definitely would be spending a much larger portion of my intel points towards Counter Intel.

Unfortunately, the AI does not... If it did, there would be far more discussions about the importance of Intel. Now as it stands, many people feel Intel is a waste.

Raynor, are you using any specific Mods, 'cause I'd love to get into a heavy Intel Battle with an AI... Yes, as it stands now, I CAN bring down any AI I've been up against with Intel operations after about 100 turns. Of course, I'm usually producing 250 - 300,000 Intel points....

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Raynor, are you using any specific Mods, 'cause I'd love to get into a heavy Intel Battle with an AI... Yes, as it stands now, I CAN bring down any AI I've been up against with Intel operations after about 100 turns. Of course, I'm usually producing 250 - 300,000 Intel points....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I had bonus turned on, probably. Here are the numbers I think that gives:

Low Bonus: 2x AI research and 2x intel
Med Bonus: 3x AI research and 3x intel
High Bonus: 5x AI research and 5x intel

The main trouble came from Mephisto's Earth Alliance which was producing 40,000 intel points per turn but spending 200,000.

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
Yes, as it stands now, I CAN bring down any AI I've been up against with Intel operations after about 100 turns. Of course, I'm usually producing 250 - 300,000 Intel points....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! Doesn't' that massive investment in intel put you behind on research?

Next time you load up a game, could you please check and see how many enemy planets you can PPP away from him per year? I would be really interested in hearing the results of a very different way of playing the game. It sounds like you are having some serious fun with intel!

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rdouglass:
I definitely don't think the Ai uses intel very well (just like many other areas). I don't think that the AI altering the orders of one of my transports or colony ships for 1 turn hurts me a bit, large or small<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once, the AI altered the orders of a ship, and the ship happened to be in one of my main battle fleets. The fleet moved a good 5-6 hexes out of position, and on the subsequent AI turns a fleet came in through the now unguarded warp point and bLasted one of my planets.

For the most part order changes are just a nuissance, but on occassion the AI gets lucky and really messes things up.

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

Raynor, yes it does require a big investment in intel facilities. However, there are many areas that I don't have to research BECAUSE of my intel strategies. For instance, I never research propulsion 'cause I Crew Insurrect an AI ship, get it to a "mobile" Ship Yard (or get the SY to it) and analyse the ship. That gives me the techs (alas in 1 tech level increments). Same goes for Colony techs, etc. I usually just research my racial techs (usually organic - I LOVE the Enveloping Acid Globules), Shields, Stellar Manip, Intel, Ship Construction, Point defense, and Stellar Harnessing. Everything else I steal. Sure does reduce the amount of research facilities I need.

As to the PPP thing, when I'm cranking out intel points, I try to PPP 1 planet every other turn, 1 ship to Crew Insurrection per turn, and the rest to various Counter Intel. Crew Insurrect seems to work every time while as PPP works about 75% of the time.

I also play huge galaxy, low tech games so it gives me a few turns to get my intel act together before I encounter another AI. The only downfall is if I meet an AI early. Then I have to do some scrambling - usually resort to mines or missles - and go heavy on the defense.

Yes, it does definitely put a cool twist on the game. IMO that (Intel) is a HUGE improvement over SE3. You should try that strategy once and see how you like it.

Man, I wish I had MORE TIME to play....

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

As I posted in my Darlok readme.txt-

"(2) The second biggest advantage the Darlok had was their Intel capability. Although I have given them a considerable Intel boost via racial %, the text files currently do not let you prioritize the Intel projects by a certain race. This leads to many projects. Most races have between 8-12 projects outstanding at a time with very long completions times. My suggested fixed was to have a file similar to the research file where races can have a priority order and % operating at a time (again similar to the research file). This would accomplish the following: (a) certain races could have aggressive, neutral or defensive projects depending one their demeanor and AI_State and (b) it would eliminate the current problem of inefficient use of Intel Points for projects which result in information the AI will never use (i.e. census or designs)."

Anyway, I really hope an "Intel" file (as I described above) is created for the races. I know, not until the bugs are fixed - but hopefully prior to SE5.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 01 February 2001).]

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

Have you been running counterintelligence operations? Like at least four to six? Or am I just paranoid?

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Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sinapus:
Have you been running counterintelligence operations? Like at least four to six? Or am I just paranoid?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once I encounter another race, I always run at least 2 Counter Intel's. Yup, I'm paranoid too.

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

I never thought of doing Crew Insurrection to steal enemy ships for tech. That's a smart idea.

Alas... I am still so clueless when it comes to intel. I *finally* in my Last game decided that it might be better to have multiple counter-intel projects running simultaneously instead of just one at a time that got all my points and finished earlier. I guess everyone has decided it's better to run several at one time?

I really, really, really don't understand how counter-intel works...

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

I am presently in a game with max difficulty and max bonus and the AI intel is a real pain. They do not get through every turn but even with multiple level 3 counterintelligence they occasionally get through and I get hit with 8 or 9 things in the same turn. I have had ships stolen and one planet go over to the enemy.

On the flip side my attempts at crew revolt and PPP I am only successful 25% of the time. Against several AI I am almost never successful. I think the AI I am successful against is being pounded by the other two as well.

By the way when a fleet takes of I think what happens is when the AI happens to change the orders of the fleet leader your fleet takes of for other places. I have had individual ships get a change of orders but not affect the fleet. On the other hand I have had fleets guarding the warp holes take off on me. And it was the fleet leader who changed his mind.

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

The way I understand intel and counter-intel is this: Your intel points for intelligence operation gets negated by any counter-intel points spent by the target for that level.

For instance, Player A has 100,000 points of intel and has 4 projects running. Project 1 has 25,000 points towards Crew Insurrection (an Intel Level II project) of player B, Project 2 is Order Snafu (Intel Level I) toward player C for 25,000 points, Project 3 & 4 are both 25,000 points toward Counter-Intel II.

Player B has 60,000 points and uses them for 2 Projects: 30,000 toward Crew Insuurect toward Player A, and 30,000 in Counter Intel II.

Player C has 60,000 points and 3 projects: 20,000 toward Order Snafu on Player A; 20,000 toward Counter-Intel I, and 20,000 toward Counter-Intel II.

Now here's where the confusion usually begins:

Player A Project 1 NEVER is sucessful 'cause Player B puts 30,000 toward Counter-Intel II: 25,000 - 30,000 = -5,000.

Player A Project 2 is sucessful (I think at a reduced percentage) since 25,000 - 20,000 = 5,000. Remember Player C had 20,000 toward Counter Intel II.

Player B Project 1 Works at a reduced percentage: 30,000 (from B) - 25,000 (A CI II)= 5,000.

Player C Project 1 almost ALWAYS sucessful since Player A has NO Counter Intel I projects.

I'm sure I missed some details...maybe others can fill in the blanks and / or correct me.

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

Thanks, rdouglas!

I think my main question concerns the efficacy of having multiple counter-intel projects going at once vs. just one big one.

It sounds like most folks think you are better off having 12 counter-intel projects going at once instead of just one big one?

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

Actually each counter intell project will only work against one intell project. Even though it looks like it takes a lot of points to run a counter intell project as soon as you have put enough points into it to counter that first intell project it stops and gives you a message that it stopped that project. That is why you need more than one counter intell project running at once. Your project could look like it will take 4 or 5 turns to complete but all of a sudden it will be over once it counters an opponents project and you are left without counter intell. So if multiple projects are run against you then you have to run multiple counter intell. You will know when you need it especially on those turns that 5 or 6 projects go off against you all at once. The AI seems to run a lot of projects simultaniously so a lot can hit you at once. The worst is when you have 3 or more AI targeting you at once with intell (mega-evil time again).

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tomgs:
Actually each counter intell project will only work against one intell project. Even though it looks like it takes a lot of points to run a counter intell project as soon as you have put enough points into it to counter that first intell project it stops and gives you a message that it stopped that project. That is why you need more than one counter intell project running at once. Your project could look like it will take 4 or 5 turns to complete but all of a sudden it will be over once it counters an opponents project and you are left without counter intell. So if multiple projects are run against you then you have to run multiple counter intell. You will know when you need it especially on those turns that 5 or 6 projects go off against you all at once. The AI seems to run a lot of projects simultaniously so a lot can hit you at once. The worst is when you have 3 or more AI targeting you at once with intell (mega-evil time again). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for clarifying. I did take that into account in my explaination (hence the 2 C-Intel projects), but was not at all clear about it. I need to remember to read my Posts from a different perspective...but, yes, you are exactly right. However, I think the key is if the Intel Project is putting more points per turn than the Counter Intel (ON A 1 TO 1 BASIS - project for project), then it will succeed with respect to percentages. If the opposite is true, C-Intel more than Intel per turn, then it will fail.

Yeah, and when I'm MEE, I usually have 8 Counter Intel projects running at the same time. However, 1 or 2 always slip thru. I think on average, the AI has at least 3 offensive Intel porjects runnung against you when at war. Question: Is there anyway to Mod this???

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

BTW - there's a setting in "settings.txt" that implies there's a bonus for counter-intel points. Something like 100 counter-intel points will negate 125 intel points. Don't know if it's really working or not.

Also, I've noticed that not all projects have an effect. I've gotten a few Messages about ship bombs damaging a particular ship, but I can't find any damage on the ship that got bombed. I'd send it to MM, but I'm kinda happy about not finding damage http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif .

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

That is because the damage is not high enough to destroy that particular component.

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

Thanks daynarr - that's kinda what I expected; although it must be a pretty low-powered ship bomb, considering the components on the ships it was supposed to damage (I think the biggest component was 50kT).

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

Hmm, I am not sure, but I think that intel operation does 80 points of damage. Perhaps the shields took the damage.

Re: Does the AI use intel very well?
 

It has been my opinion that it varies upon use. Sometimes it does utalize the intel very well, while other times, it does not.



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