Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

See topic.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

It sure helps.

You can alternatively have a neutral/negative scale & play very agressively.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

LOL, Saxon...I know how you feel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I have come to the conclusion that a neutral growth scale is useful for nations with powerful military units. Because it takes a massive army to invade them...and that massive army will start to starve, reducing its morale and possibly giving it diseases.

To keep my own troops from starving, I use nature forges like endless bags of wine. Nature is very easy to get into, even for nations that don't start with it due to the massive number of druid and jade sorceress sites.

The percentage your population grows is somewhat small. But I agree that it would come in handy in a long game.

I'm quite new myself...these are just some thoughts. My next project: Make iron faith ulm work. I think I may have figured it out, but I'm not sure.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ice and fire races do not get decreased income from their ideal temperature. They only get their maximum income when the temperature is at the ideal point.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

I find a strong growth scale helpful but not neccisary in a long game. Basicly, in later game their are a lot of ways to raise money (gift of nature's bounty, direct conVersion of gem to cash, etc.). Don't forget that their are other economies than money. You can use blood summons (once again growth helps, but is not required) for units, magic summons, well equiped hoards of leaders, lots of combos work.

I tend to like growth, high province defences with a couple of nodal armies for conquest and destruction of invading armies, but don't get locked into the idea that their is one optimum way to play. Also, sometimes your strategy can change by finding a really cool site early in the game that makes other strategies attractive.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good scales are always useful but it's always a matter of trade off.

I think that each tick on growth give 0.2% of population increase - right? If so, even at Growth -3, your population decrease is only 26% after 50 turns, quite a long time in an normal MP game. The loss is significant but not too devastating, especially since you get 120 nation points out of it. The income bonus from Growth scale is actually more significant than the population death.

You can do well enough with Growth 0 in most cases, and save the points for something else.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

Growth +3 will give you a significant income boost in a long game all other things being usefull, but it's slow enough that spending those 120 points on something usefull early is probably at least as good.

Growth +3 is certainly no where near as mandatory as Order +3 and Misfortune +3, which is both more powerfull and cheaper.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

My friends the undead are not so fond of this one, so they will not need growth.

Can any other nation get away with poor growth? What about the Ice and Fire races, can they try to make the entire world poor and get away with the reduced income themselves? Sometimes I wish I did not have a job, I lose so much valuable playing time! I want to try some things.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never take misfortune 3 if I don't absolutely have to, as I don't want the really bad events to have any chance of happening. The most destructive ones only happen at misfortune 3, so I simply remove the possibility altogether by never going over 2.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What are those? I certainly get hit by a bunch of nasty effects with lucky 3...

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are ones that can cause the loss of a quarter of the population in one turn and so on.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are ones that can cause the loss of a quarter of the population in one turn and so on. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I seem to have had my fair share of these playing turmoil luck races with luck at +3. The problem might be that your dominion spreads unevenly and the turmoil scale produces alot of catastrophic events. On the other hand playing order3, misfortune3 has seemed the way to go for avoiding bad events. The problem is you don't get your national hero's. I do enjoy getting hero's with luck races.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

The key to long games is death3. Abysia doesn't get supply problems from death so Abysia death3 is a good choice for along game.

I have always found the biggest problem with a long PBEM game is how long they go. If you are doing well you reach a terrifying point when you realise you are incapable of getting your turn in on time without:

a) lose your job, partner and access to the kids.
b) play like a moron and having to manage a life while the game slowly falls to bits.
c) ask for an extention in the time between turns.

After trying c) a couple of times someone goes on holiday. when they get back 15 days later you can just remember enough to get your turn done but it seems someone else lost track and by the time their move is in its been over 4 weeks between turns and you are faced with horror of having trying an make sense of what was going on in your huge empire with all its myriads of armies, mages, assasins and spys. Basically its a choice of a) or b) or the new c) try and persuade everyone the game is a dead duck and its time to move on.

So this should make it blindingly obvious ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )why the best approach to pop management in a long game is death3 - kill the buggers! All of them! Expand like a berserk monstrosity and pummel your opponents into submistion before micro-management tedium kills the fun.

A good game is quick game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Keir

[ December 17, 2003, 04:07: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't use this combo. I'll see how bad I'll do in my game.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't use this combo. I'll see how bad I'll do in my game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious to hear the outcome, but there are so many other factors involved in multiplayer (e.g. opponent skill, faction mathup, multiplayer dynamics, etc.) that it will be difficult to tell what effect anyone particular thing has had on how well you do, especially since you can't easily try the same scenario with a different Pretender.

IMHO the relative benefits of scales are much more easily compared in single player games, where you can more carefully control the environment.

For me it was as simple as comparing Order 3 + Misfortune 3 Pangaea, vs. the same Pretender with Turmoil 3 + Luck 3. This should be biased towards T+L, as Pangaea gets extra beneft from both, but for my test O+M was far more effective.

L+T in my experience can keep up with O+M, but only if you get extraordinarily lucky.

[ December 17, 2003, 05:28: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never take misfortune 3 if I don't absolutely have to, as I don't want the really bad events to have any chance of happening. The most destructive ones only happen at misfortune 3, so I simply remove the possibility altogether by never going over 2. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suggest you make some tests and see if it is as unbearable as you think. Order 3 luck -3 give you only 5% chance a turn of getting an event.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are ones that can cause the loss of a quarter of the population in one turn and so on. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you mean rain, then no, you get those with luck 3, and a lot. If you mean restlessness, then no again, you can get those even with luck 3. If you talking about plagues and such, then no (but they are dependent on your death scale).

I can't say one single event I haven't seen in both luck 3 and unluck 3 dominion (but a lot are dependent on your other scales).

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

I can tell you why a random event for an increase of population is plain unrealistic.

First of all, if there was an increase in population, it would mean there was more babies born this month than usual. That's completely unrealistic. More population = more population. There cannot be a random even for population growth. Even if there was a sudden increase of population, do you really think 1-month old babies can pay tax?

The only realistic event for population growth is immigration.

Immigration can be good or bad. Population increases or decreases in a province you own while decreasing or increasing in a province you do not own.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The 1500 gold event is for luck 3 provinces only for example.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you'd think that, wouldn't you? But in fact, the only migration-related event is emigration, population decreases in a province you own and doesn't show up anywhere else in the world.

Immigration - either from someone else's provinces or from nowhere - would be nice, but it never actually happens.

Besides, when you talk about what events would be "realistic" you forget that Dom II is a fantasy game... there's no reason you couldn't throw a handful of teeth on the ground and have citizens spring up from it (to bend a mythological example). Or every woman in the province gives birth to twins, or something fantastic like that.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't use this combo. I'll see how bad I'll do in my game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious to hear the outcome, but there are so many other factors involved in multiplayer (e.g. opponent skill, faction mathup, multiplayer dynamics, etc.) that it will be difficult to tell what effect anyone particular thing has had on how well you do, especially since you can't easily try the same scenario with a different Pretender.

IMHO the relative benefits of scales are much more easily compared in single player games, where you can more carefully control the environment.

For me it was as simple as comparing Order 3 + Misfortune 3 Pangaea, vs. the same Pretender with Turmoil 3 + Luck 3. This should be biased towards T+L, as Pangaea gets extra beneft from both, but for my test O+M was far more effective.

L+T in my experience can keep up with O+M, but only if you get extraordinarily lucky. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't like negative scales in general. So, I don't usually go with Turmoil and it's more a choice of O-0/L+3 or O+3/L-0. I think the rational choice should be the order+3.

But, I like the randomness of luck events - just love feeling lucky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . When fancy striked me or when the nation doesn't need too much gold, I would go with Luck+3. Sometimes, a random animist (got two as Tien Chi the other day http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) or air-mage could go a long way for your game. Not to mention a few lucky positioning of castles or temples...

Who knows? In Dom 1, I once got a "Ring of Sorcery" from a luck event! And I've heard of a story getting a "Soul Contract" from another player! These items worth more than the loss of a thousand gold income for non-astral or non-blood nation.

But, the bottom line remains: it's just a game. I don't mind playing against "conventional wisdom" for the fun of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The 1500 gold event is for luck 3 provinces only for example. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay, I should have said bad events http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Babies cannot pay tax. Lets say population starts paying tax when they are 20. 20 years is 240 turns. Not gunna happen.

Population growth through magical means IS realistic to Dominions standards. Every game is based on realism. There isn't one game in the world made totally off realism. There's not a book, game, movie, or ANYTHING without realism. There are standard rules in every fantasy and standard rules in every "non-realistic" thing.

[ December 17, 2003, 21:31: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Babies cannot pay tax. Lets say population starts paying tax when they are 20. 20 years is 240 turns. Not gunna happen.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mebbe, and I think 20 is an awfully high taxpayer age for a medievalish time-frame, but it'd be easy enough for the event to reflect something that happened in the past:

"Under the influence of the stars, fourteen years ago every woman in this province gave birth to twins."

Frankly, I like the other way better. You can imply either:

a) The effect is felt today from the event being reported.

-or-

b) There's some sort of 'baby tax' that parents pay.

The idea remains valid however you put it though.

~Aldin

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not so. I've had it happen - once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

The message read that a huge number of people had immigrated to the province. It was not a very populous province to start with, and it was hard to tell how many a "huge number" was. I'm guessing 25%.

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those are good ideas, although an event being recorded and then reported 14 years after... thats kinda.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Is growth scale must in a long game?
 

Should we really care about those things? This is only a game, after all. More cattle born would do for most nations, though.

And weren't there many plague-events, and the worst could only come up with negative luck? I can't find the thread where I read that, but I think IW-team said something like that somewhere in this forum.