RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

Request For Comment: (its an old internet thing)

Sneaking units dont get the useage that I think would be good. Nations with sneaking units such as Man and Pangaea tend to be on the "needs a boost" list. Im wondering if it would be too unbalancing if sneaking units could survive a retreat into unowned territory.

If its too much... maybe just if they hit independent territorys.

If its a good idea but alittle light.. maybe add surviving a rout?

Possibly this could be an added benefit of certain units. Or commanders only, not entire armys

[ December 16, 2003, 17:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

Sneaking units work very well for raiding, as after taking a province they can always sneak away, then strike again. It's very difficult to stop them. The only real defense is to guess where they're going to strike, and meet them there. If sneaking commanders could retreat freely, then you could never catch scouts, and patrolling would be essentially worthless against sneaking troops.

Man is one of the best nations, and hardly needs a boost. Pangaea is in the middle somewhere, and seems ok; fixing the order/misfortune inbalance would help them out enough, although I would be happy to see the non-hoplite satyrs be more usefull.

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

I rather like the chance-to-retreat option. Possibly a chance based on their Sneak level and general experience level to get away? Also possibly modified by the local defense and patrollers present in the province targetted to retreat into?

I think if it isn't automatic, that would keep it from being overpowering, and it makes a lot of sense for stealth units to "retreat into the shadows" if they are lucky. After all, hiding is what they do!

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The thing I like about that is that the farther they are from home, the more you hate to lose them. But the higher they are likely to be in level so your way gives them a chance.

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pangaea is one of the worst in my opinion. Getting any units with researching or magic casting is very expensive and ranged units are expensive.
The Dryads have only 3 research... I'm sure most players would trade the one nature magic for 2 more research.

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would make them nearly as good as Sages, and far better than most other mages, considering that they are sacred. The best way to use them is to take a magic scale or three.

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would make them nearly as good as Sages, and far better than most other mages, considering that they are sacred. The best way to use them is to take a magic scale or three. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Considering the kingdoms overall effectiveness during gameplay I would say that it would balance things for them.
Heck I can get witches from Machaka for 90 gold with 5 research plus they have 1 nature, 1 death and 1 fire !!
Much better deal than the 110 gold for the dryad... which has one nature.

[ December 18, 2003, 06:55: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

Yes the stealth is nice and the race can work somewhat against computer opponents. Yet from my multiplayer experience Pangaea is an easy target to feed on playing with or against Pangaea. Perhaps on a huge map with very few opponents they're effective.

[ December 18, 2003, 15:09: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont remember, are the witches stealth? IMHO the "use" of pangaea is to use its stealth. If you try to play default Pangy as a just another army with stealth being an interesting occassional use thing then yes its going to test out near the bottom.

As a sneak-across-the-map erupt-somewhere-else unit the dryad is very handy because it can construct everything. And provide a decent dominion push.

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

The auto-deaths on retreat are one of the very few things I don't particularly like about the game. It's a minor perfectionist gripe, but ideally, I'd like to see routed units not necessarily die even if they don't have an escape route, sometimes returning to friendly territory after a long time, or hiding out in enemy territory until rescued or caught.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are Machakan witches sacred? If not, then compare the Dryad at 55 gold for maintenance purposes. They then have more research per maintenance.

PvK

[ December 20, 2003, 00:21: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

None of the Machaka mages are sacred, only the Hunter Lord and Priests. Which makes using a Nature Bless effect slightly more attractive.

Dryads are the multipurpose of the Pangaea. I don't see Dryads sitting around studying.

[ December 20, 2003, 00:55: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pangaea can be quite effective with Dom2 but I havent seen alot of players use them well. For one thing, few seem to mention the effect of just moving Pan's thru evemy territory (automatic and safe attacks every round). Nor the effect of having multiple castle/lab/temples in scattered locations thru the map.

All I see are players who play it as though it was Ulm with unarmored troops. Although I will admit that they make a much better ally than a winning nation.

[ December 20, 2003, 01:04: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

Pangaea are a slow starter nation. Good for those who like to live and die by diplomacy. I would never discount a Pangaean nation unless the player of it didn't take advantage of their stealth and ability to have a free income of units.

Certainly not a 'powerhouse', but if you give them long enough; they can be very dangerous. Any nation that has standard Blood has a chance to go crazy on you if you don't keep them on lockdown.

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Dryads are also Sacred, Holy 3, stealthy, Awe +2, +10 leadership, and +3 magic resistance.

Holy 3 by itself is pretty expensive, (e.g. Voice of the Lord), and the other abilites combine to make Dryads much more survivable and utilitarian than Witch Doctors. Sacred means that in the long run Dryad's are actually the more effecient researchers (especially w/ a magic scale); not bad considering that Witch Doctors are one of the better researchers.

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arrange for your pretender to have 4magic in 3 or 4 areas and that can stack pretty well.

Pangaea also has other blessable and able to cast bless units. The white centaurs commanders might be expensive as just longbows but they have good survivability, can cast bless as first action, and as leaders get more options for scripting. With the right choices of bless bonuses it can be quite a unit.

[ December 20, 2003, 14:22: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

[Thread hijacked]
I've personally been toying with the idea of getting the Water 9 (quickness) blessing for Pan. Centaur Hierophants come with a rather decent precision and would be a real force with things like bow of war (heck, who needs longbow centaurs anyway :PP, actually I usually try to recruit some indep longbows instead of using centaur longbows even though they're rather good). Dryads and White Centaurs (they already got berserk and the defence boost is really major for them since it's high to begin with - just look at the probabilities) would also benefit vastly from this.
While it's true that Pan was rather weak in Dom1 I still managed to win couple o' games with it (okay, mostly thanks to hordes of Ice Devils). I haven't received my full Version yet so I can't really comment the effectiveness of current Pan stealth troops but overall it seems that the nation has received a slight boost (even though the troops aren't as heavily armoured as before) especially magic wise as the previously nearly useless Earth magic is now a force to be reckoned with. Also, Nature magic got a huge boost in Dom2 (actually I think that sorcery [astral, death, nature] paths are now clearly superior to elemental magic).

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

Why do you think so? I am not against your opinion, since I haven't got the full game either, but I always thought elemental spells as the number one in battle and sorcery spells better outside of it. Not including Master Enslave and other horrors...

Re: RFC sneaking retreat must die?
 

I'm basing my opinion on the fact that all sorcery picks got nice battlefield (killing) spells in Dom2. In addition to killy battlefield spells they also got nice support spells like Mass Protection/Regeneration, Relief and so on (not taking the time to list all the good stuff).

Astral: Mind Burn, Soul Slay, Astral fires (ouch), Star Fires (even though nerfed), Stellar Cascades, Nether Bolt/Darts (1astral,1death)
Death: Shadow Bolt/Ball (double ouch), Disintegration
Nature: Breath of Dragon, Poison Cloud, Sleep Cloud, Stream of Life, (Tangle Vines/Wild Growth even though they don't technically kill anything)

In other words, all sorcery paths got nice battlefield spells but are quite a bit more powerful than the elemental stuff outside battle. Nature and Death got some nice thingies in Conjuration and Enchantment while Astral guys generally like to research Thaumaturgy. Sure elemental magic got summons and such but for example Fire magic isn't all that hot (pardon the pun) outside battle.

EDIT: Totally forgot Blood http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . Okay, Blood doesn't have too many but things like Hellfire, Harm or Hellbind Heart can have some battlefield applications (to tell you the truth I've only used Hellbind Heart regularly). Sadly with the reduced blood slave income (no more scout/priest hordes) I can't see people using too many Blood battlefield spells in Dom2.

[ December 21, 2003, 03:44: Message edited by: Windreaper ]