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Iron Faith Ulm
I would love to know the strategies others have used with Ulm Iron Faith as it is my next project.
My pretender is a lich with earth-4, death-4, air-4, and fire-4. Order 3, misfortune 3. (Yes...I like this combination though I know some of you don't.) Growth 0, Productivity 2, Drain 3. Dominion 4. I wanted a castle but could only afford a fortress. My thoughts: I need to find fire gems for those research lanterns, and that might not happen at fire-1 for my default inquisitors. I was hesitant in taking the drain dominion but found that it helped produce points and...well...since I stink at magic...it would be nice if everyone else got extra fatigue while invading me. Having a lich will let my pretender participate in combat virtually risk-free. I might need him since I otherwise don't really have a mage I can count on. With 4 earth, I'm immune to that air spell that sucks you into enemy domain to be killed. The magic picks are strong enough to have bless effects, which I thought would be useful to have since you have bless units with iron faith. They are based around my need for research (finding death and fire gems for skull mentors and those research lanterns) and having some offensive magic... I think I can get hyperaccurate blade wind (air for eyes of aiming) and earth is necessary since my inquisitors are earth-1. I can get one of them to the point of making earth boots by making the first pair with my pretender and then empowering an inquisitor to earth-2. Wearing the boots made by my pretender, he can forge more. I'd love to know what other folks have done to make Iron Faith Ulm work. And how they dealt with the absence of decent researchers and extremely low magic skills. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
I have a couple of questions on your design decisions.
1.) Do you only fight in your domain with your lich? Since you have such a low initial dominion (4) it will be hard to fight inside it a good % of the time unless you are being attacked quite a bit. Your dominion can also be pushed around fairly easily, and if you are playing the AI, they usually have high dominion pretenders as a standard. 2.) Who is going to be doing your research if not your pretender (who you said is fighting) and Drain 3 with Black Faith priests? If you are not going to focus on magic, why so many picks in magic and searching? 3.) Hand in hand with question 2. If you are going to research. Why use Fire lanters (Construction 6) when you have Skull Mentors (Construction 4) and Owl Quills (Construction 2) more availiable. [ December 18, 2003, 20:53: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
there are other research bonuses than the lanterns. air and death gems can make two that I can think of
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Re: Iron Faith Ulm
I always go high in construction with ulm as I love the mechanical men. They work so well against the electrical, fire, and poison creatures produced by many other races.
Yes...I fight only within my own dominion with my lich. But my dominion, though weak initially, will grow strong as more temples are constructed. The lich will become a defensive combatant after that. Initially, your domain spreads unless there is an opponent very nearby. My plan was to have the pretender do research unless I get lucky and find sages, at least until construction 4. Then he goes out to find some death gems and make skull mentors for some inquisitors unless I've found something better to research for me. With inquisitors, it should be fairly easy to reverse enemy dominions as they will have a priest level of 5 for that effect. Fire lanterns are constructable by my native mages...the skull mentors can only be made by my pretender...again unless I find something else able to construct them. Hopefully, I will eventually be able to summon something else to do this. Of course there will be skull mentors before there are lanterns, but eventually there will be researchers with lanterns who do not have skull mentors until I can summon something to make them. I prefer to save my air gems for eyes of aiming. Without these, blade wind is much less effective. The picks in magic are for the magic that I will need in order to best maximize the national mages, which after all are the only mages I know for a fact that I will get. The reason for going up to 4 is so that I will have some bless effect. What have you done with Iron Faith, Zen? I know you are someone who has experimented with it in the past if I recall your Posts correctly. (I have been having luck with a great sage and Ulm, and I also want to test out different pretenders.) |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Interesting design. I don't know IF or Ulm well but I do in principle like using magic rich pretenders for Ulm. As I see it the biggest thing they give is gems, indie mages and summonging sites from searching and their research value is high early. However I'm not sure the Lich is the best choice due to cost. Here is my attempt at your idea.
IF Ulm Great Sage - Earth 4, Fire 4, Death 4, Air 3, Nature 2, Water 1, Astral 1. or Great Sage - Earth 4, Fire 3, Death 2, Air 3, Nature 2, Astral 3, Blood 2 Orde and prod +3, misfortune and drain 3, Dominion 4, Castle. I choose the Sage as he really kicks butt with research and as you were using 4 paths he is alot cheaper than a Lich even though he does require protection - body guards and a robe/amulet missile protection while searching and lots of accompanying commanders as time goes on. I dropped air to 3 as the bless effect didn't seem important to Ulm and I grabbed some more cheap magic paths to aid searching and research. Upgradd to castle and Prod +3 - which is pretty fundamental to Ulm. Research construction for a couple of turns and then go searching for awhile before returning to researching once you've got a decent gem income. Hopefully you will find sites that can produce good indie mages and you are away. You weak dominion will allow you to research outside your drain effect with your main research team boosted by skulls. The second option is drop death to 2 (you can make items to go to 3) and Fire to 3 (I would recommend this) and use the points to boost other paths. This gives the Sage 28 research points a turn plus phenomenal site searching and indie mage finding - which is the key to long term success. Ability to construct magic items is also somehting outrageous which is nice and will in time open up pretty much every field of magic. Cheers Keir |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
The only reason to take IF is if the player is looking to exploit the Templars. Otherwise I would advise taking basic Ulm.
On the assumption that we are taking IF in order to exploit the Templars, then we need to make a pretender that can boost them via blessing effect. If you are looking for a rainbow pretender... I suggest going back to basic Ulm. For a pretender that has some synergy with Ulm and provides good blessing effects I recommend the Great Mother. Try: Great Mother Earth - 6 Nature - 6 Order-3 Prod-2 Grow-2 Misf-3 Drain-3 Dominion-5 Wizards Tower (ulm needs production) The Great Mother can start the game following the troops and casting Legions of Steel. Later on once you get her some magic items, she can become a very potent combatant. In the meantime your Templars (when blessed) get some nice boosts. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Apoger,
I agree with you...the only utility of IF is to exploit the templars...and that you get sermon of courage if you think you are going against a race which casts spells like panic on you a lot. I'm taking IF for a different reason...because the first time I took it...I did very, very poorly. And I want to redeem myself. I've also always been using a great sage with Ulm...which works very well but gets old. I agree with you that ulm desparately needs production. Having to go down to a fortress to get bless effects is truly giving up something. And I could reduce the lich to air-3 instead of -4 and lose only a 20% air shield but gain a normal castle. I do have one question regarding your setup: Why take growth? For the gold bonus? I know the great mother is a good pretender. I just can't get past the way she looks, though. Hehe. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
SM,
When you pick IF, you are looking at two things. 1.) You have no combat mages to speak of. Even if you get lucky, they are going to be piss poor and cost alot to invest them to make them so. 2.) You are playing standard Ulm but trying ot maximize a blessing effect. Like Alex said, the only reason to take IF is for the Bless effects otherwise Base Ulm is far superior. A rainbow is counterproductive to bless effects. I don't know if I'd pick earth either, since it's bless effect really doesn't shine until 9 unless you have combat mages. Reinvigoration on heavy and expensive templar doesn't do as much for me as say, Berserk, or +Att and Flaming weapons. I have been in the middle of a game so I haven't really had time to respond http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'll have more time for an in depth response a little later. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Alright now that I'm done, and I've had a chance to think about it.
I'd either go all out for a bless effect or I wouldn't play IF. Since Black Templar already have high protection (24) I wouldn't really worry about that. They have lower hit points (15) and other minimal stats 13 str, 11 att, 10 def, 10 mr. My choice would be either to go for a Water, Fire, or Nature blessing of 9. Nature +3 Berserk and Regen/Poison resist nets you with a Templar with 3 hp Regen a turn (out of 15) 27 Prot, 16 str, 14 att, 7 defense. Fire +4 Att and Flaming weapons (8 AP damage). That means 15 att and 3 Attacks first round 2 attacks second round with 8 AP damage included. Water +4 Defense and Quickness (50%). That means 14 Def, 5 attacks first round, 4 attacks second round. Now those don't really mean anything unless you decide how you are going to use your Black Templar. they are too expensive to make a majority of your force, and considering the investment into a Bless Effect they have to be able to stand up to summons as you will have only clockworks and maybe some crusher/Iron Dragons late in the game. Even if you invested in 9 Astral you'd only get +3 MR for a total of 13 so you are still weak against magic. You can chance it and take Water9 and use your templars as rear killers and hope to get a commander if not tear up archers. Be safe and take Fire9 and use your templars to kill summons, though you are going to have a problem with fire summons. Play the stat game and go Nature9 and hope that high protection will save you enough each round for you to regen. None of them look very promising and for that reason it's hard to play IF. Maybe if the Priests had Drain immunity like the smiths; but as it is; they are IMO useless for anything but sermoning. And no matter which I took I'd take Order 3, Production 3, Misfortune 3, and Drain 1 (at minimum) and a Castle. With such expensive Sacreds, you are probably not ever going to be able to make more than 4 or 5 a turn. [ December 19, 2003, 03:21: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
>I'm taking IF for a different reason...because the first time I took it...I did very, very poorly. And I want to redeem myself.
Perfectly good reason. >I do have one question regarding your setup: Why take growth? For the gold bonus? Absolutely. Ulm needs every ounce it can get. It doesn't win with it's magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif >I know the great mother is a good pretender. I just can't get past the way she looks, though. Hehe. As an easy alternate you could go with a Dragon (take fire-9 or nature-9) with just one less dominion strength. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
IMHO taking Drain3 for IF is a mistake : you'll end up with 1 RP mages (!!), and even indy sages will have only 4... unless you take either a Sage/RB pretender or a weak dominion, but both "solutions" defeat the basic purpose of "abusing" Templars.
Overall I find IF Ulm weak ond poorly balanced : to get an effective design you need a magically strong (for bless) pretender but also needs to have it master more than one path ('cause your mages are crappy lvl 1 ...), you need Order (as everyone except undeads), Prod (Ulm is resource intensive), Magic/drain at 0 or above (as said earlier, but if you take 2 or more you blow up your MR...), Dominion, and even a decent castle (production) ! What you get are sacred lvl 1 mage-priests and sacred heavy Templars Knights, that are very expensive. You can't count on numbers, against weak opposition they're not needed, but if faced with strong oppositions they are brittle against magic - so they are a quite risky bet ! Lastly you also lose the quite useful Forge bonus... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
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Re: Iron Faith Ulm
I agree that IF is weaker overall than standard Ulm. But to me that just makes it more of a challenge to make it work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I got very unlucky in my initial battle...lost my starting troops and some barbarian mercenaries to a smaller number of independent barbarians (fewer indie barbarians than mercenary barbarians mind you). That doesn't happen every day. I didn't realize that my priests would cast that silly earth spell...throw inaccurate stones or something...instead of sermon of courage because Abyssian priests don't behave that way. Morale is a major boost for ulm troops. Still, I've rebounded nicely. And I didn't remember that my mages with IF were earth 1, ? 1. The random pick is nice in that you will have mages capable of forging all the basic items of each sphere if you are selective about whom you send to the front lines. I completely agree that these mages need to be able to research in a drain environment. But I'm not holding my breath. (I'm actually wondering why they can't...maybe it was an oversight...maybe it is to compensate for the wider array of magical items craftable at reduced cost in IF ulm.) I've also given thought to a death/nature pretender with this theme. Death for fear and nature for berserk (though that's going to make the defense really low on the templars). I'm also imagining life after death for ulm templars...and smiling. I just don't think ulm will support two level-9 blessings due to its other "requirements" for success as a nation. The more I think about nature-9 the less I like its bonuses on sacred mages. I don't want my mages to turn berserk and stay on the battlefield. (Maybe this particular "bonus" could be made applicable only to non-mages?) I also agree with those who said that a drain scale is rough for IF ulm. Ulm seems to me to be much more dependent than average on the sites you are able to find. I think that is why the great rainbow sage works so well for them. I find myself wishing I could use a scorpion king as a pretender for Ulm. Fire-9, earth-9 would be devastating. Especially when you remember that a decent number of indie mages are sacred. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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I don't find it subpar , but is not flexible, you have to follow a relatively rigid strategy : * Research/Sage pretender to keep research at a good level on early game, then to find sites * Try to get indy sages asap * Focus research in Construction first * Forge Earth Boots and Dw Hammer asap to maximize item production (funny : the Hammer even works for Blood items !!) In MP the forge bonus is also very useful to get good trades and keep allies - you build at 50% cost, can sell at 80% and get profit ! * Once your smiths have Earth boots they can use Summon Earthpower to get Earth-3 and summon Elementals, and use nice support spells. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Ulm:
Has major issues with production. Has very inflexible and limited magic. This makes Ulm poor for training (IMHO). >you have to follow a relatively rigid strategy And how are new players supposed to know that ridgid strategy? Hence... not good for training. >* Research/Sage pretender Rainbow pretenders as a training tool? Only if you want blood to drip from the players ears as their brain overloads. How about demonstrating basic economics, military, and national magics, before exploding into this sort of complication? Remember this is all in the context of "Training". >* Research/Sage pretender to keep research at a good level on early game, then to find sites >* Try to get indy sages asap >* Focus research in Construction first >* Forge Earth Boots and Dw Hammer asap to maximize item production This sort of strategy in multiplayer will turn you nation into a juicy gem treasure chest which will be savaged by it's neighbors. It's not my intention to be mean or contentious... but this (again IMHO) isn't a good way for new players to go. Arco and Man are both easily recognized human themes. They both have flexible magics and low resource troops. Ulm "looks" easy but it really isn't. The Last thing that players need is even more frustration when they get into this duanting game. I suggest Arco or Man rather than Ulm for new players. I understand that you have found some strength in Ulm. That's all well and good. However, just becuase it's potency can be cultivated, does not equate with "good for training". |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Apoger,
I myself learned (what I know) about Dominions by playing Ulm. I haven't taken a stab at MP yet. My guess is that rainbow ulm would be more viable if your opponents couldn't see your gem income (graphs disabled). I hadn't considered that aspect...but you're right. If one of my neighbors had a much higher gem income than another...all else being equal I'd want to take over some of it. I sort of see the managing production and limited magic as a way to teach new players about basic game mechanics of units before getting too deeply involved in magic, which with the way it is structured in non-intuitive schools with some spells requiring multiple magic types, is confusing initial yet ultimately wonderful in its complelxity. The player knows the rigid strategy because you tell it to him when you say to try Ulm. Of course, it's quite likely this ulm strategy won't work all that well in MP as you point out. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
On the 'Ulm for n00bs' discussion:
As best I can tell, basic Ulm is the easiest nation to wrap your brain around. Build strong armies, research construction, go beat everyone else up. With a Combat Pretender (an MP liability I'm sure, but fine for SP) it's even simpler because you inherit the smithy goal of clothing your pretender for war. As such, I'd say it's almost Dominions Lite and imminently suitable for dragging someone into the game. Since that's what I did, I know it works for getting into the game. It does have SERIOUS cons though. Things I'm finding as I expand out: 1) You wind up with almost no concept of what priests are supposed to do. 2) You have very little concept of what mages are supposed to do. 3) You have a skewed, high-resource perspective on what it takes to build an army. 4) You have a skewed, too-confident perspective on how hardy an infantry unit ought to be. 5) You have a skewed, too-weak perspective on how effective archery is. 6) You have a tendancy to want to look at Construction for solutions to your problems. Still, Ulm is what got me here. Therefore I immediately abandoned my Caelum game (geh, the best troops have no mobility) and tried to set up an IF game. I think I got a lucky start. I decided to go with a Great Sage pretender with 4 in everything but Blood. Dominion 5; Order, Production, Heat, Misfortune and Drain were mostly maxxed (Heat 2 mebbe). I got a Fortress, cheapest 30 Admin. The goal was to use mercs to clear the surrounding territories while the Sage researched (30+/turn on Drain3) and the Templars were built. By the time the surrounding territories were cleared I had a dozen templars, a 4 Holy Prophet, and quite a bit of research accomplished. The 4 Holy is the key. I can split the templars into two wings that get blessed with the battlefield bless. And the whole battlefield gets morale support too. The pretender is in the process of spinning through the adjacent territories and my gem income is skyrocketing. The army is unstoppable, one opponent in home siege with no other territories and another only a few turns away from the same thing (it's only turn 20 or so). As a standard, I'd probably take five of the seven magics and try to preserve my scales a bit, mebbe upgrade to a Castle. As it is, and I think I was lucky, IF looks very viable as a nation that can rapidly build a devestating force. ~Aldin |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Alex (apoger),
I *do* use that strategy just right now in MP, and with some serious gamers .. up to now successfully, but it's only turn 25 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Obviously one also has to get wise in diplomacy and careful about the "stated" gem income - income from trade and items doesn't count ! But maybe I'm wrong and will get bLasted... Well, life will tell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ! As for the "training" part, just note that it's *harder* to find a strategy with a more versatile nation... In fact when playing Ulm you discover step by step "the" strategy you can use, and so you get a grasp at how to use more "rich" nations strategy-wise. In fact my first Dom1 game was with Pangea : I didn't succeed in anything and had no idea on how to use their troops and magic. Then I tried Man, it wasn't much better. Then Arco, I did learn much but was *very* bad with magic, because Arco has mostly "random" paths for mages. I played my first pbem with Arco, and was trounced on the first fight with another player, even with 4:1 odds on my side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , just because I was waaaay behind in magic and had no idea on how to use it effectively... Then I played Ulm, and finally was able to put it all together and define at least a strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif : units, spies, mages, items, spells - mostly because the choices were narrower, (only 2 magic paths, no sacred units, etc..) ! So my experience matches Aldin's, and I still would suggest a new player to train with Ulm ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Note : No offense taken, nor meant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
They do have the forge bonus on the IF main mage.
However I do agree that IF is a weak theme for a nation that is already sub par. Ulm is a very challenging nation and I wish people would stop recommending it to the new players. I suggest Arcoscephale or Man as better training nations. |
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I'm doing much better with IF this time.
I did wind up using those owl quills early on. If only to free up my pretender to site search. Converting 1 rp to 4 rp in a drain 3 dominion is a good thing. Well worth the 3 air gems it will cost you once you have a black priest with a random air. I'm really enjoying getting the random picks. And I can squeeze blade wind out of these priests. The ones with two earth (due to a random earth) are going to be as good at blade wind as traditional smiths. It does seem that it takes a while longer to get to blade wind due to slower research than with standard ulm, but I'm almost there by turn 30 or so. I had a difficult time with Caelum as my neighbor since the AI is fairly adept at using Caelum's flying to target my least defended provinces and casts that black hawks spell quite a bit. Looking back, I'm very glad I took picks in air since that enabled the owl quills (and it can be hard to find air sites with just a random 1 air, which you might have to build a bunch of mages to get). I'm also glad I took picks in death as the skull mentors kicking in at construction-4 really makes your research take off. And finding death gems if you have death-4 is a lot more reliable than finding sages. The AI (Caelum) seems to have found some wizards for me. 3 random picks on those guys, and they have research-10. At around 150 or so gold each, that seems to be a better deal than sages in my dominion and will give me some new magic combinations to play with. It is a slower start, but the more I think about not having magma bolts friendly fire later in the game once all scripted spells are cast in long battles...the more I'm starting to like IF. The slow start you can get with this nation I think makes it a bit more of a challenge. I'd love to hear other folks' experience. |
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I just noticed how great those inquisitors are preaching against enemy dominion.
I was storming Caelum's capital. (Payback!) While seiging, I just had my priests (about 4 of them) preach for 2 rounds. With their pretender (a dragon posing as a sage) in their castle, it only took two turns to go from Dominion -6 to Dominion +3. The dragon's hps in my +3 dominion were laughable and turned it into an easy kill. When those SC pretenders drop in hps, they take afflictions quite often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif In the process of killing him, he became weakened, chest wounded, limp, and feebleminded. I'm especially happy with the "feebleminded." I wonder if those bird-brains will be smart enough to notice they are worshipping a feebleminded moron. Probably not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Owl Quills ? For standard Ulm Fire Lanterns (Cons6, Fire 1) are much better (+6 RP), aren't more expensive, can be built by any smith and use (often) more readily available Fire gems.
With IF you only have "random" Fire mages, but I still think lanterns are a best bet- keep air gems for Robe of shadows or stuff like this ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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~Aldin |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
I've experimented a bit more with this and concluded that the templars are just distraction. It's the change to your mages that is important. And I think the same kind of rainbow sage that works with vanilla ulm works with IF. Sure...you may only have a reinvig bonus for your magi if you took earth 4 and the rest a rainbow...but you need a variety of gems to make your research work. Especially if you take drain 3 which I still find wise.
My thinking is that if you take a decent bless effect, you are in effect ignoring your nation's research or other needs. (Such as productivity/order). Thoughts? |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Well; you have to consider what you're getting. You're getting a 1 earth, 1 random mage for your mages. And you are using them to create your magic. Now I don't know how many other nations you've played successfully; but that is quite a limitation.
I personally would not play IF for it's mages. The only reason that I would play IF would be either for ****s and giggles to say I have (which I have done) or to try to create some blessing effect. Under no circumstances would I not play (In MP) Order/Production/Misfortune. Otherwise you are not taking advantage of one of Ulm's strengths and might as well be playing a different race. Edit: Owl Quills are excellent all around; unless you are saving your Air gem income for something specific a 5 gem Quill for 3 more research a turn is an excellent tradeoff. [ December 21, 2003, 17:03: Message edited by: Zen ] |
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As far as taking Drain with Iron Faith goes- why not? On the Ulm description screen it says they are immune to drain. I can see this not applying to indies, though..
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Only Master Smiths (base Ulm) are unaffected by the Drain scale. Anything else, including Black Priests (the IF mage), takes the full effect of the Drain scale.
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How about the Pretender?
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Pretenders are not immune either.
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Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Ulm must have a special mage skill False Advertisting, then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Re Ulm for training.
I think there is some virtue to learning with Ulm - its simple as long as you don't use a Rainbow mage. Rainbow mages are very confusing. I don't really agree Alex that Arco and Man are particularily suited to learning based on my early experiances. Sure Arco kicks butt and makes Ulm look like a bot of a joke (better troops, better magic) but I found the magic so overwhelming (all the random picks) that I rapidly moved on when I was learning Dom1. As for Man it was the first race I tried and it was not at all good for learning for me - I found Man tricky and the friendly fire casualties very annoying. For me Abyssia was the race I really learnt to play Dom with as the combination of good priests, decent magic in a small range of fields, and good HI gave me a good feel for how to cause carnage. The major drawback is the blood but I just ignored that to begin with. I think the best thing to do for learning dom is to pick the race you are most enthusiastic about and work from there. Sure your first pick may not work but hopefully the enthusiasm will carry you on to the next race. In terms of simple learning races Vanheim is fairly straightforward and multi-faceted. However the truth is in Dom nothing is really straightforward and simple so if you can't handle all the twists and turns you are not going to get far with Dom. I'm really not sure on the best approach to IF as I don't think you can make the Templers work as the basis for your race. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I have had a number of goes at making sacred knights work but in my experiance the lack of hitpoints ruins the whole deal. The simple fact is a bunch of poxy low level astral indie mages will slaughter your Knights and thats just one of the many magical threats to a very expensive dude with ~15HP's. Vanheim suffers from this a bit as the Van cost alot but the lower resource cost and the fact that you can build them everywhere overcomes the problem. If you can only build 5 Templers a turn you aren't likely to get a really large force and once full on war is engaged loses will make the build up insignificant. One bad battle and its all over for the Templers. Playing with Vanheim MP in Dom1 I found myself building ~20 Van a turn plus plenty of Hirdmen to take the casualties - someone has to die. Why do people take level 4 in a magical skill for Rainbow mages? A mixture of 2&3 would seem far more affordable and 4 doesn't improve site searching and seldom confers worthwhile bless benifits. Cheers Keir [ December 21, 2003, 20:05: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ] |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
>Why do people take level 4 in a magical skill for Rainbow mages?
For bless effects. |
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BTW, did someone experiment with "Golem Cult" Ulm ? It looks like a good idea if the effects on Clockwork Horrors are good enough ... |
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>Lvl 4 bless effects aren't that impressive...
Just explaining it, not advocating it. I don't even like rainbow mages. >BTW, did someone experiment with "Golem Cult" Ulm ? It looks like a good idea if the effects on Clockwork Horrors are good enough ... Yeah, did some work with it. You get a 10% increase in hit points per level of dominion at the creation province. I find the effect too limited for the effort you need to generate good effect. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Golem Cult is IMO a waste of points. Without instant access to any type of golem or golemlike effect it has no thematic feel. In addition the bonus is only within your dominion. It doesn't even make Golem's sacred.
I'm sure that when the Mod tools come a worthwhile Golem Cult can be created and balanced. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Musings on Rainbow Mages.
I found the choice of a Rainbow mage unappealling in Dom1 but haven't gone far enough with Dom2 to be sure. One of the big factors in site %. If this is set high a rainbow mage can have explosive impact. I fought an Ulm race in Dom1, 60% sites, which would have eclipsed my magical power (I was Vanheim) by about t.22. Fortunately, for me, I attacked ~t.17 and captured key mages producing sites just in time - the battles were very close and Ulms Air mages were better than mine. If the Ulm player had found an extra Firbolg fortress early that might have been enough to have defeated my attack - which was an all in effort with mutltiple stages included regrouping, fighting off counter attacks and then goīng forward again. One of the key questions was for Ulm to get enough HI out as my Blade Winds devestated his Fall Bears and lesser troops. Orb Lighting (Titan with high Air, boots of quickness) was my other trump card but I didn't start the assault with the Titan fully operational and his air mages could counter the Titan and Van's air magic when it got going fully. I had Caelum to the north so I pulled most of my Van air mages out of the conflict after the first stage. My amazon 2 astral mages did sterling work at times but it really hurts when they hit a Van. Looking back on that game it seems to me that when you consider the decline in cost of the Rainbow Mages things may have gone differently if fought under Dom2. As I was doing very well with the Van that makes me think that Ulm with a Rainbow mage can realistically hope to staunch it out early and then match or exceed other races in magic later due to high gem income and all the mages you find. How competitive this is depends alot on the % of magic sites and I'm looking at 60% as the standard now days - searching is more fun. If this makes Rainbow pretenders more viable then thats an cool. One issue is that Rainbow pretenders arn't easy to use. This doesn't mean a new player keen on them shouldn't use one but that they should be aware of what they are getting themselves in for. If they are keen enough they will prosper but they will certainly learn some harsh lessons along the way. I was advised not to use blood magic in my first Dom1 demo game but alternative advice to give Ice Devils a try proved well worth following and very enjoyable - for me at least. However it was alot of work what with having to learn to blood hunt, and equip mutliple super combatents - one a turn once summoning started. Equiping is a huge issue when you are doing it for the first time in a MP game and I lost my first few Ice Devils to fishies in the hot oceans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif After that they operated by air and inside Jotuns dominion were possible - and they fought in packs not ones. So I had setbacks but I learnt a huge amount. When I have put together Rainbow mages I have not been impressed with the value of taking picks to 4 without a very clear reason. Justifications might be earth 4 for a nation with alot of sacred mages or nature 4 for a nation with few sacred mages and some troops that could really benifit from the morale boost of going berserk - Templers perhaps. However Rainbow mages are expensive and that makes going to 4 a big issue. I certainly wouldn't want to leave any of the paths empty as its the cheap early picks that get you maximum return in terms of site searching and research. Even blood should not be ignored for both crafting (more magical paths combo'ing the better) and sites. While useful blood sites are rare they are also game breakers and to not have any chance of getting them when using a rainbow mages seems unwise to me. For me the basis of a Rainbow mage is 2 in everything you don't need three in. The things you need three in are those that require 3 for getting items to boost magic levels - air, fire . . . can't remember the rest off the top of my head but I think Astral is pretty crucial. Its this core of abilities that makes a Rainbow mage because they combo together. Going to 4 for bless effects is another thing which I think should be considered after you have got your basic template done. Missing out any of the elements of the basic template can have serious negative impact. You need to master all magic with a Rainbow mage to make it truly worth the investment and you can by building all the super duper items you get at con6. Combine that with the ability to find sites producing all the different magic gems and many indie mages and you have something to get your teeth into. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif cheers Keir [ December 21, 2003, 23:16: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ] |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Sounds like I'm an order of skill magnitude below you, Keir. My (newb-ish) reasons for choosing level 4 have been:
1) Because I heard that site searching required up to 4. I haven't seen the master list of sites, but it sounds like you're saying the level-4 ones are less worthwhile than the ones that are combos of levels 1-3. 2) To get level-4 bless effects. I actually think 2 or 3 level-4 bless effects look better than many of the level-9 bless effects. (e.g., I'd rather have templars blessed by Attack +2 and Defense +2, than have one of 75% Shock Resist, Twist Fate, 50% anti-poison, or Death Curse). Of course, with a level-9, you also get an improved level-4, but you can get a few level-4's for the cost of a level-9, and having several level-4's gives better site searching and spell variety, too. 3) So the pretender will be a fairly good mage in these areas, rather than something I could get pretty easily with a mortal mage plus an item or empowerment. Again with IF Ulm, the pretender with level-4's can (I thought - may be wrong) better help the Black Priests out with items to get them boosted with items matching their random picks. PvK |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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By the way, I think the most important unit with regard to Bless is the Black Priests themselves. Air Shield and Reinvigoration both look pretty good on a magic user... Quote:
3) Usually level 3 is good enough. ~Aldin (who also bumps his pretender to 4s and is certainly more of a n00b than PvK) |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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I reiterate! Don't do it! On average you only need 2 in any path to be a decent searcher. Low level sites are much more frequent than high level sites. I know the feeling of wanting to maximize your searching for all those delicious gems; but sometimes it's okay not to have every site in every province you own found. Especially if anyone has spies. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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Barring personal preference and people wanting to play different sorts of games. What do people usually play? |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
I find that with earth boots and summon earthpower I can still get blade wind out of the IF black priests.
I don't usually make my black priests 2 E, 2 of their random pick. I usually only give additional earth power to the priests I'm using for blade wind. Now, I do take really good care of my priests that end up with earth as a random pick. Because they are really, really good at blade wind...just like your traditional smiths. And they don't ever cast those annoying magma bolts when you end up massing HI against supercombatants. A lot of folks don't like to use eyes of aiming on their good commanders. I sprinkle them liberally on my blade winders. (But not everyone casts blade wind. About half the priests get scripted with Sermon of Courage.) The ones with blade wind get earth boots and eyes of aiming. I don't think that really makes them look like Toys R Us. Because you have to have earth magic to use the boots...and that isn't all that common among the other races' magi. Sure...Pangea and Vanheim will like earth boots, but they don't really need them. And I would love to watch a powerful assassin get two eyes of aiming. Of course, the owner of the assassin could prevent that by just having two misc items on the assassin already...but if the assassin dies I will get those. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The variety of items your IF priests can craft, especially with items that increase their random, is astounding. You can get into blood magic with random blood magi. It's really cool to play IF once you get your research up a bit. And independent magi are still as good as they always were. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The only picks I would go up to 4 in with IF are earth (2 benefits: reinvig for your magi and makes your pretender immune to the air spell that takes commanders to the caster) and death (lesser fear on the black templars is nice and I think you will pick death 3 anyway to make sure you find the death sites because you really need death gems for research). IF may not work that well in MP, but it's really enjoyable in SP. A lot of the nicer spells in certain spheres, such as air, do not require more than 1 level of skill. Orb lightning. That false horror spell. One question: can rocks attack? Or just defend? Because the preaching of IF is so good against hostile dominion that you can easily put a rock in +3 (for you) dominion to reduce his hps and kill it. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
My experience ain't much - but I'll weigh in my two cents just for the fun of it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Some random points:
1) The additional 1 fire for the Master smith is quite critical because it gives you access to "Magma Bolt", "Magma Eruption" and forging "Elemental Armor". All are very useful. 2) Rainbow mage works only when you play with non-aggressive players. You need the help of the pretender for early expansion in most games - even for Ulm. If you need to add variety to the standard Ulm theme, it's better to pick a durable pretender with Blood, Death or Nature on it. 3) I don't think that IF is very weak. The Mastersmith is nice but the additional magic variety from the Black Priest could be a big boost. And they're cheap and could be built anywhere. If you could get Earth Boot, and have some lucky pick (not very hard because the Priests are cheap), you won't lose that many spells. As SurvivalistMerc said, you can always get "Blade Wind" with Earth Boot and "Summon Earth Power", not hard with the large Earth Gem income for Ulm. 4) I don't think IF should pick drain 3. Drain 1 is too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . The nation points is attractive but the research will be too slow. 5) Black Templars are fun for SP but seem to be expensive to be practical. I'll be happy to be proved wrong on this... |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Zen,
The 2E2? was mostly a grins and giggles comment. I only boost mages when I need to for certain functions (1D to 2D for Skulls is an IF MUST). ywl, May as well do drain 3. You HAVE to do drain 1 to access IF. Since your mages are gonna be stuck at 1 research regardless, take the 3 and the points. ~Aldin |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
Ywl, some thoughts about yours http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
1/ I agree, the random pick makes the difference between standard, rigid Ulm and a much more versatile Ulm IF 2/ I disagree on this one : as I've said I'm playing Ulm currently in MP with a RB, and did expand at the same rate than others- except one nasty Abysian SC (and played by Pocus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif !) The standard Ulmish troops, with some Guardians for morale, some extra-ulmish archers, a merc band and a couple mages are enough. 3/ Maybe, I think that my first tries were disappointments because I played IF as if it was standard Ulm - big mistake undoubtly ! However I can't find any incentive for playing IF... 4/ Yes, I even think that Magic 0+ is a good idea with IF 5/ Ok too, you can't build a MP game around a dozen of Templars avoiding casualties ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
actually its not a SC, its a rainbow mage* which has a bad temper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
* : try the ghost king. He is awesome. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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~Aldin |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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Mercenary of course could be big help to Ulm's expansion but you don't always get the good ones. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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Re: Iron Faith Ulm
I have always found death sites to be plentiful, even more so if I have at least 3 picks in death. And there are a number of other sphere sites that generate death gems also.
I find that if I take both air and death on a rainbow type mage then I can safely go to drain 3 with ulm IF. Because you will get random air magi capable of making owl quills. And I think you are certain to get one or the other of death or air gems early in the game. (There have been games where I didn't get air early on but never where I didn't get death.) Construction 6 takes a very long time to reach with just your pretender doing the research. Those lanterns are nice...but they aren't much help early on as they are construction-6. I have had success with drain 3 every time except my initial experiment when I didn't know what I was doing. The way I look at it...the extra points from the drain scale paid for my RB mage's death and air picks, which more than makes up for it. If Stone Idols weren't high construction, I suppose you could use them in your research province (secondary castle) early on. |
Re: Iron Faith Ulm
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Mercenary of course could be big help to Ulm's expansion but you don't always get the good ones. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As for the benchmark, we are under that - less than 10 provinces each - but the map only has some 56 provinces for 7 players, so ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And I admit I was dreaming about IF magic scale - indeed Drain-1 is a req... this should kill the theme http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif |
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