Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

I have been playing almost non-stop with the occasional break for work, sleep, family and food but me and my friends have a gentleman's agreement to not use Iron Dragons. Are these units insanely powerful? I mean for the measely price of 25 Earth Gems you get a nearly unstoppable killing machine...what am I missing? Is there a chink that I'm not exploiting here? Are they easily killable with a few item combos? Help us out so we can add this untit back into our games please....

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Their magic resistance suX0Rs rear-end. Never ever neglet the power of magic resistance... or lack of it. A 3-Astral mage can kill an ID, or even worse, make it change sides. A lucky punk with 1-Death magic can give ID a death sentence.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

What spells are you specifically talking about ? I apologize for the newbishness here but we need help...what spells kill ID or allow you to take control ?

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

you should not ban a creature, at least try to comes with a solution, there is always at least one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For example against iron dragon, check all spells wich ask for a MR save. An example : If you play Jotunheim, have your mages cast disintegrate, with a spell focus for further MR breaching. If you compare what you must invest compared to what cost a dragon (20 gems ok, but researching to level 9 in construction too), then you will see that it is not as desequilibrated at you might think.

Check also spells which hamper move, like the various vine, entangle and bond spells (nature, fire, air, ...). They will stop in their track a creature for one round. In the meantime, some units can hammer at them.
There is also blindness, which will reduce the attack and defence too zero. Ok attack wont be important, because they trample (so I dont think the stat is used), but having a defence of 0 will mean that your troops will be able to kill them rather easily.

Just some ideas, but there is more.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Other than Vine Ogres Iron Dragons give the best 'bang for the buck'. The only thing they don't have is a very high Magic Resistance.

Control is your best bet. I gem per cast and it has almost a 50% chance to take over an ID.

Arcane Domination seems to take control of about 25% of attacking Iron Dragons per cast.

Casting a spell that will kill off all the attacking mages causes the Iron Draons to fall apart (Bone Grinding, Fire Storm, Acid Storm, Rain of Stones, Astral Tempest, Heat from Hell, Grip of Winter).


Unraveling destroys almost half of the Iron Dragons per cast.

Master Enslave gets you about 25% of attacking Iron Dragons per cast (Plus most of the units with low MR) but does enough fatigue to kill most mages.

Personally I try to have more IDs than whoever I am fighting, If I don't I just cast Control a lot.
These suggestions only help if you know that you will be facing the IDs.

Sammual

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Iron Dragons????

They're only good and banning them from a game is way overboard.

There are other spells just as powerful if not more powerful !
examples:
Ghost Riders = Army of Longdead Horsemen for 5 death gems
THUS 25 gems same price as your Iron Dragon... you have 5 of those armies which could easily do TONZ MORE damage then any one iron dragon !!

Wild Hunt = Global Enchantment which sends one enemy priests by himself every turn to fight a powerful nature assassin plus army of strong wolves. Much better assassin then any Iron Dragon could even wish to be.


these are just two examples !

[ December 23, 2003, 22:05: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Yah considering its a level 9 spell, and how many levels of earth magic do you need to summon it? (probably invested a few gems there getting a mage that powerful, unless that was your initial pretender). That late in the game you shouldn't have to pay ungodly amounts of gems to summon powerful creatures, I mean its assumed you're already powerful as it is.

Besides no creature is perfectly good. As mentioned already with magic. Plus I'm sure enough lower level creatures and you can overwhelm even an iron dragon. Never had one myself personally, but also can you heal them? Or are they like golems?

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

In Dom1 there were some things that eventually became common to agree not to use. Only until a patch fixed them tho which did usually happen.

But in general, this is an excellent game of balances. If you feel something is too powerful (or too worthless) you might want to do some creative thinking.

If anything DOES seem in either Category let us know.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

The replies have been awesome...thanks a lot..I will share what I've gathered here...looks like ID's aren't quite as "Uber" as I had previously thought. LOL...and apparently there are far worse things than a unit of ID out there...sheesh...this game is insane...I love it !!!

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Hi,

I'm a relative newb, but I should think that playing Jotun with Neifel theme could also deal with them. Those Jarls are SC's by themselves, especially once you can equip them decently. Just offering another solution.

Also, I haven't done this, but from looking at the stats for the Troll King and his court when I cast it makes me think it would do well vs IDs.

This would be an interesting trial for the new battle simulator someone's done. I.e. what can kill IDs?


Ciao,
V'ger gone

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too many. A bunch of ghosts or vampires will do. They're ethereal and have high defense, so that they're less likely to be trampled. Their attacks are armor piercing. And they're cheaper in term of gems and accessible at lower level.

Even a Firblog with a good armor-negating weapon may be able to finish one off - not sure on this, somebody has to test.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Go for it=) Just post the stats for an Iron Dragon (in the correct format) in the Battle Sim thread, and I'll add it to the simulator=) Or feel free to add it yourself, and learn the results in secret http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The data files are all easily-edited text files.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

[quote]Originally posted by ywl:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vger: Even a Firblog with a good armor-negating weapon may be able to finish one off - not sure on this, somebody has to test.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">.. the ID isn't lighting-resistant, right?
The combo will work on lots of others "biggest monsters", too, though ...


Thunder Bow
(10 air gems; STR armor negating damage)
Girdle of Might
( 3 earth gems; +3 STR, +3 Reinv.)

Those quite low-level and easy to forge items will result in:

DAM 20 (lighting, armor-negating)
range 30
prec 18

I went for girdle of might because the Firbolg is rather heavy encumbered, and I found them rel. often with fat. >10, which will incure them a -1 penalty, when they ran around to get the nicest target in range ...
Maybe a total prec of 18 is too low, so you might want to add a Eye of Aiming, and maybe a Bear Claw while you're at it, for another 5 damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

A.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

>.. the ID isn't lighting-resistant, right?

It's 100% resistant to all elements and poison.

Sending in troops versus ID's is just a good way to lose troops. Magic that requires a MR check is their real weakness.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Are they vulnerable to Elf Bane, too?

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Elf bane would probably work... but unless the character holding it is BEEFY you don't want to lose a magic weapon if the dragon tramples over him/her first.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

Can one repel a Trample attack? If yes, what is it's length? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Maybe spears, or pikes, (length 3-5) though I could see it being only length 0 too...

Oops, forgot the main idea: If the "length of trample" ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) is zero, then you would have one chance to repel with elf bane. Well, it would be something...

[ December 24, 2003, 19:05: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it checks against your "defense" value. So, lightly armored units have the advantage (make sense, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . So do ethereal units though I don't know what's the bonus is. Worse for the trampler is: even if he has some very good melee weapon, he'll still trample by default even facing high-defense units. That's why I mentioned ghost, which has a decent defense and ethereal.

Trampling damage is armor negating and related to the trampler's size - somebody else could probably give you a precise formula.

Iron Dragons are powerful, especially since they're so mobile. But it's not the end of the world.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">.. so switch Thunder Bow for Ethereal Crossbow plus Boots of Quickness ...

A.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

>.. so switch Thunder Bow for Ethereal Crossbow plus Boots of Quickness ...

Might as well cast soul slay which will happen twice as often and always "hits".

I like ethereal cbows, but as a way to augment an already prepared army. I wouldn't suggest them as a main defense versus ID's. I understand the allure of stacking up items on characters as an attempt to replace mages. In practice I have found that it doesn't work very well.

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One astral mage can forge several ethereal crossbows, or die once to Magic Duel. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Not everyone is a strong astral nation.

Vision's Foe is good too - armor negating, automatic eye loss on each hit. Two hits and he's blind.

Besides, there's no reason you can't put the ethereal crossbow on a mage. I suggest a Tuatha (prec 17 IIRC) with his random in water, scripted for Quickness, Eagle Eyes, Aim, fire large monsters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (Maybe add a defensive spell or two - but Tuatha already have high defense and glamour, so he'll probably be OK without.) Or if that's too expensive for you, Sidhe Champions have about 14-15 base PREC, and can also cast Eagle Eyes and Aim (and forge themselves Eyes of Aiming if that still isn't enough).

Re: Iron Dragons=Uber Unit ??
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not 100% sure, but I believe Eagle Eyes and Aim don't stack.