Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

I guess im quite new in this forum, but I have played DOM 1 and DOM 2 (great games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )for some time. But my opinions about tactics and strategy etc. havent much refined. So I would be glad to hear some "fresh" thoughts about Pythium in general and some more advanced strategies.

I prefer have a rainbow mage as a pretender when playing Pythium. She is a Great Enchantress
and she has 2 in every path except astral(3), death(3)[or nature, depends on the opponents and map] and blood(0). Dominion is order 3, prod. 0, growth 3, misfortune 3, magic 0. Fort is 30-admin. and costs 60 points. Oh and dominion str. is 5.
Strategy: (Main line)At the start i grab the nearby provinces with mercs. and basic legionnaires with standards.(I guess everyone does this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif )I buy some theurgs and arch theurgs for research and put my pretender to search sites from provinces(or with acashic record). I continue to build temples and build forts to expand my army. I have high because of order and growth. After turn twenty I forge rings of sorcery and wizardry, starshine skullcap and staff of elemental mastery. Before that i have made owl quills with my starting gem income to boost my research. I also create forge of ancients so my basic mages can forge many useful things. The next magic paths would be alteration and conjuration. I gain ivy king with treelords staff if i research conj. If i get it, I would make a combo between Vine ogres and hydras.(i have high income) and with alteration my arch theurgs can cast will of fates and fog warriors and some other spells with some boosting. That is basis of my strategy and I know that i havent written all here and this still can improve. But i ask you, am i on a right trail? Thanks for reading and caring. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Hydra’s (at least in Dom I) are wonderful creatures. That poison cloud will really hurt an enemy army. I used to have two hydra’s with some cheap, low morale units, all in the same group. I put them as far forward as I could. They would advance and attack. The cheap units would die quickly (often due to poison), causing a rout. The hydras would flee, leaving a long cloud of poison. The enemy army would chase them, through the poison, taking lots of damage.

Recover hydra’s from neighboring province, mix with a few new cheap troops and repeat. Sure, they are exposed to arrow fire and you rarely win a real battle, but for wearing out big enemy concentrations or slowing invasions, they are nasty. However, DO NOT mix with your real armies, you will do at least as much damage to yourself. Consider them your special forces.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

That is what you would like to do, but what if you never find any earth sites? Or any astral sites besides your starting one? Those things do affect your strategy. Think about things you will do if things don't go as you want them to go. Oh, and Acashic Record is quite an expensive spell: don't use it just because you can. Astral gems have better uses. (I do the same thing myself all the time in Dom1, and am finding out why I shouldn't in my current game...) Conjuration also gives you Angelic Hosts, Harbringers and Coatls, all are very nice summons. And depending on the gem income you get, you might be able to summon various elemental courts. With some items, you can go for Air you have your own mages, Fire you can get with Archangel from the Host, Water has cheap bonus items so you might be able to get them too and Earth might be possible with your pretender and some of the more expensive items (elemental staff and ring os wizardry).
What level of Earth does Firbolg Fortress need? If it is three, you might go for that. The free forts help, and that must be the most common castle-giving site in the game. Atleast it was in Dom1...

Okay, there were some thoughts. Not sure about its quality, but that is the advice I can give for you.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

I use hydras with my wholly poison resistant army that contais lamia queen with 2 summer swords, crown of command and 2 endless wineskins. The other commander is a ivy king with treelords staff. So its easy to summon vine ogres much and cheap and have them too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I also prefer abominiations as support troops(also poison res.) Its easy summon them with Pythium (arch theurgs)

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

I don't believe having two wine skins in the same commander helps more than just one... Try having another commander holding the other.

Abominations as support troops? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Well, that game is going quite well... Enjoy! Just hope no one casts nothing nasty... Always keep some astral gems for Dispel! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


EDIT: same thing for summer swords, and most other items... the effect equipment has on the commander stacks, but the effects the magic of the item has don't stack very often. That is, you get defence boost from multiple swords but otherways one is enough. Different items having the same kind of an effect stack, atleast in the cases I can think of.

[ December 29, 2003, 09:58: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

You definetely right about acashic record its too costy. I found that true in the current game im playing. (I rule the half of the map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) I found the forging of lowcost-magicbonus-artifacts effective. So should i keep same magic levels on my pretender?

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

So that doesnt increase your supply with 100 if you have for ex. 2 summer swords...? Right?

Wow, If you mean that, I have learned something useful. So I get more commanders!

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Depends. Do you want to keep the magics? Do you want to try somehting new? Would any bless effects boost your mages enough to consider that? Extra reinvigoration from Earth 4 might be, but you wouldn't be able to use that for anything else... And some people would warn you about Magic Duel: one lucky Shaman can kill your pretender... Luckily, you have more astral mages than most other nations, so that shouldn't be that big danger.

If you want a site-searcher, remember that one Arch Theurg has air-2 water-1 astral-3, so you shouldn't take those magics if you are not going higher than what any AT can do... Instead, buy one AT to go with your pretender. Or behind him, as you see what provinces you have already searched. With this, you could drop out astral, maybe air and/or water too, and go for better scales.
Oh, you had a Great Enchantress... Well, if you don't need astral gems that much you might want to try a druid. Bog beasts might be good to go with your hydras and vinemen, although you would have to be lucky to get good mages...
Or maybe you would like to try Serpent cult, for greatest success you should have some kind of a bless effect though.

Generally, do anything you like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Maybe you can pick one of these things and go with it. Maybe you would like to try other race for a change. Or maybe you should try going for a harder game. Damn, I started it againg... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

EDIT: I think you got it now. Two summer swords and one commander = supply one sword would give you.
two swords and two commanders, both holding one = supplies of both swords
also edited some grammar

[ December 29, 2003, 10:14: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Thanks for your tips those really freshened my thinking. Maybe the serpent cult and the other things you mentioned are worth of trying. When get I learned about Pythium enough I´ll move to Pangaea. Because I like Nature magic at the moment.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Pythium is absolutely amazing, and they seem to have a much easier time getting an early start that some of the other nations like ulm.

I set one of the AIs to ulm, so I will see how well I do against them.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Pythium rocks both magically and militarily.

Principe and Emerald Guard are both superb troops, and the others are pretty good as well.

Hydra rock.

Arch Theurgs casting quickness-orb lighning are great. Make a bunch of communicants, and 'super size' those orb lightnings!

For a bit of early game abuse... make 8 communicants and stack them with some therug acolytes. Have the acolytes cast communion master and then Smite X4. Not bad considering it takes zero research! However in a long fight you will kill the communicants via communion fatigue.

Theurgs can cast quickness-aim-star fire, for a bit of low cost/low research magic shooting.

As the game goes long the communicants can super charge the Arch Theurgs for an enormus number of battlefield spells. Storm Warriors/Wrathful Skies will put the hurt on most enemies.

Always remember that the Arch Theurgs can move anywhere using Cloud Trapeze.

Theurgs can cast Paralyze, Arch Theurgs can cast Soul Slay. With communion or Light/Banner or the North Star, upgrade to Enslave Mind. Astral magic pretty much rocks!


Pythium has one of the biggest boxes of toys in the game. Enjoy it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ulm can have a reasonable start - you just don't know how http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

I actually do get a reasonable start with Ulm. But since they are resource-dependent I like to take surrounding provinces, and that is not always easy.

I find that I need mercenaries to help me get a good start as Ulm. Because I can't (it's not possible) to buy very many troops at first until you get some more territories.

It would be great if you'd share your wisdom as to how you do it, ywl.

I imagine you are using a supercombatant pretender. I like RBs better with Ulm, but that is a matter of personal taste.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

One of the easiest way to quickstart Ulm is to take a pretender with earth-3. Such a pretender can cast legions of steel on the troops, making the starting force much more potent.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Thanks to you all! Your advices taught me some useful things. That orb lightning+quickness-combo is more than worth of trying. You made me to remember some other things too which I had forgotten.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was only teasing you - in no way, I'm belittling your skill http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . It's just Dominions is such a complicated game that everybody is going to miss something.

With a rainbow mage, the expansion would be slow for most nations, except for those few with cheap but powerful units, such as Man's Longbows, to a less extent, Tien Chi's archers or some javelin throwing nations (haven't tested those enough yet). I don't think I have much secret or magic there.

But if you're using the shieldless infantries with "only" 15 protection, the resource requirement (20 or 21) is not that much more than the different forms of Legionaires or the Hypaspist... And as Ulm, your units are so cheap that you always have more golds you can use in the first few turns. Outbidding the others on the mercenaries is easy. So, the expansion should not be too bad.

My trick is more to use the powerful low level earth items. With Construction 2, with the large number of earth gem income, you could easily put a "Boot of the Behemoth", "Black Steel Full Plate", "Lead Shield" and "Black Steel Helmet" on your pretender. You would have a trampler of 30+ protection! The only weakness would be a very high
encumbance.

But. If you're using a Prince of Death, it wouldn't matters - he does not suffer from any melee fatique. Your PoD would also have at least Death level 5. So, you'll have a flying trampler with fear +15 aura (and 30+ protection). What indies can stand in his way?

Moreover, with the points from drain, you can easily have one more path at level 4. If you use the order/misfortune combo, you could have another. For example, if you go for Nature and Water, he would have Regeneration (Enchan 2), Cold Aura (Enchan 1), Quickness (Alter 2). If you go for Nature and Fire, he would have Regeneration and Fire Shield. And or Astral?

Both Death and Nature can give you *very* good summoned mages once you've got to Conjuration 6. If you're lucky, Nature can also give you some very good sites that have versatile mages... So, you don't really need a killer, rainbow mage to diversify your Ulm setting. If you go for order/misfortune, a PoD could give your nations access to at least four paths. How many more can you ask for?

Actually, the optimization of a PoD with Ulm is so cheap and efficient - powerful combatant for early game and late confrontation, multiple magic paths, late game magic diversification - that I almost want to call it imbalance. But judging from the depth of the game, I guess I'd be proven wrong very soon in any MP game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gotta a slow race needing a rocket in its behind? Give it the PoD! Undercosted? When it comes to pretenders the PoD is the definition of the word. Not that I mind - I would like to see more like him. Just thinking of the dom1 Moloch makes me go warm all over - there was a pretender worth bowing to!

Giving decent armour to the PoD is amazing. I was using him to give one of the luck based Tien Ch'i themes a boost and got chainmail of displacement in a random event on turn one. Wohoooo!

Cheers

Keir

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

In terms of interesting ideas for Pythuum its good to remember bless effects and that all your mages are sacred.

Want to go over to the dark side after all with Pythium? PoD with Death9 and some breath of winters to knock off your blessed mages and bring them back as undead with no upkeep. ooh and research terror as its amazing with death 9 - billowing black clouds of terror.

Feeling hasty? Water 9 for some speedy Vestals and mages.

Always running out of breath? Nothing like some some earth for reinvigoration to keep those communions running.

In general I think Pythium is one those races in which the basics of what you get are so good that you just need to work on getting the best out of what you have got. So I wouldn't invest in a rainbow pretender, which would just provide me to much to think about, but rather go for strong scales to get more of your stunning troops and Mages along with some bless effects for if you are feeling spicey. If I ever get around to playing Pythium I'll be giving the undead mages trick a go.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Kier,

You really should try Pythium. It's amazing. I'm going to probably play it once or twice then move on to other nations because it just seems *too* good.

I can't find an overall national weakness. Powerful troops. Powerful priests. Powerful mages. All mages sacred. Additional communion bonuses you don't really need to make your nation powerful. Hydras as special forces...and an AI that will march troops right into the path of retreating hydras even if the troops can't catch the hydras...that seems a lot like an exploit to me. (And the solution may be to have the clouds not linger but only be around the unit during retreat...I don't know.)

Odd thing is that I don't have all that much difficulty against Pythium when it's an AI nation. I was impressed that the emerald guards could stand toe to toe with my black plate morningstar infantries...but given that they have a gp cost of 2.5 times what ulm's do...ulm has no real complaint.

I think I'm going back to Ulm Iron Faith after Pythium, then maybe Pangea. I'm waiting for a good Ry'leh guide, too. Iron faith is a nice challenge because the nation has deficits.

I absolutely love this game. It would be nice if you got random opponents but could exclude some if you wanted to. (I don't like the idea of Ermor in SP since the AI can't really deal with them.)

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check out....
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/

The map files are re-rolled every day. They use the Aran.tga so they could work for demo also (I did this when only the demo was out). If you download the Man.map then all you have to do is choose Man and start the game. The AI's are randomly selected, random difficulty, and sometimes allied with each other.

Actually you can play the man map with other nations but the only gaurantee is that Man is NOT one of the AI's. Thats why there is one for each race, fresh every day.

I meant to add some of my other random surprises to it... random commanders, specialized gods for AIs, scattered magic sites, additional labs/temples/castles scattered around the map.. but no one really said they were using these so I wandered off looking for something else I could do of interest.

--
People on the net dont understand how to "pay" for free stuff.

[ December 30, 2003, 16:33: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check out....
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/

The map files are re-rolled every day. They use the Aran.tga so they could work for demo also (I did this when only the demo was out). If you download the Man.map then all you have to do is choose Man and start the game. The AI's are randomly selected, random difficulty, and sometimes allied with each other.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, Gandalf, could you explain a little how the game should be set up? Which of the options (indie level, site percentage, whatever) still have their normal effect, and what would reasonable settings be? Which AIs should be used, and do they have "suggested" levels? (I'm not too confident using high-level AIs yet...)

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats why I don't play Pythium. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I've been playing Dom long enough now that its more fun to place some restrictions on what I uses and abuses.

Regarding Pangaea you should find this another very powerful race if you focus on the goodies. While it is not all rounded the Centaur Warriors are a truly wonderful unit and I would rate Pangaea third after Pythium and Arco in the top races list just ahead of C'tis. Don't underrate the Pan as they work a treat even for order races (which I recommmend for CW abuse). The fact that the Pan operate on the borders of your dominion mean the opponents dominion is more important than your own for Maenad production. Centaur Cataphracts are a good buy when you need your gold for Pan and make a crunchy center and Dryads are excellent. The white centaurs are good for fast moving CW units. Minotaurs and Satyrs don't rate in my book as they slow you down strategically and stop you building more centaurs.

You should find Iron Faith Ulm more of challenge. Still not sure of a decent approach for this race.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

I do find it more of a challenge. I think that's why I like it against the AI.

I'm playing IF against Abyssia, Atlantis, Ctis, Arco, and Pythium right now, and that is making for a very challenging game. I just found sages, though, so I will start to have some research. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Of course, I don't yet have any decent mages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I like nations with one or two central strengths but surrounding weaknesses that must be compensated for.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

>I would rate Pangaea third after Pythium and Arco in the top races list just ahead of C'tis.

In terms of fun to play perhaps...

I'm a fan of Pangaea, but in terms of strength it's nowhere near third place. IMHO, it's not even in the top 50%.

While the troops are very good, they aren't great. More importantly Pangean magic is expensive and lacks versatility.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

I have a hard time seeing Pangaea as more powerfull than Caelum, Man, Jotunheim, Vanheim, Machaka, Atlantis, or Rlyeh, let alone Pythium or Arcoscephale.

Re: Thoughts about Pythium...?
 

Unfortunately as much as I enjoy Pangaea, it is nowhere near as inherently strong as other nations.

It just doesn't have the kicking power of many of the others.

One note I have found though; I can't play T'ien Ch'i base with the kind of mobility and strength I can than with Spring and Autumn. It is the only forced Turmoil nation that I feel is close to the top 5. And while this doesn't apply to Pangaea it would be nice that they would make any turmoil intensive design as equally powerful as others. This is where I feel it applies to Pangaea.