Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

In the games I have played against human and computer opponents this spell seems to be the one of the strongest per cost. For only 5 death gems a large army of longdead horsemen with a powerful wraith lord.

I know for the single player games this spell is KEY for toasting 98% of any enemy armies.

The other key factor is no other spell even comes close to the amount of damage this spell can do to an army based on the cost.


My advice... either increase the cost of the spell or remove some of the longdead riders which appear.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

I used extensively this spell in pbem. Yes it is powerful, and will allow you to do damages to enemy patrollers or small armies.

On the other hand, you wont do much against big concentration of troops. I'm not speaking of these useless units the AI build en masse, like 200 tribal archers, but of heavy mundane units and summon that players do possess by the time you reach level 9 in conjuration.

I dont find it disproportionate compared to the amount of research needed, and compared to what other magic schools can do. If you tone it down, then you will want to tone done mist warriors for Air, because it render a whole enemy army very tough, or suppress mass domination for astral, etc.
Each school, upon reaching the end game, has big and efficient spells. Its normal. You have paid a big cost and you deserve to have nice spells.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

At level 9 research you should expect good effects.

Keep in mind that this spell won't do much damage to a serious army and furthermore it doesn't capture the province. It's great for damaging/killing weak forces, but again for a level 9 spell you expect some beef.

At the high spell levels there are a many spell effects that are potential game changers. This is just one.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

I agree with Pocus. Level 9 spells need to be really, really, powerful for the amount of research they take.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not just small armies... I've wiped out troops of over one hundred on a single province with one cast of the spell.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Look at the TOTAL cost of the spell and even strong armies will suffer BIG losses with two or three casts of the spell.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Compared with the cost this spell plus it doesn't place any of your commanders in danger. My point is that for single player games especially it removes the challenge against computer opponents.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As Pocus said, it's a Level 9 spell.

Also, the Wraith Lord doesn't do you much good since it is not under your control. I haven't used the spell often but judging my experience with the combat AI, he would probably just rout and disappear once the undead riders are banished. And even if the riders successfully beat the local defense, I think it'll only turn the province neutral. A nuaisance but not much more. There are worse things that can be done to your province with such high level spells.

Pale Rider is a lower level spell which can give you similar undead riders. And to me, a more practical spell.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Also remember that part of the cost is the turn it takes your caster to cast it instead of doing something else.

~Aldin

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

I have'nt had much success with it myself,hmmm, will try it again later. I did notice a) Against powerful armies, especially Marignon, it did squat. b) don't cast it in a province your attacking because it will target YOU not the ai http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif By the time i reach that point in research i've got Well of Misery going and am using Harvester of Sorrows (Metallica http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) and Legion of Wights with a dash of Plague and Black Death for flavor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

What? A 9th level spell overpowered? In all my PBEM and SP play in Dom1 and 2 I've never got to cast a 9th level spell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If I ever do I hope its seriously overpowered! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


cheers

Keir

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hehe. I know exactly what you mean. I'm always amazed at people enquiring into the specifics of wish or the like. Games are (or ought to be) long over before you can cast a level 9 - especially since most take serious empowerment. Just once for giggles I played a game in which the goal was to cast Wild Hunt, just because I was curious to see exactly what it did. I more or less stopped playing after the initial expansion, set research to conjuration, and hit end turn alot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The results of Wild Hunt are fun - a Lord of the Hunt with I belive 6 in Nature, and a couple in Earth goes around with a sqaud of Cu Sidhe and Wolves and randomly assasinates enemy preists http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif More effective than Admiral whats-his-name from the Ghost Ship Armada (a spell which could stand improvement) but not something you'd want to use in a competative situation...

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

>Games are (or ought to be) long over before you can cast a level 9 - especially since most take serious empowerment.

A long time ago I used to think like that. Then someone hit my army with Master Enslave. You can play a long way with little or no magic... but if someone gets some funky research done, they can ruin your day.

I'm not saying that everyone should take tons of magic. What I'm saying is that as a game goes long, you have to start worrying about the possibility that your enemies may whip some nasty stuff out of nowhere.

[ January 07, 2004, 01:42: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember also that even an astral 1 mage can cast master enslave if he has a full load of gems. The AI is pretty good about not wasting them on armies you can defeat easily either. Give him a spell focus or rune smasher for good measure to boost it's effectiveness.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

>Remember also that even an astral 1 mage can cast master enslave if he has a full load of gems.

Um...no.

Sadly it looks like gem usage is not explained well (at all) in the new rule book. At least I can't find it.

In Dom1 a mage can only spend one gem per level of skill. I appears that this holds true in Dom2 as well.

You need very potent mages to cast the serious spells. Beyond even the skill and gems you must account for fatigue from the spell. If a spell will take you over 200 fatigue it will not cast, since this would endanger the mages health.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then I'll amend my statement to say that an astral 6 void lord with a starshine skullcap and a ring of sorcery can cast master enslave.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

>Then I'll amend my statement to say that an astral 6 void lord with a starshine skullcap and a ring of sorcery can cast master enslave.


Sorry, try again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Such a mage would have the skill but would not be able to eat the fatigue... all 800 points worth. Since the spell needs 8 gems and the mage is skill-8 you have no way to lessen the problem.

You either need more skill or need a communion.
Communion is the most common way to pull of Master Enslave, as the fatigue cost is staggering.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never? Strange... I found games with shifting alliances to often Last longer. The Last game I played with 6 players on a small map had enough resources to research to 9, despite resource depleting global spells. It wasn't a terribly fast game, but it wasn't slow either, with constant warfare for me from before turn 20.

I'm curious, do you tend to play on small maps with permanent alliances? That's the only way I can imagine games consistently having such low research.

Bigger maps with more players inevitably Last long enough to see high level research, in my experience.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

I should clarify the previous post is for Dom 1. I'm not sure how research plays out in competitive practice for Dom 2, as waiting for the patch before considering joining a game.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Level Nine spells do tend to pound the AI. I have got Mechanical Militia up and running and it went from being a closely fought contest to a walk over. They seem to ignore the fact I have a very powerful force guarding each province and are losing all sorts of troops attacking “lightly” defended provinces. This might be a possible change to the AI code in calculating defense of enemy provinces…

As others have said, Level Nine spells should kick some serious tail. That the AI does not deal with it well is systemic to all AI problems. The greater the effect something has, the bigger the impact when the AI does not deal with it well. If the AI can not counter a level one spell, it is not a big deal. After all, a level one spell can only do so much. However, if the AI can not counter my level nine spell, the impact is huge. The programming problem is very similar in each case, but the visible problem is bigger.

On a different topic, I would argue against the idea that “a game should be over well before the level nine spells come out.” I would agree that this is the way it usually happens, but I wish we could have games where the higher level units and spells come into play. This is a common problem with 4X games, where everyone starts at zero and grows. SEIV had an option of starting at higher technology levels, which got these sorts of things into play from the start. While it did reduce the importance of research somewhat, it did allow you to play with all the toys. Perhaps an option for DOM III.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Saxon, you can play with fast research and rich world on a big map, this should allow you to hit levels 9 before the game end's.

also a game with shifting alliances can Last quite a long time in pbem. In fact I think I witnessed levels 8 or 9 spells in all my pbem games. Not in all fields and for all nations, by far, but still you should see them quite often (and often on the receiving end!)

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Games like "Poke in the Eye" where the independents are beefed up can also lead to longer games where research means much more. Even against AI's.
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion...2/Poke_Eye.map

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obviously you've never or rarely have used this spell. For the 75-something times I've casted this spell the wraith lord has never routed. In fact the wraith lord by himself has wiped out provinces after the rest have died.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The enemy province turns neutral then you march your troops into the territory which take the territory with little or no resistance. I don't know about you but having two or three provinces go neutral every turn is more then a small problem.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.


Also lets not forget people that 'master enslave' means you have to place your commander in the battefield... which means something could kill him.

---------

Graeme Dice... master enslave is a hundred times more difficult and dangerous to cast then ghost riders. Try and find a better match.

[ January 07, 2004, 16:13: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obviously you've never or rarely have Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.[/quote]
You're not including the cost of researching to level 9 as compared to the level required for pale riders, which is at least 1500 research points.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obviously you've never or rarely have used this spell. For the 75-something times I've casted this spell the wraith lord has never routed. In fact the wraith lord by himself has wiped out provinces after the rest have died.

Quote:

Originally posted by ywl: And even if the riders successfully beat the local defense, I think it'll only turn the province neutral. A nuaisance but not much more.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The enemy province turns neutral then you march your troops into the territory which take the territory with little or no resistance. I don't know about you but having two or three provinces go neutral every turn is more then a small problem.

Quote:

Pale Rider is a lower level spell which can give you similar undead riders. And to me, a more practical spell.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Twice the cost for half the attack force... yeah thats a plan.


Also lets not forget people that 'master enslave' means you have to place your commander in the battefield... which means something could kill him.

---------

Graeme Dice... master enslave is a hundred times more difficult and dangerous to cast then ghost riders. Try and find a better match. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I got hit with it in a game in Dom 1 and was not impressed. One necromancer or a few monks was enough to dispense them. The wraith lord didn't stay but there could be a change in the combat AI. I don't know.

Having two or three provinces going neutral is not good but as I said, if somebody got to Level 9 in a path, he could have done worse.

Matches:
"Horde from Hell" (30 Slaves) is not bad and you get to keep the troops afterwards.
"Send Horror" (15 Slaves) is powerful and it's one level lower. "Send Lesser Horror" (9 Slaves) is less potent but you can make it up with number.
"Arouse Hunger" (5 Gems) only gives you the lesser ghouls - but again, you can keep them. Ghouls are wonderful for defending seige.
"Call of the Wild" (15 Gems) is expensive and you can only target forest in Dom 2. But it's just a Level 3 spell.
"Tartarian Gate" (10 Gems): you can get a 100+ hps undead. If he wasn't feeble mind, you can even use a "Gift of Reason" to get his spell power. A better deal than harassing a single province to me.
"Fire from Afar" (10 Gems). I wasn't impressed until I once got hit by the AI. It looks like nothing but you can easily lose your important and expensive mages from this spell. And it's only Level 3 Evocation!
"Earth Attack" (5 Gems). Conjuration 8 and Earth 4. At the cost of 5 earth gems, you have like 80% probability of taking out one of your enemy's commander.

Ghost Rider might be a good deal for its cost. But at the requirements of Death 4, which is not exactly easy except for the death nations (Ermor, Ctis, et al), and Conjuration 9, it's very hard to be overpowered.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THIS Spell costs 6-TIMES as much ! Not even close to being in the same ballpark.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Another spell which is 3 times the cost of ghost riders... plus you need a mage with both astral and blood. Not to mention that this spell currently doesn't work !

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This spell also does not work in the current Version. So there is no way to judge its effect.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any province with a few points of defense and 4 archer-types could slaughter this spell.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">3-times as expensive and not nearly as powerful as ghost riders. PLUS ghost riders can attack water-based provinces... this one cannot. PLUS the little wolves usually flee once 3 or 4 die... the Ghost Riders NEVER retreat!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Twice the cost...The cost also requires a level_7 death mage...one great unit but can only attack the front line unless you use some spell or item to help him. Ghost Riders can attack anywhere!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Twice the cost as ghost riders and from my testing with a Level_6 fire mage it only kills about 9 units. Casting Ghost Riders twice on any province will kill lots more then 9 units with a province of 100 something units.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This targets only the commander... a good spell but is an assassination spell and ghost riders is an attack spell.
Ghost Rider might be a good deal for its cost. But at the requirements of Death 4, which is not exactly easy except for the death nations (Ermor, Ctis, et al), and Conjuration 9, it's very hard to be overpowered. [/QB][/quote]

[ January 07, 2004, 18:26: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

It's a Conj 9 spell. They're supposed to be pretty darn powerful.
It's not a terribly strong army, however, and unlike Army of the Dead and similar spells, it only hurts one province per cast. If you can find weak provinces to knock over using remote summons, summons which let you keep the units are much more powerful because you can set taxes to 200%, up province defence if you like, and move the survivors to attack nearby weak provinces. In addition, you can't really combine Ghost Riders with any other simultaneous remote summons, e.g. Army of the Dead, because they're not friendly... but summons like Army of the Dead, Horde from Hell, Imprint Souls, Call of the Winds etc are *stackable*. You can safely mass-cast these other summons into one province if you like, trash the locals, and then disperse to cause more damage in subsequent turns if it seems appropriate, or keep 'em as a single deep-penetration force.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THIS Spell costs 6-TIMES as much ! Not even close to being in the same ballpark.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">30 blood slaves is a lot easier to come by than 30 death gems, considering that 50+ a turn is achievable from a single 10K population province.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

You really cannot compare lesser summons to a level 9 spell. It's a whole different game when the high level stuff is researched.

Ghost Riders is a great spell and it does do good work. I doubt anyone is arguing that's it's weak.

However if you compare to other 9th level spells, you will find that the power level is not inappropriate.

We are talking about the same level of research that brings us effects such as;

Wish - Gems, Doom Horrors, you name it!
Utterdark - The whole worlds income reduced by 90%!
Flames from the Sky - Blows a chunk out of any army, anywhere.
Arcane Nexus - I can always use a few hundred astral gems every turn.


Yes Ghost Riders is strong and efficient, however we are talking about access to the most potent spells in creation.

The most capable death casters in the world can send an impressive undead force to strike at your lands? Sounds about right to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The only spell I have lost more to playing SP is Burden of Time. I overlooked this spell early but if you can find a bunch of researchers to shoot at or get lucky and take out an uber mage its an incredible bargain. I like this spell and mean to have some fun with it.

cheers

Keir

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So how many blood mages will you have wasting their time hunting for these blood slaves! And how many are able to sacrifice the income/resources/supplies from the 10K population province. Again what your saying does not come as easy you're guessing.

Plus those imps in NO WAY do as much damage as the ghost riders. Do some tests and you'll see... not to mention check the stats of those little imps.
__________________________


APoger

most of the spells you mentioned cannot target any province on the map... unlike ghost riders. Even flames from the sky will only kill a percentage... where ghost riders will destroy armies. Enemy armies will still be standing with five or seven casts of the spells you listed. With five or seven casts of ghost riders how many armies AND provinces would be lost... LOTS!
my point is nothing destroys armies faster for the cost... and any level_4 death mage can do it. (unlike other spells at or below the level)

[ January 07, 2004, 20:45: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never? Strange... I found games with shifting alliances to often Last longer.

I'm curious, do you tend to play on small maps with permanent alliances? That's the only way I can imagine games consistently having such low research.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tend to play with no alliances or team games. As the years goes on most PBEM games I'm involved in include a fair number of players I've known since a teenager but who now live far away. As we play many games together ruthless stab in back type games are not the best way to go. There is also generally a feeling that if the game is as good as over then let the lead player win and get onto the next game as most if not all of us don't not enjoy playing monster sized games at all. Once the game goes far enough it becomes a MM nightmare and this is true of other PBEM games we played before finding Dom.

While I do understand the phenomenon of shifting alliances keeping a game going for ever I have seldom experianced it even playing cut throat games of Stars! with total strangers. Maybe I'm just a bit to persuasive but I find with diplomacy the game ends much quicker. After over a decade of talking my to victory its been very refreshing to have no diplomacy and have to tough it out.

Another reason why games I'm in are shorter is the way I play. I play very fast and aggressive. In Stars! I regularily exceded the economic targets necessary to be a monster race and combined this with extremely aggressive play generally attacking before my opponents thought it was possible. I would often get responses to my warnings I was looking to attack someone of the flavour of "you are an idiot - nobody wants an early war as it ruins their economy so sod off" - the following turn my nicely hidden fleet jumps into their HW which vanishes in a blaze of nucleur weapons. That is generally the end of discussion with that player. I tend to end games quick and thats why most of the games I am in don't reach level 9 magic.

In Stars! I never used Nubians and many players made commments to me similar to yours Jasper - how come? Because the game ended before then.

I've played enough games (I've been a multi-player addict for over 25 years) with a wide variety of settings and different Groups of players that I've come to the conclusion that this is generally the way it works when I'm playing. *shrugs*

Cheers

Keir

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

>AND MOST IMPORTANTLY THIS SPELL DOESN'T EVEN WORK.

Hordes from Hell does work.


>most of the spells you mentioned cannot target any province on the map... unlike ghost riders.

My comparisons are to 9th level spell power, not as specific effects such as "can be targeted on any province". By the same token can I state that Ghost Riders is inferior to Arcane Nexus becuase it creates zero gems? Of course not! This is simply a poor argument.


>Even flames from the sky will only kill a percentage... where ghost riders will destroy armies. Enemy armies will still be standing with five or seven casts of the spells you listed.


Large armies will shrug off Ghost Riders, when on the other hand FFTS gets more powerful as the target gets larger. Ghost Riders is better versus smaller targets and FFTS is better versus larger targets. They are different tools for different times, and both are very potent tools. Dismissing FFTS because it only does a percentage of damage is sheer ignorance.


>my point is nothing destroys armies faster for the cost...


Something has to be the best, and frankly when all things are considered it's debatable. As above FFTS is often a better choice. If I summon a Doom Horror with a Wish, it costs more, but I keep it, and as such can use it over and over again, potentially becoming more efficient than Ghost Riders. Army of the Dead leaves me with the province and an army... so if the battle doesn't require a wraith, wouldn't Army of the Dead be a better idea?


>and any level_4 death mage can do it. (unlike other spells at or below the level)

and level_4 earth mages (with Construction-9) can make Iron Dragons... which can take out small armies and don't leave after the battle.


Again, Ghost Riders is great, but insisting that it is somehow totally superior to everything else is silly. There are plenty of potent spells.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't forget that any non-undead armies will have a pretty hard time even hitting your troops with attack and precision around 3.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Apoger... yes there is plenty of potent spells.

The iron dragon spell takes 25 earth gems. (5 times the cost)

Flames from Afar has the possibility of doing more damage... but only if the province is JAMMED with at least 250 units and its a powerful fire mage.

MY POINT... is that for the cost and mage level it is way too powerful.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't forget that any non-undead armies will have a pretty hard time even hitting your troops with attack and precision around 3. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Utterdark... this is a global enchantment where first you know the spell can be casted successfully without failing because others are in place. Also if you use all those death gems for the ghost rider spell instead of casting this global enchantment... HOW MUCH damage would be done... LOTS !

[ January 07, 2004, 21:35: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">About 10 blood 1 mages with sanguine dousng rods, at a lab, along with two tribal kings with full complements of slaves. For mictlan that's a total cost of 1090 gold. The upkeep will be less than 70 gold per turn IMCAC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A 10K pop province provides an income of around 40-50. With 100 troops patrolling you don't lose much of that income either.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure the imps don't do as much damage. They also aren't a level 9 spell, and haven't had ten's of turns of research applied to get to them. They also stick around afterwards and can be grouped to continually take low defense provinces turn after turn.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

NTJedi --
Repeating your claims doesn't make them any less wrong.
And Fires From Afar is indeed quite deadly; unlike Ghost Riders, it can even kill mages busily researching inside a fortress, at a FAR earlier stage in the game. It may even have a bias to hit commanders; I've seen a very early cast send out nine bolts, of which perhaps six or seven ignored the patrolling units and instead killed researchers. Neat trick.
You also don't seem to grasp the value of keeping units. Would you play Pythium with just Gladiators? They're remarkably cheap if you ignore the fact that they leave after fighting one battle.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Strange, I have always felt that Ghost Riders was a rather weak lvl 9 spell, thus the low cost. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Send Horror can be more devastating, especially with some previous horrormarks.

Ghost rider are just undead horses. They get banished like that. Fortunately they come with a wraith. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

>The iron dragon spell takes 25 earth gems. (5 times the cost)

Yes, but can be used more than once, hence you can't judge it the same way as a one shot spell like Ghost Riders.


>Flames from Afar has the possibility of doing more damage... but only if the province is JAMMED with at least 250 units and its a powerful fire mage.

A> Armies of 250+ are common in multiplayer by the time FFTS is available.

B> The benefit of FFTS goes beyond the troops. It allows you to knock out commanders/mages with those troops, which is very hard to do otherwise.


>MY POINT... is that for the cost and mage level it is way too powerful.


My point is that it shares a position of greatness along side of other incredible spells.

I understand that you used the spell to abuse the computer AI. There are plenty of ways to do that. Try using it in a real multiplayer game. You'll find that by the time players are tossing about Ghost Riders, there are already dozens of other potent and pressing things that also have to be delt with. Ghost Riders is one of those things, but is far from THE thing to worry about.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Of course I see the value of keeping units... this spell is a perfect example!

With ghost riders NONE of my units or commanders are in danger plus the enemy is guaranteed to lose lots of units and/or army for a small price. (with the rare exception that frost/fire dome is in place)

Do you have any idea of how strong of an army is required to survive an attack from these guys. Even an army of 15 trolls with 10 archers would still take big losses... especially if they retreat because of the wraith lord.


AGAIN the cost of the spell compared with the power is way too good.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This spell doesn't work... so I can't compare the two. A mage also needs both astral and blood magic to cast the spell. Looking forward to the patch tho.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes ghost riders can be banished but they are very fast and are quickly able to do damage in battle. Most provinces way in the back don't have a priest or two just sitting around. And unless that priest has at least 25 units in front of him... that priest is dead and the province is lost.


-----------------

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apoger... casting ghost riders 5 times will easily do more damage then the lifespan of one iron dragon unless you're storming a castle.
An Iron dragon also requires a commander which would be at risk of dying when going into battle.

[ January 07, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oops, Sorry!

True about the rear provinces, but there are rarely any troops there either (making the attack a temporary loss of a province). Priests and armies are often moving together.

15 trolls? Does not sound very mighty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

At higher research costs armies might be larger at the time when you reach lvl 9 research. Try playing around with alternate costs a bit. It might very well improve how you feel the game should evolve.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

>Do you have any idea of how strong of an army is required to survive an attack from these guys.


A small screen of HI, a handful of priests, one mage casting paralyze. That should handle it with minimal losses.


>Even an army of 15 trolls with 10 archers would still take big losses... especially if they retreat because of the wraith lord.


15 Trolls and 10 Archers?
That's not an army. By the time 9th level spells are in play that's a nuisance raiding force.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

NTJedi --
You've never seen what an Iron Dragon can do, then, as an accessory to battlefield slaughter.
Hell, even I've had a mere Wailing Lady with marble breastplate, boots of quickness, black heart and luck talisman get over 100 kills by itself against the AI. I've equipped a Vampire Lord to the point that it routed out an army of 1600 AI units in a single battle, alone. The ability to keep, and if helpful equip, units is very handy.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tested and didn't find it that impressive. I cast one on an indie with 50 light or heavy infantries, no priest. All the riders got minced within ten turns. The Wraith Lord fight on and finally scared away the others but most units escaped alive.

If you cast more than one and cut off the retreating path, that will be a good use of the spell. But otherwise, one or two doesn't look impressive to me.

And Death Level 4 is *not* a low requirement. There are two items to increase death, other than the artifacts: Skull Staff (10 gems) and Skull Mask (20 gems). Skull Mask is expensive, so to use this spell in large number, you basically need access to Death 3 mage. Only two nations (regular C'tis and Ashen Ermor) have that. Even Jotun and Broken Ermor need the right random pick!

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Taqwus
an Iron Dragon means you place one or more of your commanders in danger just for going into battle.
Now if you cast Ghost Riders 5 times (same cost as your Iron Dragon) it will EASILY do more damage than your one Iron Dragon and no commanders are in danger. (except for the rare case where the player has a lab and fire/frost dome casted)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This was an example as for a strong back province defense... of course it's not front line.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THANK_YOU ! The point is the province is no longer protected and any enemy which owned the province is no longer collecting incoming/resources... your troops if they were set to attack now take the place without conflict unless another army was also moving to the location. Now cast the spell 5 times... your enemy just lost 5 provinces... same cost as one iron dragon. That's a good chunk of incoming and men lost... more damage then one iron dragon can do.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Different spell requiring 4 death and 4 blood to cast plus 44 blood slaves. Lots more difficult and expensive to cast... thus in a completely different Category.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The loss of a province could mean 50 gold or more for that turn... even if the spell is casted only once every turn... that adds up fast.
plus a possible loss of gem income from mg sites.
plus the player has to spend a turn for a commander and maybe an army to recover the location. Men which could/should be supporting/patrolling the front line or castle.

[ January 07, 2004, 23:56: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Welcome back NT, glad to see your rinse, wash, repeat tactic of agruing hasn't changed any.

Anyway, why not have 5 casts of riders attack an iron dragon or otherness, or whatever other spell you don't feel is up to the challenge. Seems the best way to actually tell if they are balanced no?

Well remember also that to get off 5 riders on the same turn you need 25 death gems (not hard at all) and 5 death 4 mages (now that's a bit more tricky for many races).

Also will not domes effect the riders spell? Any other summoned will just walk in and ignore the dome.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

I'm saying that for only 5 gems this spell seems too powerful.

Run some tests...


I've seen enemy AI and human player armies with 120 men having lost the battle to this single cast of a spell. The lost province means loss of gold, units, province defense and maybe gems.

[ January 08, 2004, 00:07: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">5 casts of ghost riders on a province which has only one iron dragon. I seriously doubt the iron dragon would live. Remember the iron dragon also places a commander in danger another cost not seen by ghost riders except for the rare case of a fire/frost dome.

A better test is create an average army and see which does more damage.... one iron dragon or 5 casts of ghost riders.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Others were using spells as a comparison which were 5 times as expensive... thus I had to show the effect of 5 times for ghost riders thats why.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check my previous Posts you will see I've already wrote about the frost/fire domes... which require a lab for that province.

[ January 08, 2004, 00:20: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well then, since no-one is agreeing with you, you're in the ideal position to exploit the imbalance and win lots of games, aren't you?

Alternatively, you might not enjoy a greater success rate than expected statistically, in which case you'd have to admit you're wrong, so forget I spoke http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I guess my point is that the spell clearly isn't breaking the game at the moment (else you'd be getting more support) so until some supportive evidence (game results) shows up, there's not a lot to be said beyond the dogged repetition of the claim.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never? Strange... I found games with shifting alliances to often Last longer.

I'm curious, do you tend to play on small maps with permanent alliances? That's the only way I can imagine games consistently having such low research.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[snip description of aggresive play]
I've played enough games (I've been a multi-player addict for over 25 years) with a wide variety of settings and different Groups of players that I've come to the conclusion that this is generally the way it works when I'm playing. *shrugs* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's what I guessed. Considering you play so aggresively it's not much of a surprise your games are short: You either win quick, or you lose quick.

IMHO this seems to color your perceptions of the benefit of blood magic, or higher level magic in general.

[ January 08, 2004, 11:34: Message edited by: Jasper ]