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Game balance suggestions.
Ok, since everyone has probably spent few sleepless nights with the full Version already they've probably noticed some game balance problems that need to be, if not fixed, at least noticed. So, please post them here. Shrug, I suppose I got a few, too.
1. Give more medium infantry strategic move of 2. Okay Pythium legionnaires and Arco hyapists already got this but for example pan satyrs lack the ability (which is crippling for the pan as a nation as they _need_ to be able to move fast) and wear lighter armor and certainly have more speed and stamina than that aforementioned. Heavy infantry is still a no-brainer but I'd easily consider giving up some prot for that strategic move so please give us the choice. 2. This has been discussed earlier but I'll still bring it up: Tune Order/Luck balance. Reduce the income to 2-3%(and possibly make it kill off some unrest in case someone wants to overtax) and eliminate the modifier to random event frequency or something like that. Just anything to make options other than order/misfortune viable. 3. Paralyze and Mind BLast seem to be a bit broken. They're slightly too hard to resist and the paralyze time is far too long. I have yet to see anyone snap out of paralysis (prior to dying, that is). 4. Elemental magic seems to have gotten the shaft in Dom2. Water still got little going for it. Removing the fire requirement for acid spells and adding some decent amphibious summons and items would go a long way in actually making it useful. I recall that the devs were hesitant to add new spells/units but I hope that doesn't include the requirements. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
My two cents :
1) Mictlan as well might deserve to have their strats move looked at... 2) I think the Turmoil/Luck combo is also playable for nation that are not too dependant on gold, and quite fun. But those scales seem tilted in that it is better to go to a 3/-3 or -3/3 combo (for 0 points) than anything else (be it 0/0 or 3/3). In particular, the 3/3 order/luck combo is very expensive, and barely better than a 3/-3 order/misfortune. Perhaps the Gold bonus on the order scale need to be tuned, but I think the real problem is the events reduction power of that scale. 3 order is just too powerful at stopping random events, totally negating the effect of luck -3 3) I don't know, I have never tried these 4) No opinion on the subject |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
I know I already mentioned this before, but please... some kind of special regeneration for pretenders that allow them to cure their battle afflictions (maybe an special order "heal wounds" that gives a 10% Chance to lose a battle affliction).
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Re: Game balance suggestions.
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+3 Order / -3 Luck = 121 gold -3 Order / +3 Luck = 79 gold That is crippling to a turmoil/luck nation. I would suggest reducing the gold effect of Order to +/- 4% and adding a +/- 2% to the Luck scale. Maybe they should make Pangaea immune to turmoil tax reduction the way Ulm smiths are immune to drain. [ January 09, 2004, 13:22: Message edited by: Catquiet ] |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
Well it might make sense that luck dominion adds to gold income. Even the taxcollector gets lucky I guess, but doesn't that make your citizens unlucky? But the present big "bonus" of a Turmoil/Luck combination is the chance of getting a very good streak of random events. I often use this combo and while it's a real gamble I often get a lot of good effects. Then earthquake/hurricane/vinemen invasion strikes my major production/gold province. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Perhaps it would be better to make the random events slightly less random so that only a very unlucky dominion often sees the major disasters and only a strong luck dominion gets the best advantages more than once or twice? |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
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+3 Order / -3 Luck = 121 gold -3 Order / +3 Luck = 79 gold That is crippling to a turmoil/luck nation. I would suggest reducing the gold effect of Order to +/- 4% and adding a +/- 2% to the Luck scale. Maybe they should make Pangaea immune to turmoil tax reduction the way Ulm smiths are immune to drain. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some nations can get by with the 79 gold. -3 order / +3 luck gives some nice gold events (though not enough to compensate), and a very steady flow of magical gems (albeit of unpredictable type), which can compensate for less gold. What is more, the more provinces you have, the more random events you get (I think), so it does grows up with your empire. |
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[ January 09, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Windreaper ] |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
Has anyone listed those events that are only available in certain luck scales?
I seem to recall getting hit by earthquakes and 1/4 population floods even when I took luck. These seem to me to be the worst events. I realize there are some major luck events that you can only have with extreme luck scale, but really I think reducing the number of very severe bad events with even luck-1 but especially at luck-2 or higher would go a long way to make luck more viable. The barbarian pillage some of us think shouldn't have a pillage effect if you kill the barbarian invaders. Knights are really just a nuisance unless they happen early in the game to a critical province. In some ways, taking bad luck is like taking death dominion. You lose important parts of your empire over time, never to be regained, at a variable rate. Well...you will anyway with common random events...I guess bad luck just accelerates the process. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
In my opinion (and mine only http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), the luck scale is simply sub-par to the order scale.
Even with luck+3, you only have a 80% chance of a random event being a good one... that means that every fifth event is a bad one. Since bad events are usually much worse than average good events, I usually go for order scale to reduce the amount of events at all happening to me - I am more scaerd of floods killing of my population than looking forward to getting a random magic item and a couple of gold for free, as well in early as in late game. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
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- two emigration events (-20% pop), one in my capital - two events that took 50 gold each - quite a few hurricanes, but some of those I suspect are gifts from the AI's - 6 attacks by independants on my provinces (dark vines, barbarians, vampires,...), 4 of which succeeded. - Various bad omens, growing unrest, and lack of faith - Two raids on my slave dungeons to steal my virgins http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif On the other hand, I was gifted with two labs, one fortress, 600 gold, an average of two handfuls of magic gems per turn, three + 5 province defense, and one gold site (arena I think). Oh, and an animist as well. I am quite happy with the results : My events are mostly good, and while the worst one was harsh (that emigration in my capital is costing me 30 gold/turn for the rest of the game), some of the good ones were very good (+500 gold, arena site, free hill fortress, free labs). Plus, that extra gem income is coming quite steadily and usefuly... [ January 09, 2004, 17:15: Message edited by: General Tacticus ] |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
I think that like alot of other things in this game the Luck scale is something that either fits a persons mode of play or it doesnt. I like Luck but the events can swing you back and forth alot. Some people like to play this game with long running well thought out strategys and plans. Luck is not something they would like. Im not so good at planning so I do better with quickly making use of random changes in luck both Pro and Con.
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Re: Game balance suggestions.
Hmm, I got some additions, too.
Devs, please put Clam of Pearls and Staff of Storms to Const 6 and consider increasing the cost of the clam. I hope I don't have to explain the staff but the clam probably needs an explanation. By converting all your gems into water (easiest with water nations, naturally) and making solely clams and again turning the astral back to water will get you an astral income of over 100 by turn 40. Couple this with concentrated research and you'll be casting Wish per turn from turn ~40 on. This strategy has been used extensively in finnish PBEM games and has pretty much always resulted in a win. We've been trying to bug the occasional dev at #dominions with the issue but it'd appear that it's still unchanged in Dom2. |
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Or allow priests to use the Call God command to heal living pretenders of one affliction once 40 priest levels have accumulated. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
The Clam of Pearls strategy is a key one. Though perhaps it should be toned down. Maybe if you could create a maximum number or change the resource cost of the gems. Though in consideration the Fever Fetish should be adjusted as well as the potential is still there to abuse; but not the key path.
The Staff of Storms has (in Dom2) always been overpowered. It's way to easy to totally negate archers. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
>the clam probably needs an explanation.
>By converting all your gems into water (easiest with water nations, naturally) and making solely clams and again turning the astral back to water will get you an astral income of over 100 by turn 40. This doesn't sound like a good strategy to me. In order to have a clam income of 100 you need 100 clams. The cost of 100 clams is 1000 water gems. Lets be generous and say that 30% of your gem income is water, 30% is astral, and 40% is other. That means the construction of 100 clams cost somewhere around 2500 gems. This strategy includes waiting 40 turns to use gems while you horde, and won't accumulate 2500 gems in return for an additional 25 turns. The way I see it the clam strategy doesn't start turning a profit until about turn 65, and takes quite a bit of dedication. Is this really a good strategy? What am I missing? |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
>The Staff of Storms has (in Dom2) always been overpowered. It's way to easy to totally negate archers.
The SOS on the other hand... should be a unique artifact. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
You don't let key parts of your empire growth and maintainance (and domination) falter because of it.
The reason for the clam strategy is you can Wish every other turn by turn 40. If you Last that long, guess what? It's hard for other nations to cope with a Wish every other turn (or every turn, depending on your other gem incomes). The clams pay for themselves by turn 25, making 2 clams a turn I believe, I broke it down to Sunray and I don't remember the exact numbers. Not quite 100 Clams by turn 40, but 75 is more than possible. The potential should be obvious. Whether or not you consider it cost effective is whether or not the game allows you to do it and you arn't desperate for gems to maintain your growth. And if you really want to, your first wish can be for gems. Edit: Yes this strategy does have weaknesses. As should be apparent, but the application of it has worked more often than not. [ January 10, 2004, 04:09: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
>The clams pay for themselves by turn 25, making 2 clams a turn I believe
2 clams per turn takes 20 water gems. If you are converting astrals it's 40 astrals. It would take 40 clams to produce 40 astrals. Do you really anticipate having built 40 clams by turn 25? From another tact, lets assume that by some miracle you do have 40 clams. That took 400 water gems (lets not even consider conVersion rates). That 400 gems could have been put to very good use... lets say 13 Murdering Winters, 200 Winter Wolves, 400 Sea trolls, or a feeble 140ish if using Sea kings Court (but you do get commanders that way). Those 400 water gems could have been put to great use capturing provinces and eliminating enemies. Those extra provinces will produce gems. So this path gets you combat power, economics, gems, and helps remove enemies. Now I can see how, over time, the clams could pile up an advantage when used with Wish. However it takes a good long while, and you must be counting on some wonderfully non-aggressive enemies that allow you to get away with it. Frankly, I wouldn't count on such benevolence from my enemies. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
I've done it plenty of times with S&A. And yes, it has a downside.
But if you didn't notice, I said if it doesn't impede your expansion. You're looking at it only from a numerical point of view as opposed to a by turn point of view. And it's important to note the conVersion of Astrals that you get from the Clams to Water. That's 20 Pearls. Here is the exerpt from my email detailing part of an old clam strategy. Turn 4 (Usually when you can Research Construction 2) 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 1 CoP = 1 Astral Gem. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 2 CoP = 2 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 3 CoP = 3 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 4 CoP = 4 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 5 CoP = 5 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 6 CoP = 6 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP. Now it's Turn 10. You have made 21 Astral Pearls, which alchemizes to 10 Water Gems. Total Investment = 50 Water Gems (- 10 from Alchemized Pearls) Turn 11 - Turn 20 7 CoP = 7 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 8 CoP = 8 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 9 CoP = 9 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP. 10 CoP = 10 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP 11 CoP = 12 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP 13 CoP = 14 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP 15 CoP = 16 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP 17 CoP = 17 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP 19 CoP = 19 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP 21 CoP = 21 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP Turn 20 = 133 Astral Gems. 220 Water Gems. Alchemized Pearls = 66 Water Gems. Total Investment 154 Water Gems. I may have been off by turn 25, but it's still something you can look at. It has worked for me both trying the "Wish" strategy and also using the pearls for other things. And not with having complacent neighbors, more often than not I was doing quite well having fought the entire time; but when turn 40+ comes around, most have a large number of gems/research, supercombatants etc, so having access to a high end gem income a definite advantage that they potentially don't. Like I said it only works with certain nations in certain circumstances, but it's not 'unthinkable'. Maybe if Water had a better selection of combat oriented spells, or gem uses it would be more of a 'hit' in my mind. But I consider Water weaker than most of the other paths. Even though it contains Quickness and a few other key spells, I'm talking about things that can pivot the game. There are a few but far from most other paths. Like I said the Clam strategy has it's weaknesses, like fielding and keeping alive 'carriers', having a decent water income to begin with and getting a few sites searched. This strategy is only really viable with an already strong nation or one that doesn't need to rely on water summons or gem income. Pythium, Arco, etc. Edit: With the above example even if you only make 1 clam a turn (Not costing you any more gems, because it is paying for itself) from turn 20 -40 and end up wiuth 41 Clams at turn 40 your total investment for a 41 Astral Gem Income is 154 water gems. [ January 10, 2004, 10:20: Message edited by: Zen ] |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
>1 CoP = 1 Astral Gem. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
>2 CoP = 2 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP >3 CoP = 3 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP I'm missing something here. Yes I see that X CoP = X pearls... but where are the 10 water gems comming from every turn in order to increase the number of CoPs (by turn 4)? Are you assuming a water gem income of 10 water gems on turn 4? That's a pretty big assumption for most nations. Furthermore there are plenty of useful things to do with such an income. Again I understand that the clam ramp-up can pay off eventually, but I fail to see how it is a "broken" strategy, let alone a particulaly good strategy (IMHO). It's a very long term investment that ties up valuable resources. If you are going to convince me that this is a broken stragegy you will have to be more convincing. |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
I need some help understanding this too Zen. From the clam's description it looks like it only produces a pearl each "season" - every three turns. Also, don't you have to have the clam equipped on a commander, and only one per commander? Cheap researchers could fit much of the bill, but even then the upkeep cost will be pretty severe to have 100 leaders with clams.
What am I missing? ~Aldin |
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You can have 2 Clams per commander. If you give each 'Defending Only' Commander one Clam you can get a HUGE Astral income by mid game. Sammual |
Re: Game balance suggestions.
Yes, not from just that source, and you can alchemize. Depending on what you play, but with S&A it's not uncommon to get 1 to 2 gem events a turn. Also (again with S&A) searching yields quite a few gems.
Obviously it was used in Dom1 by at least a few people so it isn't totally discredited eh Alex? And I didn't say it was a broken one, Windreaper seems to feel so. I wasn't crying for the nerf stick, just that it's very easy to get a non-provincial gem income with them. You wanted to understand why and I was trying to show you. I found it gives, like I said, fairly decent returns with just 20 turns. As most of the time a 21 Astral Gem Income for 154 Water gems is a good trade in my mind. But I'm not biased towards Sea Trolls (because of mage casting time), Winter Wolves (unless I'm playing a Cold Nation) and saving up for Murdering Winters. [ January 10, 2004, 16:19: Message edited by: Zen ] |
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>Obviously it was used in Dom1 by at least a few people so it isn't totally discredited eh Alex?
Just because something is used, and even used to good effect does not mean that it's efficient. Nor did I ever say that this technique has been totally discredited. You are reading more into what I wrote than was written. I stated clearly that I understand that the CoP ramp-up works. What I question is the time and effort spent versus other applications of the needed resources. >I found it gives, like I said, fairly decent returns with just 20 turns. I'd say a CoP takes 20 turns to pay it's own costs. After that it provides an income. Tying up resources for 20 turns in order to invest for future income does work. However I wonder if that investment spent is better used towards shorter term goals such as expansion and enemy elimination. >As most of the time a 21 Astral Gem Income for 154 Water gems is a good trade in my mind. It woud take the clams 14.6 turns to pay back those 154 water gems. Thats 15 turns beyond the 25ish that it took to make them. So it's about turn 40 that this set-up starts to turn "profit". In the meantime 154 water gems could have been 72 winter wolves. That's a respectable amount of firepower. More than enough to help acquire many provinces. More provinces is more income in gold and gems. Those water gems represtent attack strength, defense strength, and expansion potential. Those are hard things to justify giving up for a very long term investment. IMHO. [ January 10, 2004, 16:56: Message edited by: apoger ] |
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Boy, it would sure suck to have someone nail you with Fires from Afar if you tried this! The threat of that would make me reluctant to try this with anyone but Atlantis or R'lyeh.
It is definitely a long term investment, although Water gems don't really have compelling uses early on and the underwater races are more assured of surviving until turn 40 than most. I think Pearl Clams are usefull enough that I build them when I have water gems sitting around, but I don't see it being worth the oppurtunity cost transmuting gems to water in order to forge them. |
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Do alchemy on pearls (as suggested) - and the cost of each clam becomes too high. 20 pearls = 1 clam = 1 pearl a turn = 20 turns for a clam to pay back its initial price in pearls. Even less tempting with other gems as it's 4 to 1. That's just too long investment to try after turn 20 I think as not even underwater nations are that safe... Still I understand const2 could be considered too low so no harm in making clam actually produce a pearl once per season, not once per turn - that's quite reasonable. |
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I think the cost is correct now.
It's just cheap enough that I consider using them, but expensive enough that it's not a clearly superior choice. IMO. |
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