Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

Well, greetings everybody.

I am currently trying to think out a decent strategy for the 'Last of the Tuatha' Man theme and will be thankful for any advise more experienced players can give.
For now, I am taking a divine serpent pretender for better scales - nature magic only (lvl6 usually), turmoil-luck, production and growth for more gold, dominion strength to recruit more of these Sidhe. Then I go for Conjuration magic 3 to Call the Winds and patrol my provinces to get rid of unrest.
Then... Well, then I'm a little bit stuck. I was thinking about researching lightning bolt and aim spells for my commanders, then going for the Contact Draconians to get some nice free summons. But draconians seem to be actually very bad troops because they rout after but a few rounds of combat in most cases (orders to hold and attack rear).
Sure, Tarrasques are awesome, but it's a lvl9, hard to research even with magic scale of the Tuatha.
So for now I've found useful:
1) Early expansion with longbows, of course.
2) Bards with Ivy Crowns raising Vine Ogres. Simple, yet effective.
3) Tuatha with some good protective items and a staff of storms. Being protected from lightning, he casts wrathful skies at the beginning of combat and watches the enemy die. Usually I give him some Vine Ogres, they've got alot of HP and will probably outLast an enemy. Later on Thunder Ward can be used. Main problem is to keep the Tuatha from spending all the air gems in one combat - I have to give him an 'attack' order in the end of stack, which is dangerous. Is there any other solution?
4) Couatl can be used to dispel most troublesome global enchantments.
5) Tuatha with an Air pick and a Winged Helm can cast Wind Ride to effectively assasinate enemy commanders.

For now, that's all. Comments, ideas and suggestions are really welcome. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

1. Yay
2. You'd need a Tuatha with either a random pick or an item to summon vine ogres. Vinemen, otoh, aren't so much worth it, imo. They can be used effectively with poison clouds or fouls vapors , however (whichever you prefer to use).
3. Shrug
4. It's too high up in the tree to be counted on, imo.
5. True. Can also cast Dome of Solid Air, which will prove to be damn useful in the long run.
6. I'd consider ditching some scales and getting a decent blessing (water 9 comes into mind since all your mages are sacred, too). I personally think that man gets good value for the water 9 blessing.

[ January 09, 2004, 14:17: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

Well you seem to have got things well covered already.

Tuatha commanders are excellent pointmen for your armies thanks to their free mirrorimage. Put them in front to attract arrows while massing longbows on the flanks. If you can research mistform and chainlightning quickly this combination will clear out all the independant forces in a hurry.

Draconians are not a good summon for army support. They are excellent skirmishers though and can really tie up an opponent if you manage to gain a foothold behind the frontlines.

Armies of bowmen versus armies of summoned beasts is a though choice to make. Vineogres will go down very fast to friendly fire. Heck when it comes to longbows just about anything will go down fast with an arrow in the back. Especially if you don't group the bowmen into smaller units. Vineogres are immune to poison though so you can create a "Toxic Avenger" army that plays on that strength (bogbeasts, breath of the dragon etc).

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

1) Pretender magic / bless effects
All sidhe are holy, i.e. solders, commanders and "real" mages may benefit from blessing effects.

Nature-6 will only get you a rather weak berserk-2, however, what does not that much good to your holy elite troops:

It will make them go berserk when wounded, while lowering their defense. You really don't wont that, as defense is their strength, while protection is only adequate ...

Daoine Sidhe (?sp?)
They are medium infantry with javelins and relativly high defense, but medium encumbrance as well. The attack bonus from bers-2 does not help them much (have 12 already), is not figured in for javelin throwing but lowers their 15 defense to a meager 13.
Better look for something that beefs up their defense even more (water-4 or water-6) and makes shure it doesn't drop much from fatigue (Javelin throwing doesn't count vs. fatigue, though. earth-4)
Defense-17 or -18 combined with glamour makes them pretty much unhitable by standard troops, unless they have to endure multiple attacks per round. Getting them to 2 stars of experience shouldn't be too hard, what will result in defense-19 or -20 .. few possibilities to top with on normal troops.


Commanders
.. will benefit nicely from reinvigoration, too. Plus they start out with even higher defense and reach 20+ easily.
Make a Sidhe Lord your prophet asap - fanaticism will take care of any moral problems your troops will encounter.

To make the fights shorter (less chance some enemy gets in a lucky hit, or fatigue wears your troops down), there are 2 options:

Make them hit harder (blood-4). As they have STR12 already, you may need blood-6, though, for a noticable difference.

Or make them scary (death-4). Found this especially effective - remember to set them to "fire nearest" enemy, and the approching squads will have suffered from Javelins when going into melee. Which in my experience Lasts for 2 turns only, after which the enemy front line routes. Even a second line of attackers isn't much of a problem, as fatigue is still rel. low on the own troops.

.. more about spells etc. later ...

Stefan

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

My bad - sure, bards can summon vinemen only. I am still not sure if it's worth the gems. I was thinking about the default theme Avalon crones, of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
*edit* : well, giving a nature bonus weapon is an option.

For the longbowmen, I mostly use them with armored troops who don't suffer much casualties from their arrows, or in the beginning of the game (infantry gets order to guard commander far from the enemy. Most independents rout before engaging in melee.) Another way is to have longbows snipe enemy archers - if there will be any, problem with friendly fire is solved.
Bog beasts sound interesting, but who besides pretender god can summon them?..

[ January 09, 2004, 14:51: Message edited by: Shuji Doyama ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

quick notes. Dont forget that you are geared toward frequent use of "Call of Winds" both in magic and in gems. Move the units to another commander for patrol and use the leader for equiped kamikaze attacks.

And with such a strong sneaking military using CotW to soften or test a province that your sneak-army can mop up works well.

Those Cu hounds are cheap, sacred, and fast. Putting them with a monk on the flanks is handy. Have the the monk bless them and sned them on their way into the rear.

Vine men do not a fighting force make but as fodder and BIG morale boosters they can save you alot of cost replacing other frontline troops. Mix at a ratio of 1/3 or even 1/2

Longbows are good for fire at archers. Slingers are good for fire at closest or cavalry. Slingers are cheap and do cause rout. In fact an army of vinemen backed by slingers can be a cheap handy wall to put other units behind. Not a great army, but a handy one.

Always put archers/slingers on flanks. Less damage from friendly fire.

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

You've covered most spells. But don't forget "Protection", 3 Alteration, 1 Nature. It's castable even by your Bards and Sidhe Champion, making them more useful in battle.

And as another has said, Nature 6 is not very useful for the blessed effect. So, either go all the way to Nature 9 or just stop at Nature 4 or 5. Unfortunately, The Tuatha Man does need some help on Nature (how ironical http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . So, I guess having a Nature 4 Pretender is not necessarily a bad idea. I don't think too many people has looked at it, but the White Bull seems to be a good pretender. After getting personal regeneration, (Enchantment 3), he's quite powerful.

But if you want to go for diversity, adding some Fire with Moloch or Death with Prince of Death is not bad.

If you're going for Conjuration, don't forget the Firebolg (Conj 5) and Lamia Queen (Conj 6). They're both good bargains.

Also, if you go for Chaotic scale, I don't think you'd have gold to hire a lot of Tuatha (and Sidhe). Take that into account.

That's all I can think of for now.

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

Do a search on Tuatha and you should find some idea's Jasper and I were thjrowing about in a trhead awhile back.

Basically the key to Tuatha IMO is bless effects. The Daone Sidhe need more defense to be really tough and water9 is alos good for your mages so this is what I tried. Nature will make your mages go berserk when wounded and charge into combat - scary.

I like the Cu Sidhe alot. Part of this is thematic softeness the other is that they can really speed expansion. If you find you lose them at first play with their deployment so that they do not get drawn into the main part of the battle but instead cause havoc on the flanks.

Mass Protection is an amazing spell for anyone with adequate nature and low natural armour (ie excluding items) and should be seriously considered.

Have fun

Keir

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

After more testing I've come to agree with Keir that the Water 9 blessing is better than Fire 9 for Tuatha (a main point of our discussion in the thread he mentions). I think I must have had bad luck with my initial Water 9 test, or done something stupid. Moreover the benefit of +4 defense increases as your troops gain experience.

Still, Fire 9 + Dom 6 is much cheaper to get with the Moloch than Water 9 + Dom 6 is with a Blue Dragon...

As an aside, I think it's better to send your Sidhe into battle, rather than casting evocations. They're effective, hard to hurt, and you won't get any friendly fire. Barkskin and Mist Form help greatly here.

Also, someone else mentioned putting your Doaine Sidhe in the front to attract arrows. IMHO this is a very bad idea. True, their glamour helps a bit, but for their cost they're still vulnerable, especially due to their low protection. Something cheaper with higher protection works better IMHO, as you really don't want to lose any Sidhe during expansion.

[ January 10, 2004, 05:37: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

Arg! I hit quote rather than edit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ January 10, 2004, 05:37: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

My personal favorite strat for Last of the Tuatha is using a nine astral oracle. Being the cheapest way to get a level nine blessing (other than the blood fountain) it leaves enough points to have growth and productivity scales. I find that important to compensate for the lost income from the turmoil and luck scales which seem most effecient for the theme.

Also Cu Sihde work very well with Twist Fate, and with already high magic resistance both your sacred troops make a good counter for a variety of spells.

[ January 10, 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: quantum_mechani ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I used both. An Oracle with 9 astral and 9 water. It struck me as bubbling water so I named it Champagne

[ January 10, 2004, 19:00: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Was that with order or turmoil?
Becuse using turmoil even with productivity and growth I was having trouble affording sacred units.

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

Hi again.

I'm beginning to think that while lvl9 water blessing is great, it may be dangerous. I am playing with 4 difficult computers now, using (besides normal armies, of course) lonely well-equipped Tuatha mages. Lvl4 construction gives them some really nice items, and protective magic makes them virtually impossible to kill for the conventional armies comp is raising. For now, I've lost just one of them, he was killed by the Golden Naga pretender god. (it was a tight duel, btw - Naga had just 20 hp remaining). I must say I was impressed by these Tuatha commandos. I had a single Tuatha reclaim province targeted by Imprint Souls, killing 100 madmen and flagellants. I am starting to think that even in Multi (have yet to learn before I try) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif they may be used to great effect.

The problem with water blessing is quickness. I am using resillience amulets and rainbow armors for better rejuvenation, yet quickened mages manage to spend more fatique than they recover.
For now I would like to try some other bless effects. For example, with lvl9 Air sacred troops don't fear arrows even fired by these friendly longbows, and it will take less points to build a pretender God.

[ January 11, 2004, 01:15: Message edited by: Shuji Doyama ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

I have had alot of fun with water9 but I'm about to try a slightly different approach with C'tis that might benifit Tuatha - Moloch with Fire9 Water4-6. Did you try something like this when you were experimenting with Fire Jasper?

The idea is that Fire9 is not that pricey and Water4-6 gets you a big part of what Water9 does without the full cost. Wether or not it works depends on how much faster you rout your opponents as this is a good way of reducing casulties. Routing people fast becomes increasingly important as magic starts to back up missile fire and you want to get the battle won before the enemy mages wreak to much havoc on your expensive sacred troops. However if the defense of the Daone Sidhe is not high enough it won't work so well.

I don't build anything other than sacred troops or arrow catchers in my home province with Tuatha as while the longbows do work they don't work well with Daoine Sidhe. Having spent so many points on high level magic for bless effects I want as many of my troops as possible to be able to utilise the bless effects. This is partly a personal taste question and I do understand people can get good results early with Longbows and without the complexity/risk the Daoine Sidhe/Cu Sidhe armies entail. If you can get the start right relying on sacred troops you do end up with a higher quality army.

The lack of good arrow catchers is a big problem with this race. Its nice to have something with a prot of about 13 and a strat move of 2 to deploy to middle and fore of your army on hold and attack so that the arrows stay away from the expensive sacred lads - but Man doesn't get anything like that.

I do think this is a tricky race to use and requires alot of practice to get the expansion right. I've gone off expensive low hit point troops for the moment (it was the Centaur Warrior experiance) but when I next try them I must remember to give Tuatha another go as it is an underdog race with some real strengths and I like that combo.

cheers

Keir

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fair enough - its probably better for C'tis as they can afford it easier. Its certainly true that the 50% quickness is excellent.

Using water9 blessings has really made me appreciate Boots of the Messenger. 5 nature gems for reinvigoration4 seems a good deal.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

C'tis can definitely afford the points easier. Not being able to take advantage of the free points from Misfortune really hurts Tuatha in this regard. I'm hoping they fix the balance on Misfortune/Order enough to make Tuatha actually viable.

I like the Messenger Boots as well, although less so with Man, who's Bards have reinvigoration spell song. With lots of nature mages and stealthy troops you have less need for Wineskins however, so more gems for boots...

[ January 11, 2004, 21:14: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

I didn't try this, as it just cost too much for my tastes. I instead put the point savings into dominion scales. I've come to really like the +50% quickness on the Sidhe anyway, especially on their leaders.

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

Boots are good, but as I remember, only sidhe champions and bards can wear them. All the best mages of Tuatha (Sidhe Lords and Tuatha themselves) are mounted.

Re: Last of the Tuatha strategy
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Tuatha mages use them as well, and if this isn't enough you could give them an earth-4 blessing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree here. Found the combo javelin/lesser fear (death-4) work fastest, as long as the sidhe cover at least the entire frontline of the squad they're attacking. Rout in the 2nd combat turn should be sufficient, shouldn't it? And than there's always the possiblity to back up the fear with the Panic-Spell ..

By the way, going for an Water/Earth/Death-blessing Pretender gives nices complementary searching abilities to the air/nature pics on the commanders.

A.

[ January 12, 2004, 14:25: Message edited by: Arralen ]