largest map size people will play
 

just wondering , if I were to create a map for everyone, what size people would like it. I mean, how many provinces are too many? i can do upwards of 500 or so if people will play it, i have my old D&D world on my computer that i made with Fractal Mapper some time ago. I was going to plunk it into photo shop and do some editing and want to make a map for everyone to play. It is a whole world, not just a continent so i can turn it into as many provinces as people think is necessary. It is big enough for 1000 or more, but that may just be too big. I've got plenty of time...let me know how big is too big.
It is kinda grainy at such a high resolution, but the map is now about 5500x2600 pixels right now. I'm trying to smooth it out and may even give it a watercolor feel. its only about 4 megs in size too.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

The maximum amount of provinces a Dom II map can have is 500 IIRC. It would be nice if there was a map that size.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

I have random maps being generated on my site every day. Alot of conversation about them has occurred. Talking about it as "provinces per player" made it easier for people to consider. As I remember it the favorite categories tended to be 5, 7, and 10. As in 5/provinces per player before war looks likely (5*17=85).

Some felt 7 worked better to allow for some choices to be made in taking a province. 5 tended to force all provinces being taken.
(7*17=119)

Having 10 provinces for each player allowed for games when tended to go further into magic research. And playing with fewer nations allowed for 25 per player which seemed the highest anyone considered reasonable.

But then Ive never been reasonable. My favorite maps were those that were trying to achieve 25 per player. Unfotunately the old DomMap generator tended to give error statements saying the goal failed and it could only place xxx provinces. Close, but rarely hitting the mark.(25*17=425)

I used the large maps to randomly scatter problems all over the map forcing strategy decisions of having to go AROUND alot of provinces. The games tended toward having to go out and FIND the other nations rather than getting pushed up against them.

The problem now is that with the need to assign terrain, and assign all the neighbors, I dont think alot of really big maps will be manually created. If you do then Im sure it will sit comfortably in a niche that people will try. Not alot, but some.

[ January 09, 2004, 17:33: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: largest map size people will play
 

If it is not too much problems I believe it would be appreciated if you made both a smaller Version and a larger Version of the map.

I personally like large maps, but rarely play or finish big games.

A smaller Version with kingdoms and a larger one with more detail and provinces would be much appreciated, at least by me.

Looking forward to your map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey Kristoffer,
Speaking of looking forward to maps....
http://www.illwinter.com/illwork.jpg
Im I blind or does this show a map I havent seen yet? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: largest map size people will play
 

You havn't seen it yet. It is the Ragnarök map. A three layered world of Norse Mythos. It is an overly ambitious project of mine that will take some time to finish. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

You can also see the first sprites of a new underwater nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Well look at that!

It could be a new theme, for Pangaea maybe... Nature/water race? Do you know what W3N2 mages can cast? Bone Melter! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: largest map size people will play
 

The Capricorn comes with 3N 2W 1R.

It begun as a theme for Atlantis but have evolved into an entirely new underwater nation.

It is more or less finished. Needs testing and descriptions and heroes and stuff.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you just love to drop bombs? Or is this the standard programmer "Ive worked on it so long that I forgot it was new"?
(which is also part of the problem with getting programmers to document)

[ January 12, 2004, 18:54: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I remember one of the developers saying that the maximum number of provinces is 500. So making a map over 500 provinces probably won't work.
I would love to see a map with 470 provinces or more.

There would be 50-Times as many maps available for download if the game had a normal map editor.

[ January 12, 2004, 20:14: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: largest map size people will play
 

For me it's as big as you can make them. I always seem to clash with the AI too soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Cheers,

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maps such as "Poke in the Eye" and "Miirunst X" take care of that. They are heavily randomized and the text file part (the .map file) is re-randomized daily.

http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably true, but what is a normal map editor? We mostly do games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
What do you miss the most? The ability to draw stuff easily, or the ability to edit the map?

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you would have to go a long way to make it preferable to just using notepad and a paint program. Not because its bad. Just because I think those are powerful and preferable to many map editors.

Personally I would really appreciate the MapEditor more if the auto stuff worked alittle better. The name thing seems to work well. The neighbor guesser for some reason doesnt do as good as Dom1 did even with the same maps. Maybe a terrain guesser would be nice even if it did just mostlyBlue=water, mostlyGreen=plains, mostlyBrown=mountains.
(and of course I wouldnt mind if it could be scripted thru in a non-graphic mode but I know thats pushing it) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Any word on a gimp set of brushes for maps?

[ January 13, 2004, 20:34: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Probably true, but what is a normal map editor? We mostly do games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
What do you miss the most? The ability to draw stuff easily, or the ability to edit the map? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A normal map editor would be where someone could choose the option 'Map Editor' and it opens either a blank map or more preferably a randomly generated map. The gamer should be able to add or delete basic map features such as forest, lake, mountains, swamp, etc., into the map. Then the gamer should be able to setup the borders, province settings and place the capitals. The map then saved and ready to go.
Changing map features, monsters, events, and province independents on the map can be more complicated.

I can honestly say that the BEST map editor I've ever seen was from Heroes_III. Anyone could easily create a map... and master gamers could create their very complex maps if they wanted. The number of tools, settings, monsters and features available were great! Spells and skills could be disabled. Events could be very complex/detailed or very simple.
--IF you get the chance PLEASE just take a look at what they had available. It will provide lots of ideas for you.--

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">By any chance are the maps created anywhere near close to what we use now? Im tempted to go thru all my old games and reload them just to see what if they have map generators and what they create.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

[quote]Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

Quote:

Originally posted by NTJedi: By any chance are the maps created anywhere near close to what we use now?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heroes_III was a turn based strategy game also. Most of the tools and features from that games map editor could definitely give great ideas for an improved map editor in this game.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

[quote]Originally posted by NTJedi:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

Quote:

Originally posted by NTJedi: By any chance are the maps created anywhere near close to what we use now?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heroes_III was a turn based strategy game also. Most of the tools and features from that games map editor could definitely give great ideas for an improved map editor in this game. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK I got that. What I was wondering ws if it could be used as an editor for this game now. Or at least if the random generator creates maps that would be good starting points. I suppose I could go look at screenshots but I tohught Id ask.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

OK, I have used Heroes II, Starcraft and Empire Earth editors. True, you can do a lot. An awful lot. I have a hard time imagining how we would make a editor like that. It's more or less a game in itself. At least for me. I can spend endless hours on map and scenatio design.

It would have to be made from scratch, as nothing in dominions works in a way similar to those editors.

An editor like that will never be made. Simpler ones might.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know matching those editors would be far to great of a task. My thought was that by reviewing these other map editors you and your team could decide which of these features could easily be added into a future dominions map editor. For example... depending on the programming and game engine it may be easy to add the feature of disabling spells in this games future editor.

Some features should be easy to add... I'm sure others are not possible or far to time consuming. Hopefully the Heroes_III map editor will provide some great ideas.

Re: largest map size people will play
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seems like we can get most of the immediate benefit if somebody wrote a howto. The way I would approach this is to use GIMP (free and available on the same platforms at Dom2). Seems like it would look like:
- Importing the initial graphic.
- Removing the white pixels.
- Creating additional layers:
The white dot layer.
The border layer.
The province name layer
The embellishment layer (trees and whatever)
- Merging the layers.
- Saving as a .tga
- Importing into the map editor.
- Creating the neighbors.
- Creating the province values.
- Finishing the .map file by hand.
- Testing.
- Posting info to the forums.
- Getting your map on Illwinter's site.

You should include sample images that could be imported into GIMP as the various layers. And a image file full of embellishments ready for cut-n-paste. And a finished .tga & .map file.

At this point, most anybody could follow the instructions and build a map.

Miles

Re: largest map size people will play
 

Well GIMP is what the Devs use. It is a great program although a couple levels higher than a "play with a paint" program that some might prefer.

Kristoffer mentioned a couple of times letting loose with a brush file, or palette, or maybe just a tga filled with the terrain icons he uses. But I get the impression that every time he starts on it he ends up playing with more stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The things you laid out look fine though. Maybe we Users should tackle it? There are a few GIMPers floating around here.

-- Yeah I'm finally a GIMP. Shoulda been one long ago.
If I only GNU then what I GNOME now.

[ January 16, 2004, 02:04: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]