Two new MODs from me
 

I have made two new mods. I just sent them off to Illwinter and Sunray, so they should be posted shortly.

#1 Alexander's Scales - Dominion scales balanced the way I like. I think it goes a long way towards addressing issues with Order-Luck.

#2 Healing Gods - I wish there was a way to pray afflictions off of gods. After all we can pray them back to life. Since we don't have that, the best I can do is give all gods the recuperation ability. Pretend the people are willing their god back to health.


If you find typos or issues with the mods, or just want to comment, please feel free to offer your help and input. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...I agree. It's annoying that you can be in a situation where your regenerating wyrm is useless to you (blind and crippled), and you are better off killing him and calling him back. But unless recuperation has varying degrees, I would not want to play with it on all gods. Earth-10 Cyclops with recuperation? That's close to the ultimate supercombattant... (chassis, I mean)

I don't know... a recuperating Wyrm is also superpowerful.

...I think recuperation is too powerful by default. Maybe if a pricey con-4 item gave recuperation, that'd be OK, or if 20 prayer points could eliminate an affliction. But this may be a recipe for disaster.

And then, aren't you the big advocate of SC pretenders?

[ January 14, 2004, 22:52: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>...I think recuperation is too powerful by default. Maybe if a pricey con-4 item gave recuperation, that'd be OK, or if 20 prayer points could eliminate an affliction. But this may be a recipe for disaster.


I'd prefer many other solutions, however I work with what I got.


>And then, aren't you the big advocate of SC pretenders?

User/Abuser yes.
Not an advocate. I wish that they had never existed. But as long as they do, everyone should be prepared/informed.


The affliction recuperation is strong, but I don't see it as terribly unbalancing. Besides nobody is forcing anyone to use it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

I use mostly rainbows, but I sympathize with folks who have a "useless" SC as a result of afflictions.

20 prayer points, however, are disturbingly easy to come by. If you have 5 indie priests praying for 2 turns, you got those points. I would prefer a year of recouperation (12 turns) in the SC's home province with orders to "heal affliction" during which the pretender can't even research.

If somebody's pretender has been out of commission for a year, I'd say they deserve to come back better. Uncrippled. Unfeebleminded. Or whatever.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Apoger...
any chance we'll see an XL map from you ??
Please...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>20 prayer points, however, are disturbingly easy to come by.

Agreed. If I had my way I'd make it 40 points, but only from prayers at the gods location.

The recuperation is hard to judge, I'd estimate that it's a 25% chance per turn of losing an affliction. It's not nearly as nice as being immortal.


>any chance we'll see an XL map from you ??
>Please...

I've done a good deal of work converting the Dom1 map "Fantasy North America". I'll polish it up eventually.

By "XL" I assume you mean extra large? Not sure. Depends on my mood. I'm not an artist, and the map work takes me time.


Right now I'm working on mods to improve light cavalry (which I think are deficient) and up the precision on mages. Is there any interest out there for such things? Let me know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Alex, why don't you lay out the readme of the changes you implemented in the Balancemod? Just to see which direction you went in.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Alex, why don't you lay out the readme of the changes you implemented in the Balancemod? Just to see which direction you went in.

I'd rather players try the scales before arguing about them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

However this is a copy of the README file I included with the mod. Enjoy.


Alexander's Scales


This is a mod that tweaks the games dominion scales.

It is my design philosophy that the game scales should be as balanced as possible. Players should have a hard time making choices between which scales will best represent their nation/style. Furthermore I feel that the scales should be important to the players. They should have levels of potency that make the players strongly desire positive scales and deeply fear negative scales.

It is my opinion that the current scale dynamic has many weakness that allow players (including myself) to exploit the system for extra nation points. I'm not talking about sculputing the scales for efficiency with certain nations, what I am talking about is scale and combinations that allow more value than they should (in my opinion). I think there are a number of players out there that are unhappy with the current Order-Luck dynamic, even though we all enjoy using/abusing it. I am also unhappy with the potency of Production/Sloth and Growth/Death. In my opinion neither of these scales does enough to the game facets that they control. I don't like players casually taking Sloth-3 or Death-3 because the penalty is unimpressive. I want players to sweat for each +1 scale and gulp every time they contemplate taking -1.

In essence, I want the scales to have better balance and more impact.

If I could get into the game code I would make all kinds of changes.
However I must use the tools provided, and so I beg you forgiveness if my alterations seem like a bit of a kludge (they are).

Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want.


The following are my reasonings, interpretations, and descriptions of this mod's scales;


ORDER/TURMOIL

Let me start by saying that I was a fan of the Order/Turmoil system used in Dom1. I liked things better when this scale was a modifier to unrest rather than a direct gold adjuster. I understand why Illwinter changed things as the Order/Unrest/Patrol dynamic was problematic. Unfortunately I feel that the changes have created a host of replacement issues.

As things stand Order/Turmoil is really a tax modifier. I can accept and work with that. However let's call it what it is. This is really a "Financial efficiency" or "Prosperity" scale. It's the tax scale. The money scale. The gold scale.

I can live with that. In my mod, Order/Turmoil is the scale that represents your nations relationship to finances. It is the only scale that does this. Production and Growth now deal with their own issues and no longer intrude on financial matters.

In a land of Order +3 the nation has a clearly defined and well enforced set of monentary policies. The government mints coins and/or prints script which is backed by resources or confidence.There are merchant guilds. Lending institutions. Money changers. Insurance companies. Banks. Trade and commerce are cultivated and revenues are created.

In a land of Turmoil +3 there are no clearly defined financial policies. Transactions are made with lumps or weights of precious metals, gemstones, spices, or even chickens. Trade exists, but there are no standards or efficiencies. Everyone simply has what they own, and if they want to trade they barter.

The way the mod represtents this is by giving Order/Turmoil a 15% gold revenue modifier per level of scale.

Order/Turmoil has nothing to do with luck. At least not in my mod. If you want to play with your luck, then modify your luck scale.


PRODUCTION/SLOTH

Production and Sloth modify your nations resources. This scale no longer has anything to do with money, as that is now the purview of Order/Turmoil. Production/Sloth represents the natural resources your nation has, and your peoples ability to acquire and utilize them.

In a land of Production +3 the nation has near limitless natural resources. Workable wood, stone, and metals are easy to find, and the artisans of the land are skilled in using these resources.

In a land of Sloth +3 resources are rare or of poor quality. Workable resources are hard to acquire and the craftsmen are poorly skilled.

The difference between a wastland that has little resource and a land that is overflowing with goods is pretty significant. I don't think this has been modeled well by the standard rules. In my mod the difference has been expanded in order to make production attractive and sloth miserable.

The way the mod represtents this is by giving Production/Sloth a 30% modifier per level of scale.


HEAT/COLD

I am an ordinary human living in NYC. If I found myself wisked away to Siberia it would lower my efficiency pretty significantly. By the standards of the current system I would suffer a 15% penalty. That's it, 15%. This doesn't come close to the penatly that I think beings would suffer from trying to survive in temperatures that are dangerous to them. What about an Abysian (lava humanoid) at the north pole? A huge 30% penalty? The Abysians get 120 free nation points due to heat and the absolute worst penalty for trying to live on a glacier is 30% ?

Not in my mod. People that try to survive outside their comfort zone should suffer. SUFFER!

The way the mod represtents this is by giving Heat/Cold a 20% modifier per level of scale.

Haven't been paying much attention to heat/cold? Well start! It makes a difference now!


GROWTH/DEATH

I want to make two things very clear. First is that population/armies/scales are all abstractions. Second is that we are playing this game in a world of high fantasy, where gods walk the earth and exude divine power in an attempt to alter reality. Please do not involve yourself in foolish discussions about how many babies were born in small medieval towns during realistic timeframes. Growth scale is an abstraction awash in a sea of other abstractions. Leave it alone and let it do it's work.
This scale no longer has any direct connection to money, as that is now the purview of Order/Turmoil. However this scale does affect both gold and resoucres indirectly since it influences population.

I find the Growth/Death scale in standard Dominions to be too slow. In my opinion this scale should be impressive. This isn't natural growth/death, as it's being propagated by gods.

The way I see it, players that invest in growth scale are cultivating their population as an investment for the future. Players that suffer death scale are draining the life from their population in order to "cash out" nation points at the expense of their lands health.

In a nation of Growth +3 the land is lush with plants and animals. Fertility is incredible and births are common. People migrate great distances to enjoy the overflow of life.

In a nation of Death +3 the land is barren and lifeless. Seeds will not take root even in good soil. Births are rare, and people and animals dream of fleeing to better places.

The way the mod represtents this is by giving Growth/Death a .7% modifier per level of scale.

For the living, growth is wonderful and death is horrible. The scales should be equally so.


LUCK/MISFORTUNE

This scale has undergone the most scrutiny. I am not at all happy with the standard luck dynamics. I'd change a lot if I could, however I have done the best I can with the tools available.

First, no scale affects the quantity of luck. Everyone gets the same amount of luck. The only question is it's quality. I found that this was important in order to balance out the affects to this scale which otherwise becomes too chaotic.

My intention with this scale is to make it as viable an option as the other scales. I want players to crave luck and fear misfortune. Balance and potency, that's my motive. A nation with Order-3 Misfortune-3 should be rich, yet plagued by horrific circumstances. A nation with Turmoil-3 Luck-3 should be dirt poor economically, yet graced by incredible fortune. Order-3 and Luck-3, wow rich and fortunate! Turmoil-3 and Misfortune-3 would be a nightmare for the living. Positive scales, good. Negative scales, bad.

In a nation of Luck +3 you can turn over a rock and find lost artifacts. Treasure chests float onto your shores. Hero's and troops show up in the nick of time. The people look forward to the next day because every days a great day in a land of luck.

In a nation of Misfortune +3 the people live in a state of despair. Every day is a new tradgedy. The temple burns down. Gold has been stolen. And now the barbarians are attacking. Life is unfair!

The way the mod represtents this is by giving Luck/Misfortune a 20% modifier per level of scale.

Yes 20%. You crave luck. You fear misfortune. You have no idea which scales to choose since they are all important. Good, I've done my job.


MAGIC

Grrrrr... I'll mod magic as soon as the tools to do so exist.


Hope you enjoy the mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Alex Poger

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Well considering how you, yourself are so critical of IW's scales and are vocal about it, giving them the same opportunity shouldn't be all that bad. I'm sure most will try them in the light they are presented. Though I'm worried a little about your recuiperation Mod, I'll try your scales with an open mind before I make a decision the same as I would with IW.

Edit: Just one thing I wanted to note for your Readme. An Abyssian trying to live on a Glacier is a 60% Loss (From Heat 3 to Cold 3 is 6 steps). In your mod it's a 120% Loss.

Edit: Just one other note before I play it, initial impressions if you will. Did you test your Mod with force turmoil, forced misfortune and other 'unchangable' variables and come up with conclusions around them? (Specifically I'm thinking of Barbarian Kings, Force Turmoil of 2, with no other scales that give any sort of income, they had better just head home because they won't be able to pay upkeep let alone recruit new units)

[ January 15, 2004, 01:15: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd like to see better balance, but less impact from the scales, so that it might be normal to take at least 9 in one path on a pretender while still having a fairly high skill in other magic paths.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

> An Abyssian trying to live on a Glacier is a 60% Loss (From Heat 3 to Cold 3 is 6 steps). In your mod it's a 120% Loss.


6 steps at 5% = 30%

It is 120% in my mod. Abysia generates no cash in cold +3. I have no issue with that.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither does Machaka though, and since Machaka is most likely South Africa, heat +2 is not that hot.

Heat +3 is likely a land where daytime temperatures of 45 deg C are common throughout the year. Cold +3 would be like the arctic, bitterly cold in the winter, but certainly not unlivable.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Did you test your Mod with force turmoil, forced misfortune and other 'unchangable' variables and come up with conclusions around them? (Specifically I'm thinking of Barbarian Kings, Force Turmoil of 2, with no other scales that give any sort of income, they had better just head home because they won't be able to pay upkeep let alone recruit new units)


I tested by playing games where I took all 17 nations. I used a variety of strategies and expanded like I normally would.

Forced turmoil isn't happy, as it's a negative scale. Using my mod such nations can be somewhat competitive economically using growth and particularly luck, which is more than they can do without the mod.

I am not a fan of forced turmoil in general. I don't think the themes that got it also got enough power to compensate. Their issue isn't the scales, but the nation design. When IW creates tools that allow changes to the themes, I'll do work on that.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Hmmm. 30% per step for productivity? 15% for income? 0.7% for growth?

...

Sounds like order 3, growth 3, productivity 3, some sort of castle... and anything that's left on the god. With scales that strong I can't imagine taking any negatives or wasting points on a god.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can understand that. These are your scales the way you want the game to play. If someone trys and likes the approach they might have useful criticisms while if they simply don't like your approach its not worth arguing about.

Not suprisingly the mod reflect the trends that I have seen in your race design (heavy weight on scales) and thats obviously how you enjoy playing the game.

The recuperation thing is a bit odd. Its so heavily in favour of SC's that I find your claim to dislike SC's hard to fathom. I don't like pretender SC's much at all and I don't use them much - unless PoD with death9 for terror using C'tis counts as one. You on the other hand dislike SC's, use them frequently, and want a mod making them much stronger. I don't have problems with pretenders getting affliction as I so rarely use them in combat while you get them alot so want to deal with the issue - but you don't like SC's. Here I'm confused.

I have had the impression for awhile now that you are missing dom1. The mod allows you to recapture what you liked of dom1 and make it as much the way you would have liked as possible. Sorta like dominions on steriods with the massive economic growth you have enabled.

The value of the mod tools - we can all try to get what we want.

Ciao

Keir

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Cold +3 would be like the arctic, bitterly cold in the winter, but certainly not unlivable.

Compare a temperate area (England, NE America, Japan) to the arctic. Yes people can live in the arctic, the question is how hard would it be (without mordern tech)? Compared to their fair weather friends would they produce 15% less? My mod puts it at 60%. I'm willing to stand by that.

Also keep in mind that this isn't reality. It's an abstraction in a fantasy game. I don't think strong penalties for complete opposites are unjustified.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Same here. Just take Pythium with an oracle, and give them order 3, prod 3, growth 3, luck 1, wizard's tower. Put your remaining points into a dominion of 5 and one extral point of astral. I can't imagine that spending points on a pretender would make any sense at all when the scales are so overpowerful.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bless effects heaven - a man after my own tastes.

The way I can see of doing this with the present mod tools is modding the pretenders to give them more-and-higher starting paths of magic while leaving their costs the same.

Another approach would be to make all the scales weaker making the return from magic more appealling but I don't like this approach so much.

Cheers

Keir

[ January 15, 2004, 01:39: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Scandanivia is either cold 1 or 2 (Vanheim/Jotunheim). It certainly doesn't produce 40% less output per piece of land than England. Neither does Canada.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As long as part of your argument is grounded in reality, then realism always applies, or else you must simply change your argument to "There is no reason other than because I feel like it." If you wish to invoke reality for part of your explanation then it should also work for arguments against something.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Alex, I'm not arguing here.

I think I didn't know which one you pumped to 10% Just income?

IW Scales: Heat 3 Preference to Cold 3 Enviroment

-30% Gold, -60% Supplies.

AlexMod Scales

-120% Gold?, -120% Supplies? (Or -60% Supplies)?

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I love the bless effects, and I wish that spending 250 points on your pretender to get a skill of 9 from a starting point of 1 was worth as much to your race as spending 240 points on order 3 and growth 3.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The basic costs for the pretenders seems about right, although I'd like to see the cyclops only cost 50-75 points.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't like it as much easier.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Sounds like order 3, growth 3, productivity 3, some sort of castle... and anything that's left on the god. With scales that strong I can't imagine taking any negatives or wasting points on a god.

Yes, however the problem I see now is players spending everything on their god instead of wasting points on scales.

These scales are similar to Dom1, as Keir suggested. I have never hidden that I don't like the Dom2 scales. The Dom1 scales worked just fine and weren't too extreme then, and as such really are too extreme now. Just different.

It's my feeling that this makes choices hard on the players. No easy picks like order-misfortune. No picking two 9s in magics at the cost of death-3 sloth-3 for that unimpressive 6% income hit.

My goal is not to spite gods. It's to make all choices viable and interesting. No matter what you choose, you aren't getting something else valuable, whether it's god magic or luck scale. That's what I want. Hard choices because everything is good.


Try the mod once it's available. I think you'll find it more balanced than you think. At the least, luck is now a useable scale. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>-30% Gold, -60% Supplies.
>AlexMod Scales
>-120% Gold?, -120% Supplies?

That's exactly the situation.
An abysian army in the arctic needs to bring food.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm very sympathetic to this argument but would put it a bit different. As a large part of the game is fantasy combined with the fact that our understanding of reality is only partial alot of the time we are not talking about realistic so much as plausible. You can come up with extremely different worlds to ours were things work very differently as long as there are plausible explanations for things. A Ring world is one example of this. The thing you should avoid is abandoning reaoson and just saying well this is like that because this is how I feel it should be. Godo fantasy is very believable and has an internal logic which strengthens all the elements.

I believe there is always a place for reason in determining what the realism of your fantasy enironment is. As fantasy environments are inspired by historical societies and their myths and legends it is history we draw much from - but also our understanding of geography, physics chemistry - of people, the world, and how it all works.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Scandanivia is either cold 1 or 2 (Vanheim/Jotunheim). It certainly doesn't produce 40% less output per piece of land than England.

A> Cold-1 would be 20% with my mod.

B> I'd say the Vikings would disagree with you on the farming versus raiding/migrating to England example.

Without modern technologies life in the cold pretty much sucked. Yes people lived in the cold, but not the massively productive ones. The great empires didn't rise from the desert either. There's a reason for this.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see this as a problem at all. The pretender is supposed to be powerful, not a mediocre mage that an average human can hope to surpass. I'd like to see archmages running around with at least four in every path so that they can actually have truly major effects.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The picks are really easy. Either take an oracle with astral 3 and a massive economy, or a titan with air three and no gold boost. There's no way that points spent on a pretender can compete with that kind of economy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except of course, that they aren't hard choices, because there is no way for a rainbow mage to be worth the points you spent on him.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure it's balanced, but only because it removes the element of variability from race design, and reduces them to their national units and mages. It turns it from a game of fantasy combat where the pretender can have a major impact to one where your ability to crank out mundane troops is more important. That's a standard problem with most fantasy strategy games, and standard Dom2 avoids it fairly well.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oooph - brutal. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Here am I saying that dual bless effects races were always somewhat borderline and have been slaughtered by the patch and you suggest it is that easy? I sure must be hopeless at this game.

Since Johan O. made it clear the whole misfortune free points were history I have spent alot less time on dual bless effect races and my races have generally got stronger (accept when I try blood). I can accept that one 9 is not too hard to get a strong race from since the patch but two 9's?

Methinks you overstate your point.

Like I said before - strong dominion scales is how Alex has always seemed to enjoy playing, many others do not feel this way. Thats fine. In fact its better than fine - it is down right cool as Alex has obviously been pretty dissapointed, and annoyed, by Dom2 and now he can recapture what he has lost. Kudos to Illwinter. Just goes to show even Swedes can overcome their paternalism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Now about those Militia . . . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

cheers

Keir

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cold 2 (Norway?) isn't cold 1 though, is it.

Quote:

B> I'd say the Vikings would disagree with you on the farming versus raiding/migrating to England example.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Vikings didn't stop raiding even after they had settled in temperate areas like England.

Quote:

Without modern technologies life in the cold pretty much sucked.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It doesn't though, it's really quite easy to keep yourself warm with a bit of basic knowledge and furs. Heck, ancient humans lived in Northern China long before they were likely to have fire.

Quote:

Yes people lived in the cold, but not the massively productive ones. The great empires didn't rise from the desert either. There's a reason for this.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ever heard of Egypt, the Indus river valley, or the empires in the Tigris-Euphrates river valley? Those aren't exactly temperate environments and they were the most powerful and wealthiest empires of their time.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Other than the Arabs, the Mongols and to many others to mention. I think your point is more that the most valuable areas of human civilisation in terms of productivity and gold were those closest to a human norm. Then you add in the ability to adapt within the range of say +1 to -1 (which IMO covers most areas of human settlement) allowing specific races to cope with those situations - Mictlan, Vanheim etc.

However I think %20 gold modifier per different scale is too much and its the one feature I noticed that really worried me in terms of how it will impact on the game. It is a huge change and will have many potential balence consequences and may prove disastrous for races starting to far from the norm.

I thought the current heat cold modifier was 5% not the 10% people seem to have been talking about - least thats what its says in the mod tools and the post from Illwinter I copied into a doc awhile back.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>I'd like to see archmages running around with at least four in every path so that they can actually have truly major effects.

As would I.
I have always complained that the mage pretenders are weak.
This is on my list of things to mod.


>There's no way that points spent on a pretender can compete with that kind of economy.

That's an ignorant statement. Plenty of players with magic pretenders in Dom1 which had even more gold available than my mod, BTW.

Try the mod before making such blanket statements.

>Except of course, that they aren't hard choices, because there is no way for a rainbow mage to be worth the points you spent on him.

They aren't worthwhile now. But that's another fight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


>It doesn't though, it's really quite easy to keep yourself warm with a bit of basic knowledge and furs. Heck, ancient humans lived in Northern China long before they were likely to have fire.

Sure, many people settled in places with bad climates. However they spent their time surviving. Certainly more time surviving and less time producing taxable income than those living in more temperate lands.


>Ever heard of Egypt

The nile valley was hardly a harsh place.


This is a stupid argument and I'm not playing anymore. If you really want to believe that people are equally adept in all temperatures, you go right ahead. Don't like my mod? Fine. Don't use it. Nobody is twisting your arm. Play the game the way you want.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Bump the costs of scales from 40 to 100 points, and these changes should be OK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>However I think %20 gold modifier per different scale is too much and its the one feature I noticed that really worried me in terms of how it will impact on the game. It is a huge change and will have many potential balence consequences and may prove disastrous for races starting to far from the norm.


Keep in mind that those races gain a hefty supply of nation points for those scales. I play the extreme races all the time. I have no pity for them, as they have been totally advantaged by the current scales (IMO).

Also it's not like the temperature is permenent, once they own a area they should enforce their scales there. There is only a loss of gold when owning territory inside enemy dominion that has different scale than you. I don't see this as a major issue, as this is a situation that resolves itself one way or another.


>I thought the current heat cold modifier was 5% not the 10% people seem to have been talking about

It was 10% in Dom1 and is now 5%.
In many ways the scales were halved between the Versions.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't make pretenders stronger by making it relatively several times more expensive to give them magic skills.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dom1 required you to patrol for that gold, and an empire was capable of getting that much even with a turmoil 3 dominion. Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme, and should be happy with a net income of around 50 gold per turn to start with. You also didn't have +90% resources for productivity 3 in addition to the large bonus to gold.

From the number of people who advised choosing a wyrm with no magic, over any other pretender, I'd also have to disagree with you on that. Most of the winners in the detailed Jblitz reports also spent next to nothing on their pretenders, and relied almost totally on their economies to win.

I would think that a better amount of gold for the order scale would be 2% to 4% per tick, more than what the other scales can provide, but not so much as to make it more valuable than adding magic skill to your pretender.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It certainly counts as a hot place though, doesn't it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While the temperature has its effect, it is nowhere near as large as you want to make it. You've presented your scales as superior to the existing ones (labelling them as balanced), so you should expect your arguments to be challenged.

I'd also really like to see you competitively play a dual 9 bless effect race with both sloth and death at 3, if taking those scales doesn't matter that much.

[ January 15, 2004, 02:43: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And of supplies of course. How do you expect Abysia to invade Caelum, or vice versa under this system?

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme

Last time I'm telling you, play before speaking.

In fact Pangaea will do *much better* under my mod than the standard because of the improved luck. I did playtest.


>From the number of people who advised choosing a wyrm with no magic, over any other pretender, I'd also have to disagree with you on that.


That's a Dom1 recommendation. I haven't advocated the Wyrm for players anytime recently.

At least criticize me on a current topic.


>Most of the winners in the detailed Jblitz reports also spent next to nothing on their pretenders, and relied almost totally on their economies to win.


JTblitz was on a freaky small map where flyers could go from capital to capital. You have to consider the scenario. It was hardly representative of most Dominions play.


>I would think that a better amount of gold for the order scale would be 2% to 4% per tick, more than what the other scales can provide, but not so much as to make it more valuable than adding magic skill to your pretender.


No problem. DON'T PLAY MY MOD. PLAY WHAT YOU ENJOY.


>You've presented your scales as superior to the existing ones (labelling them as balanced),


Taken directly from the readme:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."

You're reading more into things than are there. Chill, and enjoy the game.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>How do you expect Abysia to invade Caelum, or vice versa under this system?

With difficulty. That's the way I want it. They got 120 free nation points, let them work at fighting their opposites.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Last time I checked, luck +3 didn't provide Pangaea with any more benefits than it did to any other nation. Turmoil 3 does however, and you've changed it to no longer have an effect on the nuber of events. You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your scales make the game much more like Dom1, so it certainly still applies. If you can think of a better choice for, say, Man than some kind of Wyrm with less than 4 magic under your scales then I'd like to hear about it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the economic resources available to players from the reports are any indication, then Dom2 is an awful lot better in that department. The armies listed are far too large.

[QUOTETaken directly from the readme:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."

You're reading more into things than are there. Chill, and enjoy the game.[/quote]

If you claim that something is better a certain way, then you should be willing to back up that claim. Since you seem to think that these scales are better, then you should also be made aware of what the other consequences are (overinflated economies, weak pretenders, level 9 bless effects being less powerful than economy, etc.)

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Absolutely. Although I've disagreed with Alex on matters around diplomacy for a long time now, there's no question in my mind that he has a better handle on balance issues than the devs. Make those mods, Alex.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

No I was comparing Pangaea under standard scales and Panagea under my mod.

The common Panagea strategy is to attempt Turmoil-3 Luck-3 for the extra luck events. Right now it's near unplayable due to the way luck is handled.

Even though my turmoil offers no extra events, I'm telling straight up that my mods Pangaea will be much better off due to the differnce in how I do luck scale.

Hence your complaint that "Now you've effectively told Pangaea that they shouldn't bother using their standard theme" is a load of crap. In fact they are better off under my mod.


>You're assuming that no other nation will take luck 3 in your comparison there.

If you insist on comparing to other nations, then Pangaea can take Order, Luck, or other scales just as easily as anyone else. This has no bearing on anything.


Honestly Graeme, I'm weary of this childish nonsense. For the final time I will quote:

"Please keep in mind that this mod is just my interpretation of how things should be. If you disagree and want to ignore it, by all means go back to the standard game. It's your game, play the way you want."


And that's all I have to say to you.

[ January 15, 2004, 03:26: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

I wouldn't want you to go hog wild with the precision, though certainly a few *minor* tweaks here and there. You also don't want to lessen the fact of Nature (eagle eyes) or Air (Aim) low end spells so they are no longer as impacting as they are now.

Edit: You should also stop fighting about the Mod that hasn't even been released. I have reservations yes. I have things I'm going to be looking at when I test it. (The least of which is pick these 'themes' that the balance wasn't keeping in mind) But I can't say anything now other than conjecture. I hope Alex has been able to use Luck to Balance out his hypothetically overwhelming Order (or in this case Turmoil) but I have to be in game to see.

[ January 15, 2004, 03:37: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You still haven't fixed the problem though, as order 3 is still more useful to them than turmoil 3.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll reiterate that luck 3 is not supposed to be a standard part of Pangaea, turmoil 3 is.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's of course if Pangaea takes a luck scale. They gain no special benefit from doing so compared to other nations, so why should they bother?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If luck is able to overcome a 45% relative reduction in income to order 0, then you've almost certainly made luck too powerful. It doesn't depend on the quality of the rest of your economy, just the number of provinces you own, so it will likely be better than order 3.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right, Pangaea can take order and lose a good part of their Maenad production. The point is that Pangaea is "supposed" to take turmoil,

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahh yes, the old. "You don't have to play it if you don't want to." copout that's used whenever someone points out that your "balance" isn't really balanced, except to your particular style of play. The problem is that you refuse to accept that spending points on a pretender should be every bit as valuable as spending them on dominion scales. I'd like to see your rationale for how spending 275 points to get a green dragon to level 9 nature is going to be as effective as spending those points on order and prod 3. Remember that for it to be close the berserk, regeneration and nature spells must overcome a deficit of roughly 80 gold and 70 resources per turn from the capital province alone.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Wow. This mod is so bad it isn't even worth trying out. All it does is punish those who take negative scales, and reward those who take positive scales. Clearly the best choice is to put all points into scales -- far more so even than in Dom 1. 120 pts for +45% income? 120 pts for ludicrous population growth? Would anyone ever take less?

Alex, I know you like the idea of powerfull scales, and prefer low or even no magic pretenders, but do you honestly think this leads to any balance or variety?

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahh yes, the old. "You don't have to play it if you don't want to." copout that's used whenever someone points out that your "balance" isn't really balanced, except to your particular style of play. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well it is a mod Graeme. I really think that given what you have said you don't want to play the game the way Alex does - ie more like Dom1. Sure the balence is way in favour of dom scales and thus against powerful pretenders. If Alex wants to play that way and thinks others out their might feel the same then whats wrong with that?

Your view of what is a good game is too different from Alex's to make this discussion useful and it seems to be degenerating into flames. I have found it hard to discuss dom constructively with Alex since Dom2 came out as our opinion of the changes is so different. That being the case I'm happy to see Alex have the possibility of approaching the game the way he wants even if its not my cup of tea. No point in him keeping on being annoyed at the game having changed in ways he really doesn't like. As I'm lucky enough to like the changes it seems only fair to show some understanding to the perspective of someone who loved Dom1 (and contributed heaps to its growth) who hasn't got what they want out of dom2.

Having just lost a large chunk of my dom2 race designs to the patch and having been shown little or no sympathy I can understand how irritating it is to have your favourite toys taken away. It pays not rub the salt in - certainly makes me grumpy.

Alex has a valid point regarding the need to play the mod to understand it. I have got annoyed at people who don't seem to have played dual bless effects races telling me dual bless effect races haven't been changed by the patch - so I can appreciate Alex's perspective on this.

I think you should let this one go Graeme as the discussion has become too grumpy to be reasoned or reasonable.

Its time for the good old:

Don't worry, be happy.

Keir

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Wow. This mod is so bad it isn't even worth trying out.

I'm surprised to hear that from you.
Just what do you think is so bad?


>All it does is punish those who take negative scales, and reward those who take positive scales.

I don't see an issue with that.
It's that way now, just to a lesser extent.

Also it does more than that. It addresses the luck issue, and is an attempt to make all scales useful.


>Clearly the best choice is to put all points into scales -- far more so even than in Dom 1. 120 pts for +45% income? 120 pts for ludicrous population growth? Would anyone ever take less?

Of course they would.
A> There are reasons to do so
B> Even if I didn't think so players still would (plenty of evidence for that).

Keep in mind that the maximum gold ajustment for Dom2 is 33%. With my mod it's 45%. That's a 12% boost. It's not nearly the outrage that many here seem to think. Your starting province generates 25ish extra gold. It's not the end of the world. In Dom1 the starting max gold was effectively +60% and that was before 200%/patrolling.

Why would you not take the max? For the exact same reasons you don't do it now. Because there are other things to spend on.


>Alex, I know you like the idea of powerfull scales,

That I do.


>and prefer low or even no magic pretenders,

No I don't prefer them. I used them in Dom1 because that's what worked. I have always lead the charge on wanting more power for the mage pretenders.

My preference is always for all paths to be of value.


>but do you honestly think this leads to any balance or variety?


Do you think that the scale pumping I did will make players forget their gods? If so what does that say about the current balance? Wouldn't that imply that the gods are more important than scales right now? I don't see that as good. I don't want any obvious best choices. You feel that my mod makes scales an obvious best choice? Possibly. But don't you think you should try it before making that assumption? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

There's a few other issues with the scales as set up that I've thought of just recently. While large supply and income reductions for mismatched temperatures might be workable as long as you only use the default theme, it makes the themes that require temperature changes far weaker that the default. Miasma, Niefelheim, Fires of the Faith, etc. all take a 20% hit in every province, which makes it pretty hard to justify the themes at all.

The other is that while DOM2 might allow a 33% income bonus with the default scales, that bonus requires you to spend 360 nation points on your scales, while order in your Version requires only 120 points.

The productivity scale also seems to give too large of a bonus. Currently sloth 3 lets you produce about half as many troops as prod 3. With sloth 3 under your scales you've reduced troops production to 5% of what a prod 3 nation gets. (190% vs. 10% of base resources) If there's some way to overcome that with a SC pretender, I can't see it.

A death scale of 3 means that after 20 turns your capital will be reduced to 20,000 people, while the population under growth 3 will be 45,000. The resources and income boost the growth 3 nation will get when combined with a 45% boost to gold and a 90% boost to resources will be awfully hard to overcome by pretender design.

I can't comment on the luck scale because of the difficulty in calculating its effects. However, it seems fairly obvious that the most efficient way to spend your points are on order 3, prod 3, growth 3 (Even if Abysia to avoid self destruction within 20 turns). Drain 3 should be fairly easy to overcome through spending on large amounts of researchers, and luck 3 also seems like a good idea since the order scale doesn't hurt it, and it ensures that you will mostly get good events. You'll also need to spend a bunch to improve your dominion to the point where it won't be overwhelmed by the people that aren't bothering to give magic skills to their pretender.

That leaves you a maximum of 140 points to spend on your pretender, which hardly gives you a lot of options to make them magically powerful. You'd have to seriously improve the pretenders, especially their starting magic skills, to make spending any more than that worthwhile. After all, they are only one unit, and will have a very hard time overcoming the massive economies that can be produced in short order under your systen.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>it makes the themes that require temperature changes far weaker that the default.

True. However I can't fix everything right now as the mod tools are limited. Many of the themes desperately need fixing (erm, modding).


>The other is that while DOM2 might allow a 33% income bonus with the default scales, that bonus requires you to spend 360 nation points on your scales, while order in your Version requires only 120 points.

Since you seem to feel that growth and production are so potent that you cannot do without, it wouldn't make a difference though, would it? This is exactly what I was shooting for. Difficulty in choice because every option has merit.


>The productivity scale also seems to give too large of a bonus. Currently sloth 3 lets you produce about half as many troops as prod 3. With sloth 3 under your scales you've reduced troops production to 5% of what a prod 3 nation gets. (190% vs. 10% of base resources) If there's some way to overcome that with a SC pretender, I can't see it.

A> You are comparing the most productive nation in the world to the least. I have no issue envisioning that as an extreme difference.

B> The scale had to be modified to the point that it was not obviously something you could ignore. It was my intention to make positive production very alluring and negative production very constraining.


>A death scale of 3 means that after 20 turns your capital will be reduced to 20,000 people, while the population under growth 3 will be 45,000. The resources and income boost the growth 3 nation will get when combined with a 45% boost to gold and a 90% boost to resources will be awfully hard to overcome by pretender design.


A> Growth was meant to double/half poulation in about 40 turns. I don't see that as extreme for "most growth" versus "most death". Many games are just about over in 40 turns. Without scale this potent, players would never see a significant change due to scales.

B> While very potent, you are exaggerating the power and under estimating the benefits of pretenders. Remember this boost is centered on your capital, most of your nation won't ever feel the benefits in a serious way. A magically potent pretender can help with expansion, which is also an economic boost. A magically potent pretender might have strong bless effects, which helps with expansion, which is an economic boost. A strong pretender can really pump magical research or do site hunting, which are different economies than the gold economy, but are also very potent in their own right.

You are throwing about stats without perspective. What are we really talking about? An extra 100-130 gold from the capital province on turn 40? The ability to generate 4-6 extra heavy infanty at the capital on turn 40? Do you really think that this mighty bonus will stop you from taking any magic on you god?


>However, it seems fairly obvious that the most efficient way to spend your points are on order 3, prod 3, growth 3

However, it seems fairly obvious that some players should actually play the mod before wasting everyones time with post after post of conjecture.


>You'd have to seriously improve the pretenders,

That is actually on my list of things to do.
I don't think the pretenders are particularly godlike. I'd like to see more power on them, particularly of the magic sort. However the current mod tools aren't quite ready for pretender work. As soon as Illwinter releases better tools, I'll do much pretender work.


>will have a very hard time overcoming the massive economies that can be produced in short order under your systen.

Or without the exaggeration: sligtly stronger economies that can be produced over the length of the game.

You seem to be putting an extrordinary amount of effort into complaining about a mod that you don't like, and have never played.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

I wont play too, as of now, with these scales. Not because I dont like them intrinsically, but because there is a missing part in the mod, which will have to wait at least a patch: the modding of initial level of all pretenders.

I too would like to see scales which have a significant impact on gameplay. Hey, I have +1 productivity, look at this amazing +10% bonus in production speed. Yaaawwn. I thus concur that the changes of Apoger are ok because each scale is of importance, and has importance.

But as others pointed, the changes made unbalance the magic pretenders strategy, to the point that both Rainbow mages & blessing pretenders are unplayable, and I dont like to have less choices when I choose a pretender. So when this part too will be tweaked (thanks to a future patch), I think I will enjoy much this mod.

edited : some typos.

[ January 15, 2004, 16:49: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, to be fair to Alex and his work, I'll give them at least a few tries (starting with a "Maenads lead the way" Pangaea), but I must say my first impression is very negative. I fear this mod will effectively restricts the choice of scales (0->+3 instead of -3->+3), and that can't be good. That reminds me too much of the no-brainer choices we were offered in Doms 1. Plus, with that high growth, I fear we might see the a comeback of the high taxes/patrol routine that was overabused in Doms 1 - with the added benefit it now gives you extra corpses to reanimate.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

Alex's mods are now available at the illwinter site.

Re: Two new MODs from me
 

>Plus, with that high growth, I fear we might see the a comeback of the high taxes/patrol routine that was overabused in Doms 1

That's an excellent point that I did not account for. I'll do some testing with that.