Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

Just sent Illwinter/sunray another mod.

This one makes some mods to light cavalry which I felt needed more than the 3 strat move to justify it's cost.

Hope you guys like it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

Care to give us a summary of what you modified?

PvK

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

Something that might help me play Tien C'hi Barberian Kingdoms as a Horse Nomad nation - I must try this.

This could be very interesting regarding decisions I'm looking at around adjustments to light troops in the War of The Ring mod.

Thanks Alex.

cheers

Keir

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

From the file:


Ever since Dom1 light cavalry has had issues. Most LC has the combat power of militia or light infantry, at a cost of 2.5 times their infantry counterparts.

In Dom2 Illwinter attempted to upgrade LC by giving it a strategic move of 3. This helped, however fast movement on the map doesn't justify the heavy cost (in my opinion).

LC face problems as their hit and run battlefield tactics are difficult to model in Dominions. What they should do is circle around the enemy formations, making lightning strikes into vulnerable spots and withdrawing before the enemy can react properly. Since Dominions battles are toe to toe affairs this doesn't offer much to the LC.

What I have done is given LC extra attack and defense skill. This is an abstraction that represents that the LC aren't really sitting in front of the enemy troops. They are moving back and forth, exploiting weak spots and avoiding entanglements. They still have little or no armor, and die fast if they get hit.

I think this is a reasonable way to adjust LC and I am hoping that this will inspire players to actually use them.

Of course you may think LC are fine, or may disagree with the modification. No problem, don't use this mod. Play the game the way you like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Bonuses:
Very Light Cavalry (pro 7 and less) get +2 attack and +3 defense.
Light Cavalry (pro 8-10) get +1 attack and +1 defense.
Cavalry with armor 11+ got no adjustment, they use armor not speed.
I adjusted some Centaurs, as that seemed fair.
Also the Wolf Riders got benefits as I felt they are also LC.

[ January 15, 2004, 06:17: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

Did you include all the light cavs? There are quite a few - for example, TC, Arco, Horse Brothers, Tribals. Just curious, because I've been planning to mod the light infantries... and there are a WHOLE BUNCH scattered through all the unit numbers in the game.

Also, I have not figured out a use for shortbow LCs, with short range and bad precision, costing 3X indy archers but no better...

[ January 15, 2004, 06:19: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

If I missed any let me know, but I think I got them all. It wasn't as many as I thought there would be. Less than 20 I think. Keep in mind that I drew the line at cavalry that are very low on protection.

Yeah, light infantry, that would be a hard one. Good luck on that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Although I'm not going to have more fun with trying to mod all the mages precision stats. I'm stalling on that one because it's a real job.

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

You could give the archery 1.5x hp and a shield defense modifier (Say buckler or Kite without actually having the shield). This would be represented that when an arrow or a sword blow strike the cavalry unit a % of the damage is done to the horse and not the archer.

Without being able to change the straight forward tactics of the horsearchers this is the only way I could think that they would be on par with anything else cost efficent.

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Centaur Longbow will certainly be pretty scary with that high a defense and I would certainly think about using them again as I have moved away from them.

I'm not sure increasing LC's attack makes sense. You are representing there ability to get flank attacks etc and currently there is no mod for such things. Problem is it still applies in front on situations where LC could find themselves with higher attack than HC. Front on LC are not exactly high attack value troops.

Increasing LC defense makes perfect sense to me We already have examples of low prot/high def units that work so it is a viable approach and its a good abstractio of LC's ability to skirmish.

One of the fixs to LC is allowing them to fire then attack which does seem to be in the pipeline.

Cheers

Keir

[ January 15, 2004, 06:51: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...fortunately...

Once everything is in the simulator, I can set a parameter (if creature=human and resource cost less than 10) and autogenerate a mod. For example: (then gold -2, def +1, mrl -1, hp -1) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

One adjustment for LI, one for MI, and one for HI... then manually ensure everything looks right.

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

Hiya,

After failing to get Alex's mod off the dom library I quickly made up my own for Tien Ch'i and came up with what I believe to be an important break through in dealing with quality LC - fear.

The difficulty of simulating LC as that they are not involved in full on frontal combat but instead ride in shooting, throwing javelins, feint charges etc. High defense can simulate how hard LC are to catch but its harder to simulate the impact of the LC which is primarily on the cohesion/morale of the units attacked. If the LC involved are of low to moderate quality they will cause a few casulties but are unlikely to shake steady opponents. On the other hand if the LC involved are fierce and keen to close when the opportunity presents the results were described by ancients as terrifying.

So give low to moderate quality LC high defence, as Alex has suggested, to make it hard to shift and give the hard buggers (Huns, Xiongnu, Turkomans, Mongols, Szekeler etc) a fear ability to represent the greater stress they could apply. This is not just about fear but about representing the overall impact of aggressive LC.

So my Tien C'hi Barbarian Kingdoms mod gives the LC bucklers, raising both defense and prot, I've raised precision to 11 (ouch), removed the lance, tinkered with res cost and added fear -4 (good for pillaging). I've given the other cav precison 9 - lower than the LC to reflect the impact of heavy armor on shooting from horseback.

The changes in equipment and precision are to my understanding more accurate for what is being modeled and provide the HC with a clear role - the shock - while the LC are the multi role troops - generally either delaying and shooting or else attacking the flank. While there were lunatic LC with lance I have not heard that the Xiongnu of similar steppe nomads fought this way. My understanding is that the standard is a light lance able to be thrown and better classified as a spear till the weapon mod comes out - then I'll give them scimitars and a one shot light lance.

I'll do a bit of play testing then post the mod. Should provide me with the basic mounted troop types for the Easterling WoTR mod.

cheers

Keir

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

a question, how mods which deal with the same parameters (changing the same unit eg) supercede one another?

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

>a question, how mods which deal with the same parameters (changing the same unit eg) supercede one another?


I saw a comment from IW that suggested that mods that affect the same thing may be problematic in multiplayer. Seems the sequence of mod loading might be different on different machines. This might lead to different stats on things in the same game but on different PC's.

I'll do some testing and see how bad I can make it from my end.

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

>After failing to get Alex's mod off the dom library

Sunray has my mods on his site.
Illwinter told me they have them up on their site tonight.

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

>a fear ability to represent the greater stress they could apply. This is not just about fear but about representing the overall impact of aggressive LC.

Hrm, fear is supposed to be the supernatural kind.

After all, many troops/creatures in this game are downright scary (Emerald Guards, Knights, Summer Lions, Minotaurs) but don't generate extra fear beyond the normal morale affect by causing combat losses.

On the other hand I see what you're getting at. In many ways LC would cause a disruption in the enemy ranks due to the threat of being attacked from the flank/rear. Still, this is hard to model in the game as writen. I don't like the idea of using fear for this, as it would be applicable to a multitude of other troops as well (for a variety of reasons).


Perhaps an overall speed modifier?
The average tactical speed of each army could be measured at battle start. The slower army could lose speed and/or defense skill off their stats, as a simlation that they are limited due to the stresses of being outmanuvered. Of course we would have to get Illwinter to do this sort of thing, as it's beyond the mod tools capabilities.

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

I concur that these changes are welcome...They still aren't sufficient to make LC interesting to build IMHO http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
As long as "Skirmishing" can't be done, there's no rationale for using expensive LC to shoot instead of cheap foot archers, or unprotected LC for shock instead of sturdy HC...

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that fear is a great way to simulate the effect of LC with the current limitations. High defense against missile fire would be better than an overall increase in defense IMHO. I diagree with lowering the precision of armored cav. They were usually the nobles or other elite and were probably better with the bow. I look forward to giving your mod a run! Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Leadman

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Furthermore, I think a "Skirmish" order shouldn't be hard to implement:

if [distance_to_closest_enemy < own_AP / 2] then
move_back[ own_AP / 2 ]
endif

That should be enough to make LI and LC worth buying.

Re: Mod - Improved Light Cavalry
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you are defining things to cause yourself problems. Fear may generally be of the supernatural kind but the results of low fear, pillage bonus and wearing away enemies morale while they struggle to cause harm to you, makes sense for representing the impact of aggressive LC. Sure the term as generally used doesn't quite apply but this light stretch of imagination isn't too hard to make - if it actually works as a mechanism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Not then going furthur and extending it to Emerald Guards etc is a matter of remembering why it was given - to represent the impact the high wear down factor of aggressive LC. Anyway I can't know if its going to work till I test it. Heheheh - this will be fun.

I do not think this ability should be given to all LC. Much LC was low aggression and there to shoot arrows, worry at flanks and stay out of harms way. Fire and flee covers the way Pechnegs generally fought pretty darn well. Representing these LC's ability to skirmish by increased def seems a good approach for now.

I think Illwinter could have been a bit looser in giving out fear to really big creatures like Giants. Seeing the look on Gandalfs face as the Trolls burst through the gate at Minis Tirith was a good even if it would have been better with the Witch King coming through. I guess what held Illwinter back is that a Giant shouldn't be afraid of a Giant. Not having any Giant races in the WoTR mod I'll be giving Trolls a low fear rating.

re LC and missile fire.

Unfortunately for LC massed foot archery was pretty deadly and the only solution is to ride off or charge. Even small amounts of missile troops proved useful for supporting HI against LC. In dom its actually pretty easy to put arrow catchers out the front with orders to keep them out of harms way and this keeps the LC fairly safe.

I was thinking Last night about the Barbarian Kingdom HC. In the ancients rules I play these are currently represented as either charging cavalry or Cataphracts as there is evidence for wide spread usage of horse armour and the riders were heavily armoured. That being the case I'm going to upgrade the HC's armour which will aid the syncronicity between the LC's archery and HC's lances as their is nothing as frustrating as wiping out your HC with archery while they pursue the enemy off table.

I wish those bloody archers would ignore any target which has an intervening friends close to it. Its not like archers really did shoot into close combat with the threat of killing their own side unless directly instructed. They stopped, had a smoke, read the newspaper, made a cuppa and waited for the next opportunity . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

re prec for HC

I have actually raised this from what it was just not so much as the LC's. My understanding is that armor that was both full and heavy was a significant impairiment to firing a bow. Illwinter dropped all their precisions to 8 presumably due to the difficulty of firing a bow from horseback. I think this is way harsh on a peoples who learnt to ride before they walked, whose legs have changed shape from so much riding young, and who specialised in the useage of powerful powers with devestating results. It was the horse archer that was the basis of the success of the Mongol, Huns, Turks etc so having BK's most useful units as being foot and LC who can't shoot straight is why I made this mod.

Cheers

Keir