Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

I've always wondered why Arco, that's clearly a Seleucid-type post-Alexander army, had Hoplites and Hypaspists but not the core unit of those armeis, the phalangite (pikemen with medium armor and shield).
I know the historical argument doesn't stand much for Dominions, but from a gameplay viewpoint, it would *also* give an interesting choice in Arco armies : Phalangite would have same gold cost than a Hoplite, but have Hypaspist-level armor and resource cost(or slightly less).
Just a thought ...

[ January 16, 2004, 14:49: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What do you think mods are for? Now do your work and give us a Seleucid mod for Arco! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

yes dom some modding PDF! You dont even need graphical skill, as you can take the graphics of existing Arco units, and perhaps just altering their color with a filter.

I would like to see a decent cavalry for Arco too.

And how about a mod with Kataphractoi?

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

Thanks guys for the idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !

But I now have a problem : in Dom2 a pike is 2 handed, isn't it ? So the guys can't have shields as they had historically ...
Well, not a big problem, except for the graphics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif !

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

Pike is apparently not two handed. The new mod for Ulm sports a commander wielding a pike and shield.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A very good question. The hoplites and hypaspists of arcoscephale are among the oldest units in the game. I don't know why, but I decided against making phalangites (I believe I was afraid of too many historical paraphrases back then). Now I can only wonder they havn't been made at a later date.

The long spear of the hoplites is used as a Sarissa (greek 1h pike). There are no other weapon of this length (perhaps the whip) and I wanted the 2h pike to be the longest weapon. I agree that the sarissa of the phalangites should have longer weapons then the hoplites, but also shorter than pikes. As there is only one other unit wielding a long spear (Man) length will rarely matter in longspear - sarissa comparisons (arco being the only nation fielding long spears).

As weapon modding is not yet available (it will be in 2.07) I suggest that you use long spears for the time being.

Gold is based upon the unit and resources on the equipment. So you are right. They should cost gold as a hoplite (if they keep the stats) and have resource cost of a hypaspist (if they keep the equipment - unless the Sarissa is more costly).

I'm looking forward to this mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Do you have graphics yet? If you're lost I can extract some from the game and change the format, but it will take some time. If you can do it by your self, splendid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...but that's a mistake. I believe the commander is suppsed to have a broadsword.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...but that's a mistake. I believe the commander is suppsed to have a broadsword. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

Good stuff PDF.

You can give a unit a two handed weapon and a shield - you just shouldn't normally.

Selucid (and Macedonian) pikes were very definitly two handed weapons of much greater length than than 8-10 footers habitually used by Hopilites. However it was possible to fight using a two handed pike in rigid formation while having a shield slung over your shoulder (not a big one) and your arm through the grip but still holding the pike shaft. Another example of somehting similar is Varangian Guardsmen and Anglo Danish Huskarls of whom we have accounts fighting with a two handed axe and a kite shield hung over the in such a fashion that they could maintian it in a useful position while atrtakcing in a reptitive downward chopping motion operating in close order.

Selucid Kataphracts varied in morale and equipment and if you want a rough break down of the different unit catergories (Companions, Agema, Line Cavalry) let me know.

cheers

Keir

[ January 18, 2004, 02:01: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

Fine, 1h pike is what I need.
But I noted in game that the BK Pike armed commander graphics didn't sport a pike, but a sword :eek http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !

I've began my "Phalangit" mod, modding is really very easy now, thx IW ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

But I desperatly need HELP for a kewl Phalangite graphics, I sUxOrS at that ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

Well, thanks to all for the interest !

Phalangites : KO (I mean Kristoffer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), if I use long 1H spear, my phalangite will only be an under-hoplite and not have much interest... I'd rather give them a "real" 2H pike and buff their armor somewhat (chainmail hauberk ?) to give them a decent prot.

About the graphics I really suck at that and don't event know how to change colors to an image without ruining the background, so I definitely need help ..

Cavalry : looking at the current unit what I think is that overall, the Arco HC need an improved, high morale unit to represent Agema/Companions, and maybe another "medium cav" Lancer unit (meant for shock and not too much expensive, in fact it could be a cool unit). The current LC looks Ok (crappy as all LC but OK...).
Keir, I have some material, but be happy to discuss equipement issues http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As soon as I manage to find some time I'd post my units stats http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

there is a length 6 pike in Ulm BF, if its of interest to you

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

The lancers and cavalry of the greek era did not use stirrups used by knights and HC of later times. The lance was released upon impact as the rider prefered to stay mounted.

Therefore the arcoscephalean cav do not have lances but spears. On the other hand they might deserve elite medium cavalry such as the Agema.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

True about the stirrups, although that was because nobody had thought of them. Once exposed to stirrups it's not unthinkable that elite units such as Companions might also adopt their use. I always found it strange that indepdent Heavy Cavalry was better than what seemed intended to parallel Alexander's Companions -- arguably the most powerfull military unit of it's day.

Then again, Arcoscephale already has good troops, and doesn't exactly need the boost. It may be better if they have no cavalry (or equivalently, cavalry so bad nobody uses it).

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, I know..
I'm testing my Phalangites - and am amazed at how modding Dom2 is a breeze ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
But I gave them a Long Spear, you convinced me of that choice K.O... So Hoplites are to get "downgraded" to vanilla Spears - and I'm sure that this will make hordes of players yell and wish my death ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

As for cavalry I'd make 2 things :
* Give better armor to the spear-armed (no bow) Lt Cav, pretty useless now, as a kind of Medium cavalry.
* And create a new Agema Hvy Cav, marginally better equipped than the standard Arco HC *but* with a much better morale.
BTW, how to mod it to be capitol-only ?

In the end Arco Cav still won't be that good, but at least usable ...

Feedback *and* cool tga's for my Agema appreciated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good! I don't mind shorter spears on the hoplites, as it makes the long missing phalangites more interesting. Hoplites are less fun than sarissa-wielding phalangites.

Capitol only is currently site dependent. Pity.

Aha! I got an idea. You could use an existing site that allows you to recruit a rare unit. I would recomend 'Horses Vale'. It is unique, allows for recruitment of 'horse brother' #450 and 'horse brother' #451 (commander). Change the horse brothers into Agema and Agema commander/champion. Add the Horses Vale to the sites of the nation and voila!

[ January 18, 2004, 21:45: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

K.O,
Very neat idea about Horse Vale ! Will do that.
I'm just waiting for the tgas to finish my mod and send it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

But now I think I'll have too many Arco units, how to delete some ? (Cardaces suck, nobody build them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif )

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tgas on their way. Cardaces did suck historically as well, I believe.

Units from the Horses Vale does not affect the other ones I believe. There is a #clearrec command, but it clears all units, so you will have to reenter them.

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

re Lance use

There are some very interesting articiles around on Lance use pre the invention of the Stirrups. One that I read in Slingshot (Wargaming mag) was by a guy who jousts etc - and does it without stirrups on occasion. Sure he makes no issue of the fact that stirrups are really useful but he still can joust without them and his descripotion of why is very enlightning. It also confirms the widely held view that Companions were Lance equipped shock cavalry.

Companions are differentiated from all the cavalry around them by the fact that they are shock cavalry. If you give them a spear you are removing their historical role and I believe going agaisnt the overwhelming wieght of evidence - shock, lance armed, cavalry existed for over 1000 years before the arrival of the stirrup and superseded chariots in this role. Equipping Companions with a spear makes them the same as all the rest of ther cavalry from this period which the ancients differentiated then from - which they were not. Another example of early shock cavalry is Lydian Lancers.

If Companions let go of their lance (Sarrissa) at contact then why do we have descriptions of them fighting with broken Sarrissa? A Sarrissa had a butt spike on it and after it broke at impact Companions would often use the shortened lenght of wood with the butt spike as the spear head instead of drawing swords. You can theorise that this is impossible but for some reasons the ancients tell us it happened.

Sure you can equip Companions with spear if you want but you are going against the the generally accepted view that its was the Sarrissa was an early Lance and the Companions used it in a shock role.

Also it takes very little time to adopt tecnhonlogical inovations. The Avars turned up in europe ~500AD with the stirrup and it was adopted very rapidly by the Byzantines. Would Arco do less when everyone around them had stirrups. To me this is like giving Mictlan copper armour when they are surrounded by peoples (including indie's) using superior tech. Treating nations technology in abstract from each other is not very realistic. It was the isolation of Meso Ameriacn cultures that definied their poor level of military technology. Take them out of isloation and things bcome far rosier.

re. .tga's

I've been doing work on tga over the Last couple of days - capturing the images, cleaning them up etc and it does take awhile. Are the .tga's going to made generally available? I have vast amounts to work on and it would save me alot of time.

Cheers

Keir

[ January 20, 2004, 20:34: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

I have made some quick sprites in 'spooky sprites' and exported them as tgas. This was a rare occasion. PDF said he was unable to draw and I became stunned by the fact that I had ignored the phalangites when I made Arco. I felt sort of compelled to make them.

I do not intend to export 1100 sprites one by one, sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree, evidence for shock cavalry without stirrups is compelling, which always left me feeling the whole stirrups issue was exaggerated, even though it seems so rational.

I'm very curious to read this jouster's views on jousting without stirrups. Do you remember more about it, or perhaps have a link? Slingshot and Joust don't work well as search keys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is clear you are not from the WRG stable of games Jasper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Slingshot is "The Offical Journal of The Society of Ancients."

http://www.soa.org.uk/

With your range of interests Jasper you could do alot worse than Subscribe to Slingshot. I'm lucky in that my brother has recently arrived back from england with a subscription and vast piles of old ones.

I'll try and track done the number of the slingshot in question if you have no joy and I think the best key word for searching would be "Stirrups". I won't be on this group much for awhile so you might have to email me direct.

Pity that there is no easy way of getting the .tga's. I've been thinking of getting cunning and using images of wargames figures and seeing if I can make a nice .tga up from them. The amount of work involved in getting hold of attacking sprites, getting their size right, and then cleaning them up makes the idea of doing entirely new images appealling.

Ciao

Keir

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

I'd heard of Slingshot, but just couldn't remember who published it. Probably because I'm not a fan of WRG rules such as DBA. I don't have any oppurtunity to play miniatures anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I'm very much looking forward to the release of Armati 2 however, and am considering trekking to nearby Portland to hunt for competition.

BTW, I agree it's a pity that unit sprites aren't available as .tga. A simple script would suffice to translate all those locked up in "Dom" format...

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

Debate on the "lance", cont.
Companions Cav were indeed armed with a lance called "Xyton" or stg approaching http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , that was 12 ft long.
But the length of the spear is not relevant to the weapons'effect : as long as the cavalryman wasn't firmly stabilized with stirrups, he was effectively wielding a "spear".
OTOH however, the speed of the horse DID add to damage.
And the Companions lance was a "one shot" item, as it broke on impact or was dropped to avoid unhorsing, then the warrior drew its sword.
But Lastly the length of the lance itself gave a first strike advantage on "standard" 6-8 feet spears...

What would be needed to simulate it is a "downgraded" lance (dam 18-19 instead of 22 for example), not possible for the moment, we need weapon modding for that.

Either I have to equip them with "Long spears", Lance/sword, or even sword only. I don't think I can have them use a spear then a sword...

If IW have hindsight on this ...

Edited : finally I agree with Keir , it's more rationale to give them Lance+Sword currently.
The added "undeserved" bonus ain't that great, and it'll help Arco field a useful cavalry...

The standard Arco HC will also get "Long spears" to represent Thessalian HC - I'll also boost somewhat their crappy morale http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 21, 2004, 11:59: Message edited by: PDF ]

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

you can perhaps raise the str of the cavalryman by 2 points, and use a spear (which has the str added I think), to represent the fact that the horse give some more shock to the whole attack?

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

huhu, Nagot speak to us in english in our all-french games, and do the reverse in the forum. Time to stop playing 4 days in a row, Jacques http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

Nagot try to confuse us, in game or on the forums http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
Thx for the advice anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Back to my mod,
Pocus,
If I give them higher strength they will be advantaged in all rounds of battles - giving them a lance only give them a 1-round advantage, I prefer that - before being able to mod the Lance.

Another thing hit me : the Arco Mtd Cmdr is pure crap (Prot 6 !!), needs a good breastplate and a shield !
But I suppose it's the same unit that the "Indy" Mtd Cmdr, so I'd need to create another unit and scrap the old one from recruit list.

... but I realized I don't know how to "delete" a unit from recruitment list : how to do that ? Do I need to "clear" stg and list the whole set of units all over again ?

Re: Why doesn\'t Arco have Phalangites (Pikemen) ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pour piocher quelques bonnes idées, tu pourrais jeter un coup d'oeil à "De l'Art Equestre", par Xénophon (éd. Gallimard, en poche - mais mon exemplaire a ~20 ans, je ne sais pas si cette édition est toujours disponible).