I have a question about Satyrs
 

ok, been looking at Pangaea (i have not been able to play for a several weeks...), but anyways, i have been looking at Pangaea....and i have noticed something that has me confused....

Satyrs 1, 2, and 3....

They all 3 cost 10 gold, #2 and #3 both cost 3 resources, #1 costs only 2. They all three have the same hitpoints. #1 and #2 both have 0 protection, whereas #3 has protection of 2. Moral is the same across all three (8), Magic Resistance the same (13). Encumbrance is the same (3), strength is the same (11), Attack is the same (10), Defense is the same in #1 and #2 (12), #3 has Defense of 13. Same precision (10) for all 3 of them. They all have three have stealth and forest survival. The weapons are different though, #1 only has a spear. #2 has spear AND a javelin (i understand, for range), and #3 has spear AND buckler....

Ok, I can see the reason for maybe using Satyr #2 for a range attack (but really, why would you use this? I don't really see the purpose, unless you really have to way to get any type of archers, and the Centaurs (w/ Longbow) are just too expensive...I guess that could be a reason why?).

I can see the purpose in getting Satyr #3....if only for the buckler, giving it two points more protection and 1 point better defense.

Now, what is the purpose of using Satyr #1? Would your resources be that bad that you simply cannot afford 3 resources, so you have to drop to the 2 resource unit? Satyr #1 has nothing on the other 2 Satyrs EXCEPT for resources....everything else is either the same or worse....

So, what circumstances would a player recruit Satyrs #1?

Just wondering, that's all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

There is never any reason to recruit Satyr 1. If they were dropped to 8 gold they would be reasonable. The choice between 2 and 3 and 4 is tough. Berserk is very nice, but Satyrs live by their defense. On the other hand Satyrs have low morale. Probably 4 is better than 3. 2, though, is nice because javelins are much better in Doms II than Doms I. However, indy light infantry with javs are much better than Satyr 2, as they have protection 9 and a shield...

I think satyrs should have natural protection of 2 - not that it would help much, but they are partially covered in goat hide, which is incredibly strong - much tougher than most leather - so nprot 0 does not make much sense.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

The 3 basic 10 gold satyrs all suck. The one with javelins is better than the other two, but I would never build them, except possibly during early expansion where Javelins can be very effective.

The Revelers I'm not sure about; berserk could be nice, but they're so likely to die in one hit it's probably irrelevent. Maybe if they had Javelins I would consider them.

If you want low resource troops with Pangaea, go with the Centaur Warriors. Harpies, War Minotaurs, Hoplites, and Cataphracts are all decent -- although no longer as good as they were in Dom 1.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Sure there is a reason!

Suppose you have 90 resources available - you can build either 30 of Satyr #3, or 45 of Satyr #1, in one turn. So if you want units quickly, you can produce them at 150% the rate of the kind with bucklers. They are probably much more than 67% as effective as a Satyr #3, so you get a lot more combat power, quickly.

PvK

P.S.
Or if you have 2 resources left over, you can get a Satyr #1, instead of nothing.
Or if you have 4 resources left over, you could add two Satyr #1's instead of one Satyr #3.
Cannon fodder can make a big difference in the outcome of a battle.

[ January 16, 2004, 20:04: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, PVK. I bet he's taken Order 3, and just can't find a way to spend all his gold http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

With low-morale troops I'd rather have 30 with javelins than 45 without javelins... or 30 that have a chance of deflecting incoming projectiles instead of 45 with no chance. Although nobody knows what the chance is. Or was it posted somewhere?

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Lance absorbers, perhaps? Or fodder for Haunted Forest, Life After Death, Carrion Reanimation, Soul Drain, or the Ankh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes I agree...
the satyrs do suck.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

More patrollers? I dunno, I'm never quite happy unless I've spent every Last resource point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

~Aldin

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Oftentimes cannon fodder is very useful.

Or, if places in the rear with Hold and Attack, they can arrive when the enemy has a bunch of fatigue, but they are fresh, and so suddenly can compete with better units. Numbers help.

I've even done some good damage with Mictlani slaves (!!) ... when they arrive at just the right time. Actually, I have quite a few elite-2 Mictlani slaves (which still stink worse than Satyrs, but it's interesting). They always serve to at least distract the enemy for a while, and when then usually run away, the survivers end up getting to be experienced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excellent! Another arrow for the quiver. What a brilliant way to mix things up.

~Aldin

[ January 16, 2004, 22:13: Message edited by: aldin ]

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Feh! Apparently hitting Enter while selecting an icon = POST

[ January 16, 2004, 22:13: Message edited by: aldin ]

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Sartyr = Suck

Sartyr + Maenads + (Mass)Protection = impressive, but ultra-cheap force

I agree about type1, though - it's absolutly useless, even for patrolling, as you'll use Harpies for that.

A.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Mass protection improves the basic Satyrs, but works much better on troops that start with armor and/or have berserk. Centaur Warriors IIRC berserked with Barksin have 19 protection.

I can't think of any spells that make the unarmored satyrs worthwhile. Perhaps if you cast Wind Guide and Flaming Arrows on their javelins... But that's not easy to do for Pangaea, and besides would be more effective with the crappy independent LI.

Really, if you're playing Pangaea stay away from the unarmored Satyrs. Why use inferior troops when you have access to great troops like Centaur Warriors?

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Because you can raise a lot of them quickly in an emergency, and cannon fodder is useful to have some of, to reduce the attention on your stronger troops, and distract the enemy, etc.

PvK

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

They're roughly as resource efficient as Centaur Warriors, so this doesn't seem like an advantage to me.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Against lightning bolts and mind bLasts, they are more resouce efficient... in terms of HP/res and minds/res. But still, indy LI is better, because resources tend not to limit unarmored units.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Exactly. If you're looking for volume of fodder, you can do better than Satyrs. Then again, they do have pretty good MR for fodder... Hmmm.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

They
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">are stealthy.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">do 2 points more damage ...</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">are faster (can't recall from memory how much) and will run down most routing troops, and can "attack rear" more efficiently ...</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">they have less encumbrance ...
  than their human (indy) counterparts.</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> A.

[ January 18, 2004, 06:32: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Insignificant Differences:
Stealth:.. Useless for fodder.
Strength:. +1 strength over LI. Wow!
Faster:... +2 AP. Very usefull!
Less Enc:. Only because they're naked!

The key factors that make the Satyrs suck are complete lack of armor and 8 morale. Do you honestly think that +1 Strength and +2 AP makes up for this?!

Of course, you left out Satyr's real advantages: +2 HP, +2 Def, +3 MR, Recuperation. Still, these don't make up for 0 protection and 8 morale either.

Bah! Why am I arguing with you guys? If you want to use Satyrs -- by all means go for it. May as well take Turmoil 3 while you're at it.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Jasper! I'll take Turmoil 3 and make my Maeneds patrol, while I use Satyrs for fodder! AND I DON'T WANT TO THINK ANY DIFFERENTLY!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

We all know Satyrs are useless. The morale alone makes them totally useless for fodder, even in big bunches they rout before they are worth their cost.

Some people just try to see the good side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Worth the cost" is important. Hmmm... maybe if they cost... 7 gold... they'd be good! Yes... yes... bwahahaHAHAHA!!!!

...Sounds good to me. Semicivilized bumkins always get confused signing contracts - shiny things distract them.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

After playing around a little more, it looks like I have to eat my words. Unarmored Satyrs _do_ have a use!

Those with Javelins are quite effective against independents during early expansion. While independent LI might be better, you can't build them right off. Those Javelins really pack a punch, and if you're carefull the tacAI won't target your Satyrs -- so their low protection and morale don't matter. Of course, one slip and your Satyrs are massacered, but this doesn't happen often against the predictable independents.

This tactic may also make for effective raiding in the mid-late game, where Satyr's stealth would make them far outclass LI.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wonder how effective they'd be if you tried it against indies when you set the indie value to 7+? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Every bit as effective, you just use more. In fact, it probably works even better as with larger bunchs of troops a higher percentage of javelins hit.

IMHO there's not much point in playing with such high independent strength in single player however, as the AI opponents don't handle it well.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It slows me down, which is the point. The normal indies have many more troops and many of the provinces have exotic things like vampires and whatnot. The point is having a greater challenge. It also changes the complexion of the game when it becomes easier to knock off AI-controlled provinces than indie ones. The indies become effective buffer states, even for the AIs themselves.

Of course, everyone plays to their own style, and to have fun.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

I have recently played Pangaea with a dual9 medusa pretender. White centaurs with a lvl9 earth and nature blessing (berserk +6) become powerhorses, literally.
Sometimes I had satyrs with javelins on the rear, they protected my priests for the first two turns, then ran ahead to throw their javelins.

[ January 20, 2004, 10:28: Message edited by: Shuji Doyama ]

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Independents 7+ is much less of a challenge than independents set to 5 or 6. When playing on 9 I typically found independents who had only conquered a few provinces, while my expansion was not greatly slowed.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't able to get that to work so well, due to the expense. Perhaps it's a bit easier now that Medusa starts with Dominion 2.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How do you get them to guard for two turns, and then throw javelines? I can only get them to stay still with "hold and attack", but then they don't fire.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Well, it really costs alot, so I had to sacrifice... well, everything else. Since white centaurs do not require many resources, I have taken sloth3. To make up for the reduced income, I went for order/misfortune instead of hoarding maenads. Basic idea was a quick initial push, so I am thinking about a drain scale to buy growth, centaurs are expensive. A 9/9 pretender should be enough to research some basic spells (lvl4) even with Drain3.
Later in the game I hope to organize a massive bloodhunt for crafting soul contracts (exactly lvl4 research in construction, it can be achieved with my pretender God only).
For the satyrs, I have not managed to make them throw javelins after holding, so I had to put them far in the rear together with the priest so that it takes them at least two turns to get into the firing distance. The chances are that any troops sent to attack the rearmost enemy will spot them instead of the priest.

[ January 20, 2004, 16:29: Message edited by: Shuji Doyama ]

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I say stay away from Pangaea PERIOD ! Their archers are expensive and their mages are expensive. Perhaps someone might want to play the race if they want a challenging game.

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

Yes, Satyrs do suck, imo. What they really need is some natural protection and maybe a decent shield (something like 3 natural prot, round shield and javelins with mrl 10 would actually be usable). The Satyr Hoplites are generally ok but really need strategic move of 2. They're basically faster and have more stamina than humans and are rather lightly equipped on top of that but are still forced to slug 1 province a turn while troops like Hyapists, Legionnaires, Praetorians, City Guards etc go 2. This fact alone makes Satyr Hoplites useless for me when playing Pan.

[ January 20, 2004, 18:25: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

Re: I have a question about Satyrs
 

In Dom 1 Satyr Hoplites were the bulk of my mundane forces, as with move 2 and 14 protection they were very good. The drop from 14 to 12 protection has had a much bigger impact than I expected; before Satyrs often survived with some affliction and later recovered leaving you with a nice body of experienced troops. Now they seem to die much more easily.

On top of that, move 1 for protection 12 sucks. With strategic move 2 and a round shield they would be usefull again IMHO. What's more, this seems entirely reasonable and in theme, as the most closely equipped unit (Hypaspists) has just this.

Plus, if they carried a Hoplon (Round Shield) rather than a buckler, it would actually make some sense to call them Hoplites!

And while I'm thinking wishfully, why not ditch the two most useless satyrs and instead have one unarmored Satyr with Spear, Javelin, and buckler? Perhaps with similar equipment the Reveler might be usefull too.